2 hours to go! click here for the kickstarter
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • r ranson
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Leigh Tate
  • jordan barton
stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • paul wheaton
  • Liv Smith
master gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Jay Angler
  • John F Dean
gardeners:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Beau Davidson
  • Heather Sharpe

Sourdough starter sources

 
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
About ten years ago I started making sourdough and regularly made all our bread for several years. When we moved cross country, since we were driving for two weeks in the summer, I decided not to bring my starter with us, that I could always start again. Over five years later and I still haven't got a new sourdough starter.

My question is, since I have been unable to find a local person generous enough to share their starter, should I buy from a company or try to start my own?

Previously I bought a powdered one from I don't remember where. It went through a funky transformation in the first month and then settled down to a nice sweet starter. I've always thought that the original yeast died off and was replaced by local wild yeast.

I've been thinking about buying some from Azure Standard. But I wonder if something similar will just happen again, that a local wild yeast will just take over anyway no matter what I actually buy. So maybe I should just skip the part where I spend money. Though maybe there is a benefit to starting with some kind of yeast anyway?

Thoughts? TIA!
 
pollinator
Posts: 161
Location: Southeast corner of Wyoming
44
urban fiber arts
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Many of the starters online do have good reps.   However there may be another option if you are still in contact with friends who have starter.  Ask them to dry some starter and send it to you.   https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/blog/2015/05/01/putting-sourdough-starter-hold
I did this for a friend and she said it worked really well.    

 
master steward
Posts: 8567
Location: USDA Zone 8a
2579
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I like making my own starter.  Here is the recipe I use:

https://permies.com/t/97835/kitchen/Sourdough-Project

Here is a thread that explains more about using wild yeast:

https://permies.com/t/53601/kitchen/Catching-Wild-Sourdough

Since I have never bought sourdough starter I can't help with that though I am sure several of our members will chime in.
 
pollinator
Posts: 491
Location: Burton, WA (USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 5) - old hippie heaven
8
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've started my own starter numerous times over the past 15 years. Of all the methods I've tried, this one is hands down my favorite - https://ourgabledhome.com/how-to-make-your-own-sourdough-starter/ - because it was so lively right out of the gate.

I also once went to one of those artisanal pizza places and begged/bought a small piece of their dough. It made an okay starter.
 
pollinator
Posts: 204
Location: southern oregon
58
forest garden fungi foraging trees food preservation cooking building solar woodworking wood heat homestead
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Howdy,

Years ago, I once read that to obtain a starter from a loaf of bread that you liked, all you had to do was get a good handful of the inside white part, wad it up into a ball, add some water, and incorporate this into your starter. I actually did this to get a sour dough starter, started.  

And also went on to sell 10-12 sour dough loaves  twice a week, along with some other folks who were baking and selling 24 loaves of home baked ww bread.
 
Posts: 87
Location: Rural North Texas
21
purity solar homestead
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This one takes 4 days before its ready to use.  I've had good luck with it since I'm the only id10t around here who bakes bread.  Once its rolling, you can keep it going and it will improve.

https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/260539/chef-johns-sourdough-starter/

Baking my own bread is another reason the neighbors think I'm kooky.  "Why bother?  You can just buy it at the store and its the same stuff right?"  Then they taste my bread and the lightbulb goes off.  "Ohhhh, man, this is soooo good."
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Dorothy Pohorelow wrote:Many of the starters online do have good reps.   However there may be another option if you are still in contact with friends who have starter.  Ask them to dry some starter and send it to you.   https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/blog/2015/05/01/putting-sourdough-starter-hold
I did this for a friend and she said it worked really well.    


Oh I never considered that as a possibility. So I could have brought it with us! Oh well, good to know for next time!
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Anne Miller wrote:I like making my own starter.  Here is the recipe I use:

https://permies.com/t/97835/kitchen/Sourdough-Project

Here is a thread that explains more about using wild yeast:

https://permies.com/t/53601/kitchen/Catching-Wild-Sourdough

Since I have never bought sourdough starter I can't help with that though I am sure several of our members will chime in.



Thank you for the info! That will help!
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

randal cranor wrote:Howdy,

Years ago, I once read that to obtain a starter from a loaf of bread that you liked, all you had to do was get a good handful of the inside white part, wad it up into a ball, add some water, and incorporate this into your starter. I actually did this to get a sour dough starter, started.  

And also went on to sell 10-12 sour dough loaves  twice a week, along with some other folks who were baking and selling 24 loaves of home baked ww bread.



