SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
The holy trinity of wholesomeness: Fred Rogers - be kind to others; Steve Irwin - be kind to animals; Bob Ross - be kind to yourself
SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
It is a privilege to live, work and play in the traditional territory of the Salish People.
Now drop and give me 52... ~ Come Join the permies Shoecamp! ~ All about Permies, including Tutorials ---
Give me an Adventure!
SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
Mike Haasl wrote:Thanks Jordan! It's a full size, store bought fridge (not particularly efficient). Thanks for the links, I'll delve into them. By still being grid connected, I could always charge the batteries if needed until I get the system sized and working. Assuming I can get it working.
It is a privilege to live, work and play in the traditional territory of the Salish People.
Now drop and give me 52... ~ Come Join the permies Shoecamp! ~ All about Permies, including Tutorials ---
Give me an Adventure!
SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
The holy trinity of wholesomeness: Fred Rogers - be kind to others; Steve Irwin - be kind to animals; Bob Ross - be kind to yourself
SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
jordan barton wrote:just my two cents here.
Our setup is 6-340w solar panels. I believe they are wired in series so 3 panels are in series and than those are connected together in parallel.
The solar panels are about 100 feet from where the batteries are located. We are using Tek Cable which has 3 wires which are 10AWG.
We have 4 - 6v 370AH Lead acid batteries which are wired in series so that we have 24VDC. So 24vdc x 370ah = 8800Wh. or 8.8KWH(i think?) With them being Lead acid we only actually have 4.4kwh
We are currently running a 5.1 CF danby AC freezer and it is kicking our butt. Almost every day we need to run the generator for about 2 hours. At least right now when the sun is so low.
So needless to say i think your system wouldn't cut it to be honest Mike. Unless you are wanting to run a generator. Also that fridge is sure sucking up a lot of juice!
I think our freezer is 197KWH/Year so 197/365 = 539wh a day.
The big thing to figure out is what will be your usage when it is cold and when there is no sun out. Also when the sun will be low.
Here is one thing which will help you out. Energy audit and sizing tool
Another thing to look at is what voltage you need to have the minimum line loss. Voltage drop calculator
Feel free to ask other questions mike!
Country oriented nerd with primary interests in alternate energy in particular solar. Dabble in gardening, trees, cob, soil building and a host of others.
It gets down to -30F here so I suspect batteries would need to live in the house.
Argue for your limitations and they are yours forever.
Mike Barkley wrote:
It gets down to -30F here so I suspect batteries would need to live in the house.
Since your primary need is not in the house I would consider putting the batteries in a small temp controlled insulated enclosure in the barn near the panels. It will use some electricity to keep them warm in winter but without doing any math yet I'd be willing to estimate it will be less loss than running long wires (AC or DC) into the house.
'Theoretically this level of creeping Orwellian dynamics should ramp up our awareness, but what happens instead is that each alert becomes less and less effective because we're incredibly stupid.' - Jerry Holkins
Mike Haasl wrote:Thanks for those excellent options Michael!
To elaborate on the pump a bit, it's a shallow sand point well. It's on 120V and I have a note that it's 1080W (I'm not at home at the moment so I can't look at the nameplate right now). It fills a 5 gallon pressure tank and kicks on and off automatically based on the pressure in the tank. When it kicks on it runs for 70 seconds, pumps 5 gallons and uses 0.021kwh (per an experiment where I watched the meter spin as the pump ran).
I don't have any elevation to work with so I'd have to use some sort of timer and a large pressure tank to allow it to not run at night.
When I get home I'll get more pump nameplate info and plug the Kill-a-watt into the freezer to check its consumption.
'Theoretically this level of creeping Orwellian dynamics should ramp up our awareness, but what happens instead is that each alert becomes less and less effective because we're incredibly stupid.' - Jerry Holkins
Michael Qulek wrote:The first and foremost thing you have to do is to do an itemized audit of what you want to power BEFORE you start buying anything The single most prevalent place where people fail is that start buying inadequate stuff BEFORE they know what they need.
Things like the frig, freezer, lights, and TV are easy. Just running those things at my cabin I'm consuming about 2-3 kWh of power each day. The item that you mention that catches my eye though is the well-pump. That potentially might be the single biggest power user on your whole place. Is it doable, sure. I"ve run my well-pump exclusively on solar for years now.
First, is your well-pump AC powered? Is it 120VAC or 240VAC? Do you know the running and starting wattage? There might be a placard displaying all this information, or you might have to determine it yourself. I myself had to take the latter route. I bought a "clamp meter" that has the capability to read "inrush current". I now have two, a very expensive Fluke 274, and a cheaper Uni-T 216C. Both can read inrush, and both are accurate to within 1% of each other. With the inrush meter I found that while my pump needs 2230W to run, it needs about 8930W for 1-2 seconds to start.
How is your well-pump controlled? Does it come on any time of the day and fill a bladder tank, or does it run continuously when you turn on a tap. Does it fill an elevated tank and then shut off?
I myself have an elevated tank which gets filled during the day when I have solar, and then flows downhill at night when the power is off. Before installing the solar system I used a generator to power the pump.
How your pump provides your water will be critical to plan a solar system that can power your pump. The least expensive strategy might be to build the smaller system, but power the pump via generator only, but that will depend on how the pump is controlled.
Let's put together two suggested systems based on whether or not you need to run your pump.
24V System 1 can provide 4-8 kWh of power per day
6 250W grid-tie panels, wired in 3S2P (cheap on Craigslist right now. Buy locally instead of mail order; it will be far cheaper) 75$ X 6 = 450$
4 6V Trojan L-16 lead-acid batteries 350$ X 4 = 1400$
60A Epever Tracer 6415AN charge controller (I have the higher quality Midnight 200V controller) 270$ Midnight is ~670$
24V Sine-wave inverter Samlex 24V 2000W for about 650$ Schneider 24V Conext 4024 4000W for1500$. The Samlex is a cheaper high-frequency inverter with little inrush capability. The Conext is a low-frequency split-phase 120VAC/240VAC sine-wave inverter with a built in generator charging circuit. I have the Conext for my workshop and that is what I would recommend.
48V System 2 can provide 8-16kWh off power per day with 12 panels, or 14-23kWh with 18 panels.
12-18 250W grid-tie panels, wired in 3S2P (cheap on Craigslist right now. Buy locally instead of mail order; it will be far cheaper) 75$ X 12 = 900$
8 6V Trojan L-16 lead-acid batteries 350$ X 8 = 2800$; 18 panels = 1350$
60A Epever Tracer 6415AN charge controller 270$; 100A Epever Tracer 6415AN charge controller 570$ (I have the higher quality Midnight 200V controller) Midnight is ~670$
48V Sine-wave inverter Schneider XW-Pro 6848 sine-wave inverter. The XW is a low-frequency split-phase 120VAC/240VAC sine-wave inverter that can surge to 12000W for 60 seconds. It has a built in generator charging circuit.
What you might want to do besides placing panels on your roof is to build ground mounts like I have. These single pole mounts can be rotated left to right to catch more early morning and late afternoon sun. By rotating east to west, I can run my 240VAC well pump from 8am to 4pm with zero battery drain.
The last thing will be breakers, power boxes, and switches, that can add up to several hundred dollars. I have a power center with all the breakers to control the both the DC and AC side of things.
Instead of powering just a few circuits, you can also get a transfer switch or either/or breaker panel to wire the solar system directly into you house panel. Then your power becomes transparent. There MUST be a control that prevents your power from ever going into the grid during a blackout. Lineman's lives are threatened if you energize a circuit they think is dead. It might be best to have a professional electrician do this for you, because lives are at stake here.
'Theoretically this level of creeping Orwellian dynamics should ramp up our awareness, but what happens instead is that each alert becomes less and less effective because we're incredibly stupid.' - Jerry Holkins
'Theoretically this level of creeping Orwellian dynamics should ramp up our awareness, but what happens instead is that each alert becomes less and less effective because we're incredibly stupid.' - Jerry Holkins
Mike Haasl wrote:By still being grid connected, I could always charge the batteries if needed until I get the system sized and working.
Children, Rabbits, Chickens, Bees
D Nikolls wrote:All the loads listed are in the house? You'd need to put the inverter/s in the barn too, and then run AC wires to the house. I see no advantage at all, myself...
SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
D Nikolls wrote:
An important upside of either movable arrays or multiple differently angled arrays, is that a day with 2h of late or early sun can give a LOT more juice if a few panels are aimed right. For max annual watts, the sweet spot is south, but my experience off grid has been that a couple extra KWh on an otherwise cloudy day is more useful than 10KWh on a fully sunny day.
Multiple arrays are generally best served by multiple charge controllers. Epever is very affordable; I 'd rather run something higher quality, IMO it's usually cheaper in the long run.
D Nikolls wrote:
Michael, how long have you had your Schneider gear? Have you had to deal with their support people at all? have heard some shitty stuff about them for both support and longevity, but nearly bought one anyhow, the split phase 240v from a single unit was very tempting... I went with Victron, not 100% perfect from a software or support perspective but solid.
I have had no issues running a 3/4HP jet pump for extended periods while irrigating, off 120V from a single 3000VA Multiplus..
Argue for your limitations and they are yours forever.
Michael Qulek wrote:
D Nikolls wrote:
An important upside of either movable arrays or multiple differently angled arrays, is that a day with 2h of late or early sun can give a LOT more juice if a few panels are aimed right. For max annual watts, the sweet spot is south, but my experience off grid has been that a couple extra KWh on an otherwise cloudy day is more useful than 10KWh on a fully sunny day.
Multiple arrays are generally best served by multiple charge controllers. Epever is very affordable; I 'd rather run something higher quality, IMO it's usually cheaper in the long run.
With my equipment, I have not found that to be true. One controller handles 6 arrays just fine with a Midnight combiner box. Each individual string of panels gets it's own breaker so all are electrically protected.
I am what is called "over paneled". That means my a solar arrays can produce more power than the controller is designed to handle. I keep some arrays pointed SE, while others are pointed SW. That keeps the noontime amps within the amp limit of my Midnight controller. As a fail-safe though, my controller is programmed to clip off at 65A for "just in case". The extra panels help out on the cloudy days that would shut down other systems. I can still produce ~600W in the rain, and I've never even come close to depleting my battery bank.
D Nikolls wrote:
Michael, how long have you had your Schneider gear? Have you had to deal with their support people at all? have heard some shitty stuff about them for both support and longevity, but nearly bought one anyhow, the split phase 240v from a single unit was very tempting... I went with Victron, not 100% perfect from a software or support perspective but solid.
I have had no issues running a 3/4HP jet pump for extended periods while irrigating, off 120V from a single 3000VA Multiplus..
The answer is 5 years and two years. I installed my 48V cabin system in 2016. That's with a XW+6848 Schneider inverter that puts out split-phase 120/240V. I liked Schneider so much that I installed a second Conext 4024 in my workshop. All my equipment as worked flawlessly for this time, so I've never had to call tech support. Yes though, I hear it's not very good. It seems that Schneider is focused primarily with large professional installations, and they don't want to be bothered by DIYers
One tool every off-gridder should have is a clamp meter that can read "inrush current". The one I like now is the Uni-T 216C. When set to "inrush", it can measure the starting current that a motor-driven appliance draws in the first half-second after turning on. Your pump is 120V? Mine is 240V. The refrigerator is FAR easier to start, with a startup surge of about 500W. The well-pump has a startup surge of ~8900W. These are the values I've measured. Without measuring it, I'd guestimate your pump is drawing 3000-4000W right at startup, then drops down to about 1000W running.
This clamp meter is a bit pricy at 75$, but it has features that cheaper meters don't provide. A budget meter can only read AC current. The higher priced ones read both AC and DC current. Next in the cost scale is inrush, and up at the top is reading RMS current. I don't think RMS is something an off-gridder is ever going to need though.
'Theoretically this level of creeping Orwellian dynamics should ramp up our awareness, but what happens instead is that each alert becomes less and less effective because we're incredibly stupid.' - Jerry Holkins
D Nikolls wrote:
The theory is that with different orientations feeding one array, there will(may?) be multiple 'peaks' visible to the controller, and it could lock on to the wrong one, meaning reduced power.
I have also read that shifting sun/shade conditions are more challenging for the controller with differently oriented arrays..
So... in practice does it matter? Don't know for sure!
SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
Mike Haasl wrote:Would you put the charge controller in the basement (150' from the panels) or in the barn?
SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
Mike Haasl wrote:Thanks Jeff!
Just checked the freezer and it's used 0.32 kw in 27 hours. So 0.284 kw per day
SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
Come join me at the 2024 SKIP event at Wheaton Labs
www.gaiauniversity.org
Blazing trails in disabled homesteading
Your friend isn't always right and your enemy isn't always wrong.
The best place to pray for a good crop is at the end of a hoe!
Phil Swindler wrote:Last March we installed a grid tied system on our roof...
The electric bill we paid for this last December was $11.53. That was all just taxes and fees. We haven't paid for any actual electricity since August. If we didn't air condition, we wouldn't have paid for any electricity since April.
We don't have battery backup. But, if you can pull that off with your budget, I would encourage you to go for it.
Blazing trails in disabled homesteading
Mary Cook wrote:...By the way we have a well pump--my husband tries to always run it when the sun is shining, which saves the energy lost when power goes into the batteries and then back out. Our water is stored in four 55-gallong plastic drums upstairs and runs by gravity feed down to a kitchen and bathroom sink. pressure tanks take quite a lot of power I think...
Is that almond roca? Did you find it in the cat box? What is on this tiny ad?
Support permies and give beautiful gifts to gardeners: permaculture playing cards.
https://gardener-gift.com/
|