Sharing and influencing ideas

I've always wanted to learn cool ideas about how to make things work better, more sustainably, for better food, or to help others.  When I moved out to the suburbs, I realized that I was seen as a bit of an oddball riding my bike around.  Then I started riding my kids on the trail-a-bike, and then the double trail-a-bike. I realized I hadn't known about trail a bikes until I saw someone else with one. Then I wanted to know.

I am curious about how you learn ideas from your neighbors in the suburbs about sustainability, permaculture etc. and how you share those ideas.  Most Americans live in the suburbs, so if we are going to become more sustainable, we have to influence a lot of people.  Where do you get ideas about sustainability in your community, and how do you think you share those ideas?

John S
PDX OR

Interesting question! I'm lucky that the idea of sustainability was behind the original design of my street. It was created for people relocated from other areas after a war, so the entire street was designed in a way to let them support themselves - mainly by growing their own food. Everyone had a long, narrow piece of land behind the house for growing food (they could also keep rabbits, chickens, ducks and pigeons - some still do), and a small garden in front of the house for ornamental plants and flowers. Sadly, people are forgetting about this and the newcomers not always follow it. Now that there is a new neighbourhood built, they seem to want to make it look more like a city and less like a village.

The other day I went to a local spot to inquire about their compost.  I asked where the material was sourced and quickly deduced that it wasn't what I'd consider clean.  I left without making a purchase.  I try to be as principled as possible in my dealings, even if it hits the pocket book.  I would like to think that a message was sent, but I doubt it.

I've also reached out to a local acquaintance and offered some land for him to manage a la Greg Judy.  He also will get any surplus from my garden to sell if he wants.  I don't care to make a profit off of either endeavor.  If I can help him get established then it is mission accomplished.  

I could go around knocking on doors and question everyone about why they continue to poison our land, water, and air, but the bottom line is that they are only doing what they know and what barely keeps them in the black.  I suppose it's hard for them to change course when they've got millions of dollars invested in machinery and infrastructure to feed Cargill and the like.  Maybe if their soils weren't devastated and dependent upon those inputs they could afford to do something different.  As things stand, it seems they'd have to accept annual losses for quite some time on a gamble that the average consumer is willing to put their money where their mouth is.  

Aside from trying to "lead by example", I draw inspiration from history.  For example, today I was looking at my struggling tomato plants and watched a bunch of videos about how to be more successful.  I quickly realized that I'd prefer to do something else and so I began pondering how people ate (outside of the Americas) before the introduction of the tomato.  It wasn't difficult for me to adapt to a situation in which I'm eating well despite not producing what many consider a necessity.

Cooking skills go a long ways in this regard.  I've been eating a lot of tabouleh as of late.  My first attempt at growing parsley is going about as well as the tomatoes.  I'm looking forward to trying a similar preparation but substituting sweet potato leaf (and other greens) for parsley, sumac (grows wild) for lemon (not local), cucumber (easy) for bulgar (not local), and sandhill plum (wild) for tomato (not easy for me).  Might not be what a real chef would do, but seems worth trying.  

In summary, I guess I think talking to my neighbors is tantamount to mental masturbation with a sadomasochistic element.  I'd rather exercise my own imagination and self-expression to demonstrate how much better life can be when one stops just going with the flow.  It's probably not going too far out on a limb to assume you are the right person to lead change in your neighborhood.  

Where I live, my neighbours think that owning an electric car is the most ecologic friendly thing one person can do, but of course, none has the money to buy one. Those with some ecological conscience, do separate waste for reciclying and that's it, mission accomplished.

I have a bicycle, but don't get to use it much. Always in a hurry, I ride the scooter bike instead, or drive the car for long distances. Since electric scooters became popular, we are "allowed" to use the first car lane for bicycles. However, this means that now we are not allowed to ride outside the car lane or the bicycle track. I was scolded by a policeman who saw me riding the sidewalk. Ok, fine. I'll stay on the car lane. Except now I want to ride with my boy, and I don't dare to let him ride in the car lane. He can ride the sidewalk, but not me. I can ride the car lane, but not he. He must wear helmet but I am allowed to ride without. It's crazy.

I wish I had neighbours I could get inspiration from, but in my condo not even the plants that were originally planted in the gardens are respected, most balconies are empty of life and the lawn around the swimming pool has been replaced by plastic.

So, you have to go to ecologist meetings or to urban gardens if you want to meet someone who cares about the environment for real. I was in a meeting in an urban garden recently where a few ecologist organisations had an event and they talked about climate change issues. They were mostly concerned about a few old city trees that were replaced by some palm trees. Probably for a juicy commission. And about driving too much that is causing the planet temperature to rise... They reminded me of myself twenty years ago. And I know I cannot talk to these people about permaculture because around here, permaculture is something only pagan hippies do, and it involves being high on pots or being a little nuts.

I work in my local garden as volunteer and I am lucky enough that my partners allow me to do some permaculture here. I guess I am trying to influence my neighbours by the example. Only that my example is not very impressive, truth be told, without irrigation and expending so little time in the garden. Recently, we started a YouTube chanel, hoping to give our project more visibility.
Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JacTV-ihEuQ&t=15s

I like your video.  I grow many of the same plants here.  What was the first fruit tree you had that you said can produce fruit with very little rainfall?  You are going to have a lot of fruit in a few years.  That is a good way to inspire people.

Yes, I think that electric cars will some day be the most popular, but right now they are expensive, especially if, like me, you are used to buying old cheap cars and riding bikes.  The beauty of a trail a bike, is that your kid is connected to you.  He/she pedals and learns to lean and even brake, but they can't veer off away from you because you are hooked together. There are other brands and models too.  

There is also a Catholic Homesteaders Group, listed here on permies: https://permies.com/t/31030/permaculture-projects/Catholic-Urban-Farming-Community

You don't need to be Catholic, but maybe your neighbors would be less anxious about permies in a Catholic country like Spain.

Sometimes I think that the biggest draw for others is just having delicious, inexpensive fruit and showing it to your kids at different times of the year. Not very much work, pretty to look at, lots of good stuff to eat.

John S
PDX OR

John Suavecito wrote: What was the first fruit tree you had that you said can produce fruit with very little rainfall?

Jujube. It's called azufaifo in spanish.
Recently it has started to decay. I hope it can make it this summer. It's scorching hot in the garden and we are just in June!!

I think one of the keys to influencing others is for them to see you getting great food, organically, that looks good and has minimal effort.  For example, here in the PNWet, peaches and nectarines are tremendously difficult to grow.  The tree often looks like *%&$#!.  And yet, plums and pie cherries are very easy to grow.  Many people get interested or jealous when they find out how much of those I can grow with limited effort, and how I even have a lot that I can share with poor people at the food bank.  I don't think they would be inspired by seeing my peach trees suffer, look ugly and black, giving no fruit and making me work hard with compost tea and biodynamic remedies while still providing nothing in most years.  Most people are busy, I think, and only willing to buy in for limited efforts, most of the time, until they see more results.

John S
PDX OR

Flora Eerschay wrote:Interesting question! I'm lucky that the idea of sustainability was behind the original design of my street. It was created for people relocated from other areas after a war, so the entire street was designed in a way to let them support themselves - mainly by growing their own food. Everyone had a long, narrow piece of land behind the house for growing food (they could also keep rabbits, chickens, ducks and pigeons - some still do), and a small garden in front of the house for ornamental plants and flowers. Sadly, people are forgetting about this and the newcomers not always follow it. Now that there is a new neighbourhood built, they seem to want to make it look more like a city and less like a village.

So true but... there are exceptions when it comes of being consciences  in regards to food sustainability and growing your own by young people. A lot has to do with location.
(There is not much one can grow in central Warsaw just like in central Toronto if one lives in sky scarpers or is bound by by-laws, and I haven't heard of such a thing as a "share garden", like there are empty lots  in USA or  (allotments?)  in UK.  
I do know that many people; young and older generation are growing their own vegetables, but it's against the law to sell produce out  lets say... by the road side like you can see in USA and Canada. Not so  much meat (to share there ) as it is an expensive commodity.

Government rules, by-laws , cranky neighbors has a lot to do with what one would like to do on there piece of land.
I'm in Canada, and while many places are O.K. with people growing their own produce, most have stupid by-laws that have absolutely nothing to do with government, by-laws or cranky neighbor. Common sense is written off and trying to "fight some  it with reason", is simply not worth it. I would need 2 lifetimes or more, to "fight it". I don't have those :-)

In my neighborhood, we have a share produce group. People mostly trade something for something else. Maybe in Canada you could do that? It's interesting to look at laws and regulations in other countries.  Sometimes there are things you can do that you didn't think of.