Oh that is an interesting method! I'll keep it in mind. Unfortunately I don't have any nice sourdough that I've found nearby, only the mass produced stuff at the grocery store that is like watered down sourdough-ish bread.
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Lisa Sampson wrote:This one takes 4 days before its ready to use.  I've had good luck with it since I'm the only id10t around here who bakes bread.  Once its rolling, you can keep it going and it will improve.

https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/260539/chef-johns-sourdough-starter/

Baking my own bread is another reason the neighbors think I'm kooky.  "Why bother?  You can just buy it at the store and its the same stuff right?"  Then they taste my bread and the lightbulb goes off.  "Ohhhh, man, this is soooo good."



Oh yes the home made stuff is so worth it and really isn't hard once it becomes part of your routine. I just need to get the starter and get back into the habit! I find sourdough is even easier than making a regular loaf of bread from store bought commercial yeast.
 
Anne Miller
master steward
Posts: 8567
Location: USDA Zone 8a
2579
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jenny, I can say that the link that Lisa posted for the starter is a good recipe since it is the same recipe that I posted in the Sourdough Project link that posted.

Enjoy!
 
randal cranor
pollinator
Posts: 204
Location: southern oregon
58
forest garden fungi foraging trees food preservation cooking building solar woodworking wood heat homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Howdy,

I wonder if anyone else has heard or read this,

If you have boiled potatoes in water, you can use the water to start a sour yeast dough?  Mix like sour dough starter. cup a water to ?? flour...
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

randal cranor wrote:Howdy,

I wonder if anyone else has heard or read this,

If you have boiled potatoes in water, you can use the water to start a sour yeast dough?  Mix like sour dough starter. cup a water to ?? flour...


I've heard of this but don't know the specifics.
 
Posts: 12
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

randal cranor wrote:Howdy,

Years ago, I once read that to obtain a starter from a loaf of bread that you liked, all you had to do was get a good handful of the inside white part, wad it up into a ball, add some water, and incorporate this into your starter. I actually did this to get a sour dough starter, started.  

And also went on to sell 10-12 sour dough loaves  twice a week, along with some other folks who were baking and selling 24 loaves of home baked ww bread.



I'll have to try this! Sourdough is my favorite.
 
Posts: 9
1
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I vote start your own! I started mine a few years ago using this recipe and I’ve been making sourdough with the same starter since. It worked on my first try. I’m not a very patient person either.

I recently taught other moms in our homeschool group and shared starter with them. A couple of them kept with it. I wished someone was there in the beginning to help me get started but starting from scratch made me feel accomplished.

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/sourdough-starter-recipe
 
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Unless you are dying for some San Fran flavored tangy sourdough or some other very specific flavor profile definitely go for making your own! It's really as easy as feeding your baby. There is wild yeast (and bacteria and fungi and...and...) everywhere and if you give it a few days you'll have a new little baby ready for gifting you with daily/weekly bread!  I 2nd the note above about the Sourdough Project's recipe. I've used it twice after killing off a neglected batch in my fridge in a newborn haze and it's worked like a charm! In fact I have a bowl of dough fermenting on the counter right now for tomorrow.
 
pollinator
Posts: 991
Location: BC Interior, Zone 6-7
277
forest garden tiny house books
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I used to make sourdough periodically, but not regularly enough to want to bother keeping the same starter going. So I'd start a new one quite often, keep it awhile until I got out of the habit of making sourdough, then use it up in pancakes or something.

I always used some rye flour to begin with, which picks up the yeasts and gets flavourful more quickly.

Making your own is really, really easy.
 
Posts: 7
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've made my own - and I've usually used a strip of apple peel as my "kick starter" source of yeast.

But if I don't to take the time/effort to do that, I do occasionally get one from Positively Probiotics.  I have their Danish Wheat as my current starter.  I've always had good luck with their stuff, and I often grab a sourdough starter from them to tuck in the freezer if I'm ordering some yogurt cultures anyway.

And when I want to take a break from either one, I spread some on parchment, let it dry, crumble it up...  and put it in the freezer.
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Gretchen Whitcomb wrote:Unless you are dying for some San Fran flavored tangy sourdough or some other very specific flavor profile definitely go for making your own! It's really as easy as feeding your baby. There is wild yeast (and bacteria and fungi and...and...) everywhere and if you give it a few days you'll have a new little baby ready for gifting you with daily/weekly bread!  I 2nd the note above about the Sourdough Project's recipe. I've used it twice after killing off a neglected batch in my fridge in a newborn haze and it's worked like a charm! In fact I have a bowl of dough fermenting on the counter right now for tomorrow.



Thanks for the encouragement and the chuckle. As easy as feeding my baby, huh? Hopefully easier... My 9mo human baby is voracious and is still nursing every 3 hours round the clock! 😂 But I understand what you meant.
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Holly Stockley wrote:I've made my own - and I've usually used a strip of apple peel as my "kick starter" source of yeast.

But if I don't to take the time/effort to do that, I do occasionally get one from Positively Probiotics.  I have their Danish Wheat as my current starter.  I've always had good luck with their stuff, and I often grab a sourdough starter from them to tuck in the freezer if I'm ordering some yogurt cultures anyway.

And when I want to take a break from either one, I spread some on parchment, let it dry, crumble it up...  and put it in the freezer.



Super helpful to know about drying and freezing.! How long does it take to "wake up" after you take it out of the freezer? Do you just add it to some warm water?
 
Holly Stockley
Posts: 7
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jenny Wright wrote:

Holly Stockley wrote:I've made my own - and I've usually used a strip of apple peel as my "kick starter" source of yeast.

But if I don't to take the time/effort to do that, I do occasionally get one from Positively Probiotics.  I have their Danish Wheat as my current starter.  I've always had good luck with their stuff, and I often grab a sourdough starter from them to tuck in the freezer if I'm ordering some yogurt cultures anyway.

And when I want to take a break from either one, I spread some on parchment, let it dry, crumble it up...  and put it in the freezer.



Super helpful to know about drying and freezing.! How long does it take to "wake up" after you take it out of the freezer? Do you just add it to some warm water?



Not long at all.  I usually just stir the flakes into some room temp water, give it 30 minutes to rehydrate, then stir in an equivalent weight of flour.  Let it ferment 24 hours, then you're back to an active starter to feed/use however you normally do.
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Holly Stockley wrote:

Not long at all.  I usually just stir the flakes into some room temp water, give it 30 minutes to rehydrate, then stir in an equivalent weight of flour.  Let it ferment 24 hours, then you're back to an active starter to feed/use however you normally do.



Wonderful! So simple and easy!
 
Posts: 22
2
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi! Are you in Virginia by any chance? I’d be happy to give you some ☺️  If you’re not in Virginia, I could try and find a way to send some to you.
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Andre Herrera wrote:Hi! Are you in Virginia by any chance? I’d be happy to give you some ☺️  If you’re not in Virginia, I could try and find a way to send some to you.


No, we are on the opposite coast, but thank you for the generous offer! (Virginia is such a lovely beautiful area- we drove through there a few times when we lived in North Carolina.)

Everyone has been so encouraging so I am going to try and start my own yeast. I'll update my post on here in a few weeks with how it goes!
 
Andre Herrera
Posts: 22
2
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jenny Wright wrote:

Andre Herrera wrote:Hi! Are you in Virginia by any chance? I’d be happy to give you some ☺️  If you’re not in Virginia, I could try and find a way to send some to you.


No, we are on the opposite coast, but thank you for the generous offer! (Virginia is such a lovely beautiful area- we drove through there a few times when we lived in North Carolina.)

Everyone has been so encouraging so I am going to try and start my own yeast. I'll update my post on here in a few weeks with how it goes!



It is so rewarding, you wont regret it!
Let me share with you the best sourdough pancake recipe ever, so you wont have to ever throw away any starter (It’s a big batch because we’re a big family, but you can divide by 2 if you want half the amount):
- 4 cups of sourdough starter “discard”
- 4 eggs
- 3 tbsps of honey
- 1tsp of salt
- I add vanilla to taste, but I guess it’s about less than a tbsp.
- 1/4 cup of melted butter
- 1/4 cup of melted coconut oil (you can probably substitute for any preferred fat.. or you could do the full 1/2 a cup of either)
** Mix all of those ingredients real well in a large bowl, now the trick is you the mixture in half and cook one half at a time so that it doesn’t  have time to flatten out while you cook it because the next ingredient is what does the magic and you will see the chemistry at work.
Once you have half the batter in a separate bowl you will add
- 1 tspn of baking soda mix it well really fast and start cooking them right away in a well preheated skillet (I make mine in my cast iron skillet) and they come out perfect.
Once you’re done with one half you can add the baking soda to the other half and do the same.. You can also save half of the batter in the fridge before you add the baking soda and it will last a good day or two.
Feel free to add whatever topping, my kids always ask for me to add choc chips and they come out so good! 😋 Enjoy!
 