For example, Portland has a Portland Fruit tree Project, and many other cities have this.  Most fruit trees have already been growing in the yard when someone buys the house.  They may not know or care to take care of it.  You ask them if you can take care of it to get the fruit.  You take care of it. Half of the fruit goes to poor people, and you get the other half.
John S
PDX OR

I'm outside St. Louis and have met folks through the community college horticulture program as well as the urban gardening and foodscaping community. A few of us have recently banded together to start a work share group. Tomorrow we're sheet mulching a front yard for a food forest!

It seems like there are always some like minded folks around but it takes some organization and effort to get the ball rolling on actually meeting up and sharing ideas and collaborating.

Good luck!

Setting up a booth at the farmer's market.

If a person is growing some perennial vegetables, setting up a booth at the farmer's market would be a great way to find people for sharing and influencing ideas.

Most farmer's markets have annual vegetables.  How many perennial vegetables have you seen at the farmer's market?

I vision people stopping to ask "what is that" and then the booth holder can explain about permaculture and perennial vegetables.

So, it’s hard to know how much impact this had, but I was the president of our neighborhood civic association for quite a few years. (I only took the role because it would have been disbanded otherwise, and around here civic associations are your best defense against ugly land use decisions  by the county or local businesses. ) Four times a year I had to write a newsy article for a newsletter that went to 800 households. I regret to say I usually wrote them in a hurry, as I worked long hours at my job, but occasionally I would try and slip in a nudge about resilient landscaping, the advantages of preserving mature trees in the yard, the problems with letting your yard be hosed with chemicals to kill mosquitoes and spiders, mowing your leaves under instead bagging them at the curb, etc. I used the term “your sanctuary” a lot when nudging in the direction of a bio diverse garden, and often focused on the cost savings of doing the right thing. Still, every time a young family moves in, I see lovely mature trees get chopped down and Chemlawn trucks seem to be as numerous as ever. But it was a good opportunity to subtly change minds, and if folks here get the opportunity for something like that I would recommend it.

Perennial vegetables at farmer's markets I've seen: Jerusalem artichokes /sunchokes, asparagus, artichokes, Leeks are kind of perennial, because they make little baby leeks next to them.  I just chop the green above ground parts. That way it just keeps growing.  We have a lot of groovy weirdos like me out here, so you can occasionally find strange things like crosnes or apios americana.
John S
PDX OR

Another thing to do is to be on an urban homestead tour...and I realize not every community has this...but we have one every summer (except for the last two years cuz of covid).

Some homesteads use permaculture and some don't - it is very helpful for people to see how to set things up and see permaculture in action so to speak.  My hope is to be on the tour next summer if we are here (we are looking for an acreage now).

For me, it has helped me to meet and network with fellow gardeners/permaculture gardeners and farmers.  It is where I first learned about biochar

I try to be visible about what we are doing, and be outside a lot. I know that in some parts of the world there's very few people out on the streets, but any chance you get to say hi to neighbors and talk about what you are doing. Where we live water is an issue, so I try to mention my rainwater catchment system--part of which is visible on the front of my house--as often as possible. I know that two neighbors have installed similar systems after talking to us, but it'd be great if there were more. So I will keep mentioning it as often as possible.
Here in Mexico, everyone uses Whatsapp and every neighborhood has whatsapps groups. Sometimes multiple groups because there is often an official group only for official communication from the HOA or for safety issues. Then there is another buy/sell/trade group.  These groups are a great way to share ideas and also share any produce you might have.

I live in Australia, and the suburbs too, and created a vegetable and fruit trade group for my suburb. Only my suburb (deliberately, to make it easy and convenient to trade, make genuine connections etc). Its word of mouth and started through a small messenger group. (Very little effort involved, it was easy to start).
People in that group also invite other interested people they know from this suburb.

We all got together and sat down and chatted the first couple of times. I think in terms of local community building as a big strength and the way of the future. There are also very little fuel costs involved, or short distances to walk if things got any rougher in the world..

So when you take your stuff to their place, they often show you around and vice versa. They spark new ideas within you for sustainability and vice versa. Its great. And with rising inflation, its reassuring.

I dont particularly live in a self sustainable type community, but just have provided a space for likeminded folks to meet and trade.

The group is small but small is good.

Good luck. I like the way youre thinking!

("Build community in your own backyard". I heard this whispered to me, so I did it, and am glad I did! Keep going folks! Together we can bring in a better world! It involved a bit of thinking at first, but was honestly so easy to do!)

Great first post, Amy!

Hi. Of course suburbs in the Netherlands are different from those in the USA. Riding a bicycle (of any type) here is a very normal thing to do. Growing vegetables in the garden too (at least there were traditional veggie gardens, in front and/or back or side yards until not so many years ago).

So what can people in the suburbs teach permaculturists? I think it is: living close to each other. Being good neighbours. Taking into account you are not the only one living there, f.e. no loud noises when the neighbours (or their children) sleep.

Here in our local permaculture community (Permacultuur Meppel) we do a little more. With permission of town council we have an educational permaculture garden in a park. As a group of volunteers we work there together every Saturday morning. We do the needed gardening work and have good conversations, both with each other and with interested visitors. It functions like cross-pollination

This is my favorite TedTalk that addresses this topic from a permaculture perspective:



I've shared this in other threads. It is such a meaningful video. This couple took Holmgren's permaculture community teachings and applied it on their own street, transforming it into a community.

I liked this one, Kim.  It presents a human face to all the sustainability goals. You don't have to have a Phd, a company, or a license to do this.  Like you could further sustainability if you were just a regular person.  Which you can.

John S
PDX OR

I talk a lot about what I am doing with my yard, and I have been giving suggestions to friends about permaculture based ideas for their homes. While I am happy to spend a great deal of time reading and learning about the Permaculture ways, I find that others are less interested.

I offered to help out with some yard cleanup at one friend's house yesterday. I was able to deter them from having the city come and vacuum all their leaves. I also convinced them to collect the fallen branches and such and we made a sort of hugel in one spot and a leaf berm along the perimeter of the yard. I suggested some plants that would do well in their location. And learned about some other design elements they would like to incorporate as well.

My buddy was more receptive to my way of looking at his yard, but I got a sense that his wife was more skeptical, and perhaps they hadn't really talked about having me offer guidance.

Ideally I would sit down with them and help them work out a design, but I saw an opportunity to get them to keep all the materials in the landscape and pushed it on them. I feel a little uncomfortable about that, but I think it was a push they needed.

I plan to sit down with them and find out more about their vision soon. I feel like drawing them a plan or having them make a vision board will help put them on a better path, and give them the sense of ownership of the project. I also know that it's their yard and they can do what they want.

I'm sure someone else here has had a similar experience, what are some ways to help convert non-permies besides just throwing books at them?

If they are willing to let you develop your ideas for the garden as designer and then maintain what you did, that's one way to make things. Many garden owners pay for that service you are willing to give for free.
If you want them to get involved in the design, that's a different issue. That's hard work and requires a specific mindset. I would read about the Wheaton's ecoscale before trying to convince the lady. You will have more success if you offer her solutions appropriate for her current level.

I often think that we have to find that motivating link that will get them excited. For some, it's the taste of home grown fruits or vegetables.  If you offer them a piece of home grown fruit, few will say no.  For others, it's saving money. I just told a neighbor that they don't have to pay someone to haul off their leaves. They're good for the garden.  Some people who work a lot of hours will be amazed to realize that if they have a backyard food forest, they don't have to travel far to go out into nature and relax.  Some people are birders, who love to see them in their backyard.  Some people will be excited to see the organic vegetables are essentially free when they come home from Whole Paycheck and realize how much money we're saving.  I think it's a different motivation for each person.

John S
PDX OR

Abraham, that is true I am likely at a different level on the eco scale. Not so far from them I seem crazy though. I also think patience may be in order to let them get to the "Ah ha!" moment

Brent Bowden wrote:Abraham, that is true I am likely at a different level on the eco scale. Not so far from them I seem crazy though. I also think patience may be in order to let them get to the "Ah ha!" moment

I wish you success!

Update : I talked to my friend and it turns out that they are both actually quite interested. I think maybe my nudge out of their comfort zone was just a little overwhelming. As I suspected, patience may be the key.