Jenny Wright
master pollinator
Posts: 561
Location: Between Tacoma and Mt Rainier in the Pacific Northwest
205
homeschooling hugelkultur kids forest garden foraging chicken cooking bee homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Andre Herrera wrote:
It is so rewarding, you wont regret it!
Let me share with you the best sourdough pancake recipe ever, so you wont have to ever throw away any starter (It’s a big batch because we’re a big family, but you can divide by 2 if you want half the amount):
- 4 cups of sourdough starter “discard”
- 4 eggs
- 3 tbsps of honey
- 1tsp of salt
- I add vanilla to taste, but I guess it’s about less than a tbsp.
- 1/4 cup of melted butter
- 1/4 cup of melted coconut oil (you can probably substitute for any preferred fat.. or you could do the full 1/2 a cup of either)
** Mix all of those ingredients real well in a large bowl, now the trick is you the mixture in half and cook one half at a time so that it doesn’t  have time to flatten out while you cook it because the next ingredient is what does the magic and you will see the chemistry at work.
Once you have half the batter in a separate bowl you will add
- 1 tspn of baking soda mix it well really fast and start cooking them right away in a well preheated skillet (I make mine in my cast iron skillet) and they come out perfect.
Once you’re done with one half you can add the baking soda to the other half and do the same.. You can also save half of the batter in the fridge before you add the baking soda and it will last a good day or two.
Feel free to add whatever topping, my kids always ask for me to add choc chips and they come out so good! 😋 Enjoy!



Sounds delicious!  I will definitely try it when I get my starter going.  There are 7 of us so no need for me to divide the recipe!  I will remember the trick with the baking soda.  My kids LOVE it when I add chocolate chips to our pancakes too. Thank you for sharing!
 
gardener
Posts: 2672
Location: South of Capricorn
1188
dog rabbit urban cooking writing homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jenny Wright wrote: I'll update my post on here in a few weeks with how it goes!


Please do!
I'm another person who starts them pretty frequently, although the most recent starter here has been going for over two years, and I've left it for over a month without feeding (maybe a few times). They're not hard, and if you don't like how one is going you can start again.
 
pollinator
Posts: 130
Location: Suffolk County, Long Island NY
22
2
forest garden foraging food preservation writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

randal cranor wrote:Howdy,

I wonder if anyone else has heard or read this,

If you have boiled potatoes in water, you can use the water to start a sour yeast dough?  Mix like sour dough starter. cup a water to ?? flour...

 

I have been reading the journals of Richard Proenneke https://www.nps.gov/lacl/learn/historyculture/proennekes-cabin.htm, and just last night read about him using this technique to rejuvenate his sourdough starter.
 
Susan Mené
pollinator
Posts: 130
Location: Suffolk County, Long Island NY
22
2
forest garden foraging food preservation writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Susan Mené wrote:

randal cranor wrote:Howdy,

I wonder if anyone else has heard or read this,

If you have boiled potatoes in water, you can use the water to start a sour yeast dough?  Mix like sour dough starter. cup a water to ?? flour...

 

I have been reading the journals of Richard Proenneke https://www.nps.gov/lacl/learn/historyculture/proennekes-cabin.htm, and just last night read about him using this technique to rejuvenate his sourdough starter.



Just to be clear, the link above was to reference who Richard Proenneke was, not to his journals :)
 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
https://www.theperfectloaf.com/guides/sourdough-starter/

This website is a really amazing resource for bread making, everything from making your first sourdough to einkorn sourdough
 
master gardener
Posts: 4117
Location: southern Illinois, USA
1308
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig bee solar wood heat homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My wife often trades starters with other people in our area.  
 
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle, WA
35
kids personal care foraging urban food preservation fiber arts medical herbs ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Starter is really easy to make, just needs flour and water. Starter is actually mostly bacteria, and has a minority of yeast. I use yogurt in overnight no knead bread to sour the dough, because the species are very similar to sourdough starter. I can't digest regular bread nearly as well as sourdough (especially whole wheat and rye), because I need the bacteria to start breaking it down for me. Yogurt soured bread is just as digestible as real sourdough.
 
A sonic boom would certainly ruin a giant souffle. But this tiny ad would protect it:
100th Issue of Permaculture Magazine - now FREE for a while
https://permies.com/goodies/45/pmag
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic