• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • Nancy Reading
  • John F Dean
  • Jay Angler
  • paul wheaton
  • r ranson
stewards:
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Leigh Tate
  • Liv Smith
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Matt McSpadden
  • thomas rubino

about post and beams and stone foundations -preventing rot

 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So the home we are building will have post and beams made from white pine that has been cured and had the bark and cambium removed. We are planning on submerging them in a stone foundation resting on a concrete footing with gravel back fill. the beams will go all the way to the footing. We were planning on using creosote where the beam will be touching stone or cement, because we will not be able to access it to re-treat it. We are hoping this will prevent rotting. the house is on top of a well drained hill and will have a very large overhanging roof. We are in NH, where it can get wet, cold, dry and hot depending on the month. I know creosote is gross, but I dont know what will work better. The plans have been approved by a building inspector.

My question is Will this be enough to prevent rot? Is there some fatal flaw I have overseen? Any suggestions?

thanks everybody.
 
Posts: 8786
Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain
2336
4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Someone else will have a better answer for you but this will bump your question back up to the top. We did build something similar in the seventies but with no creasote that I remember and probably not enough overhang and a few years later (maybe five) my husband was replacing the posts that were set in cement because they rotted. I think they were white oak originally and the rest were peeled pine. Now we try to soak or paint on a borax solution on any bare wood that is not exposed to the weather. It won't work if the wood gets wet repeatedly and I don't know if it will help on a post set in cement.


EDIT...The posts were set into the ground in cement then rockwork built up between them, so not really similar to yours and my husband thinks they lasted ten years. (we were finishing someone elses design) .
 
pollinator
Posts: 1596
Location: Root, New York
318
forest garden foraging trees fiber arts building medical herbs
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Is there some fatal flaw I have overseen?



everything is temporary, thats the basic "fatal flaw"
sorry- i am not meaning to be snarky!

no i wonder about this too....i have tried different things. and thought of a lot of things.
but it seems...if you put posts in the ground you are going to at some point be dealing with rot. its more of a matter can you get it to last 20-50 years temporary or just a five years temporary.

well i have just been researching this too, so just figuring it out.
- perhaps someone will be able to give a better answer.

with the posts i just set in the ground i used a soil cement/soil concrete kind of mix....and burned the post ends...but i am making a fence and so...accepting it will be temporary but hoping it will last a while.

i've been wondering about- ashes...and also roofing paper. we have all this roofing paper...that someone got for free...its just sitting around...so i started eyeing it to possibly wrap the post ends.....and then well just put the posts in without it. did use a lot of ash and burnt the post ends...to hopefully make it longer temporary rather than short term temporary. i think on the part i am about to do...i will staple the roofing paper to the bottom...or somehow make a roofing paper liner...in the hole...i cant say for sure this will be any good, just those are my thoughts. experimenting.
 
Posts: 7
Location: South Central Minnesota, Finally Zone 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am in the long term planning stage for building with timbers and posts. Plan to in fill with straw bale. I've always been interested in creating a whole log home, framed with the logs vertically and beams through the horizontal with in-fill straw bales. When you say that the wood has a tendency to rot, wouldn't a pre-treat of some kind elevated this problem. Short of using creosote, would a borax, then linwood oil or some sort of organic pine tar to inhibit rot. If as I would like to do, using norway pine for strength, inclosing the entire log within a concrete foundation/basement wall, is there a treatment in the concrete that would encapsulate the timber to prohibit a rot situation? It seems to me when going through some cordwood classes (given by the Richard and Becky Flatau) that there are some kind of polymer additives to concrete that can seal/encapsulate or retard moisture. When looking at Cob structures in these forums, England is a wet North Atlantic country most of the time and they have structures with timber that are hundreds of years old and sturdy as heck. Hope someone with some experience can help us out here. Have been perusing this site for three years now without ever signing up. This is my first post. Thanks beki for forcing me out of obscurity and into this world of PERMIES!!!
 
Posts: 143
Location: Oakland, CA
13
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
First, thanks Beki for addressing this very real issue. It pains me to see people putting so much blood sweat and tears into their hand-made homes and yet letting the structural integrity be compromised. Water loves organic material...and will find a way...I understand wanting an all-natural house out of bio materials, but I don't want my all-natural house to bio-degrade! I'm always happy when I see a little common-sense compromise.

What you need/want is called a "stand-off." It physically separates the wood from the concrete so that water does not wick up the end of the post. There are all kinds of post connectors for dimensional lumber available. But for non-dimensional round timbers, there aren't many choices.

Traditionally (for non-temporary buildings) stone plinths rose above ground and a wooden post or column would sit on that, with the stone sloped to drain. Often (but not ideally) these were held in place by gravity and roof loads. Sometimes these were keyed in place. I don't know how or if they treated the ends.

Same idea applies today. A galvinized all-thread is set into at least 10" into the concrete. It has a washer/spacer on it midway. A water-proof barrier like EPDM or building felt can be added for extra protection. Then a hole is drilled in the center of the column and it is epoxied and set on the thread. This is the easiest method, but there's not much of a space.

Stand-offs can be purchased at great expense (but arguably worth it).

Here's one from Simpson, made of PVC

Also, a knife plate/stand-off combination is even better. It insures a strong hold-down connection to the foundation. It's basically, a tongue of metal perpendicular to a plate which is embedded into the concrete. The tongue has a hole(s) drilled in it. The column gets routed to accommodate the tongue, and - very tricky - a hole is drilled perpendicular to the slit and after assembly is through-bolted.

Here's one from Simpson



and here are some hand-fabricated ones. They should be galvanized. Not only are these strong, but hidden from view as well.

Hope this helps everyone have buildings that last for many generations!
 
leila hamaya
pollinator
Posts: 1596
Location: Root, New York
318
forest garden foraging trees fiber arts building medical herbs
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

daniel mielke wrote: When you say that the wood has a tendency to rot, wouldn't a pre-treat of some kind elevated this problem. Short of using creosote, would a borax, then linwood oil or some sort of organic pine tar to inhibit rot.


yeah i think those are all good ideas, linseed oil and borax, and then theres the cresote
and or some of the water proofing for wood products you can purchase- though somewhat expensive.
and not particularly environmentally friendly, but effective.

daniel mielke wrote:
If as I would like to do, using norway pine for strength, inclosing the entire log within a concrete foundation/basement wall, is there a treatment in the concrete that would encapsulate the timber to prohibit a rot situation? It seems to me when going through some cordwood classes (given by the Richard and Becky Flatau) that there are some kind of polymer additives to concrete that can seal/encapsulate or retard moisture.



yes i believe that is commonly available for purchase at ace or other hardware stores. like thin set stuff.... as an additive.


When looking at Cob structures in these forums, England is a wet North Atlantic country most of the time and they have structures with timber that are hundreds of years old and sturdy as heck. Hope someone with some experience can help us out here. Have been perusing this site for three years now without ever signing up. This is my first post. Thanks beki for forcing me out of obscurity and into this world of PERMIES!!!



i am guessing but i think that those older structures have some thing similar to the post above, or are basically with wood ABOVE the ground.
so no part of the wood actually comes in contact with the ground.
 
Posts: 1400
Location: Verde Valley, AZ.
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
or build it so the posts can be replaced easily. that means open frames above, with removable sections, so you can re-drop replacements.

look up covers over wells for ideas.

Best not to have moisture contact at all, and wood and dirt means compost....
 
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


i just layed my logs on rough poured concrete and have a very large overhang and eventually i will mortar in along the bottom when i figure out what exactly i need to bring in under the walls like electric or water etc



i also used white oak logs on the bottom verses the lighter popular or pine

i also have all the soil slopping away from the loghouse
 
Posts: 26
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here is a bracket that you can have made by a local machine shop.

I can upload a sketchup model of these if you like.

Also you can purchase some really nice brackets from a company called perma column. They also have a precast fiber-concrete column that can bolt to the bottom of your post. You then install the conrete part of your post in the ground and keep all of your wood dry.
SANY0105.JPG
[Thumbnail for SANY0105.JPG]
 
Posts: 2413
48
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello Beki,

I live not far from you, over in Vermont. There aren't a lot of folks out there that try to build as natural as they can but there are a few of us. It is a lost life skill to build naturally, and many are forced to rely on more modern, and often misleading modalities of building. I stay as far away from concrete as I possible can. I don't care for the environmental foot print, and as a seasoned timber wright, I have seen more problems than good in 37 years of doing this kind of work. Don't miss understand me, I still use it in certain circumstances, but I do it with a keen eye to the applicable reason, and understand all it's short comings. I would have to see a visual description to give you my two cents worth on what you are planning, but there are a number of natural solution to preserving wood, even below grade, where you could expect to achieve 100 plus year lift span. Still not as good as above grade application with good drainage and architectural overhangs.
DSC05404.JPG
Roughed in foundation
Roughed in foundation
DSC01324.JPG
Timber frame on natural plinth
Timber frame on natural plinth
DSC06569.JPG
Roughed in plinths
Roughed in plinths
 
Daniel erline
Posts: 72
hugelkultur urban bike
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
well you all up there in granite country are lucky in a way LOL.. i like my softer stones down here in Pa where we can use some mortar and a hammer to build





 
Aaron Esch
Posts: 26
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Those are some nicely fitted and beautiful stone foundations! Awesome work! You guys are truly masters at your craft.

Concrete is for the rest of us who aren't wizards with stone. For all of it's shortcomings it serves the purpose. How I wish there where many more craftsman like you throughout the country, but alas those days have passed us by.

We have to live in this modern world of slap it together conventional construction methods. Every time I see a pole barn or stick built building go up it saddens me. Not only because its low quality, but because most of that wood has been shipped hundreds if not thousands of miles.

That's why I have been designing buildings and steel brackets that allow people to build a more traditional post and beam style building from locally harvested timbers without having to become a master craftsman. My hope is that people will be able to use my designs and build their buildings with local materials and leave the conventional stuff at the lumberyard.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
48
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Aaron,

Don’t sell yourself short, if you have the skill to design and fabricate metal bracketing that can withstand the riggers of post and beam architecture, I, (as a teacher of timber wrighting,) can guarantee you have more than enough innate talent to cut even a complex timber frame. You may need a little guidance but I have seen novices, (with good mentoring,) cut marvelous frames.

Your metal brackets are an art form in themselves. When a client wants something a little more modern, or they want a post and beam structure instead of a timber frame, I turn to a metal smith like you. Some of “Green and Green,” architecture from the turn of the century had some of the most beautiful metal wedge keyed strapping you could ever find.

As for concrete, that is something Americans have just become addicted to. Now everyone thinks it is the only choice they have, and most contractors won’t talk them out of it, because it is easier for them to facilitate from a business perspective. Nine out of ten times when I am call to consult on a project, not only can I avoid the use of concrete, I can do the work less expensively for the client, and if they do use concrete, it is in a very limited, and conscious of method.
 
Aaron Esch
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I had a thought. I see you have used stone for a natural foundation. Would it be possible to use a rammed earth process to make a foundation? I'm thinking dig a post hole and fill it layer by layer with a clay/sand mix or another type of cob mix. Then use a 4x4 to compact the mix as you fill it bit by bit, giving you a solidly compacted footing without concrete.

I have experienced clay like that around my home. I have such hard compacted clay here that I have to dig with a pick, Tposts bend when I try to drive them through if they drive at all, whenever I dig post holes I have to dig a foot at a time filling them with water overnight before I can go another foot. I cant imagine that kind of a footing not being solid enough to hold almost any timberframe structure.

What do you think? Have you done foundations like that?
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
48
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Even’n Arron,

“Your standing on the right path, but looking in the wrong direction” as my grandmother would say. Dig that foundation hole, (or trench) and pack it tight, but never with clay!!! Your idea about rammed earth is spot on, it’s just your deployment of the methodology that needs to be adjusted. Lets take one of the oldest architectural examples of rammed earth there is, the Great Wall of China; you can see that thing from space. A lot of it is made with rammed earth, but only above grade. It sits on a compacted gravel and stone trench, not laid flat mind you, but with the ends pointing skyward. It is done this way because: one, it drains much better than ashlar laid rock, and two, during seismic events it packs even tighter.

Whenever you build you want to get your foundation, (what ever type it is,) down to a mineral soil. The concept of, “below frost line,” is rather a misnomer. Frost isn't really the issue; it is soil type that holds moisture so you can get a heaving frost, and you already know what that soil type is, CLAY. Clay, (particularly expansive clay smectite,) are the worst thing to have under your structure. Many of these clays, even without the effect of freezing, can expand enough to rip a foundation apart just by adding a little water. So don’t ever put clay under a foundation. Clay as a building material should always be kept above grade and as dry as possible, some minor wetting is fine, but do not allow it to get saturated.
 
Posts: 74
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
concrete by its nature wicks water. as does wood ... best not to let either come into direct contact so standoffs and rot resistant pads of some nature should be used.. If you have to pour concrete around a post.. do wrap the post so that again the concrete will not be in direct contact with the wood.

Something I was looking for in the comments but did not see is about grading and layering materials in a similar way to passive annually heated homes Move as much water away from the wood and concrete foundations as you can. this includes putting foam below the concrete and perming the land away from the posts so that they stay dry even when there is snow or high water table

water and wood = rot... one can never make it water proof but do your best to make it water resistant
 
Posts: 7
Location: Carmel, ME 04419
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

beki gamble wrote:So the home we are building will have post and beams made from white pine that has been cured and had the bark and cambium removed. We are planning on submerging them in a stone foundation resting on a concrete footing with gravel back fill. the beams will go all the way to the footing. We were planning on using creosote where the beam will be touching stone or cement, because we will not be able to access it to re-treat it. We are hoping this will prevent rotting. the house is on top of a well drained hill and will have a very large overhanging roof. We are in NH, where it can get wet, cold, dry and hot depending on the month. I know creosote is gross, but I dont know what will work better. The plans have been approved by a building inspector.

My question is Will this be enough to prevent rot? Is there some fatal flaw I have overseen? Any suggestions?

thanks everybody.

I would be cautious of using white pine, it is a pretty soft wood that can go punky quite easily, just take a walk through a white pine forest. I would suggest investing in white cedar, which is available locally, much stronger and is more decay resistant. White Pine is not use for structural support. Your building inspector is not doing you any favors, it is not the right material for the use you are planning, use White Cedar instead and consult with the university extension service for selecting the proper materials.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
48
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello N. McCoy,

I have some reservation about Beki Gamble's general plan, but with some "tweaking" it could work fine. I must point out some misinformation in your post.

White Pine is not use for structural support...

This is plainly not a true statement and must be corrected for the betterment of this forum's general information. I am a traditional timber wright, and can assure you that White Pine is not only a structural timber, it is one of the leading timber species used in vintage traditional timber frames, as well as, contemporary timber frames and log cabin architecture. That includes the posts, beams, and all structural timber elements, when done correctly.

white cedar, which is available locally, much stronger and is more decay resistant...

Again, other than decay resistance, this comment is not accurate in any way. I will just list a Compression Parallel to the Grain Maximum Crushing Strength in psi, then provide a link for the others structural numbers. As you can see, White Pine is 840 psi stronger than White Cedar. Cedar in generally a very weak wood.

Cedar, Northern White: 3,960

Pine, Eastern white: 4,800

http://www.woodworkweb.com/woodwork-topics/wood/146-wood-strengths.html




 
Paddy Murphy
Posts: 7
Location: Carmel, ME 04419
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jay C. White Cloud wrote:Hello N. McCoy,

I have some reservation about Beki Gamble's general plan, but with some "tweaking" it could work fine. I must point out some misinformation in your post.

White Pine is not use for structural support...

This is plainly not a true statement and must be corrected for the betterment of this forum's general information. I am a traditional timber wright, and can assure you that White Pine is not only a structural timber, it is one of the leading timber species used in vintage traditional timber frames, as well as, contemporary timber frames and log cabin architecture. That includes the posts, beams, and all structural timber elements, when done correctly.

white cedar, which is available locally, much stronger and is more decay resistant...

Again, other than decay resistance, this comment is not accurate in any way. I will just list a Compression Parallel to the Grain Maximum Crushing Strength in psi, then provide a link for the others structural numbers. As you can see, White Pine is 840 psi stronger than White Cedar. Cedar in generally a very weak wood.

Cedar, Northern White: 3,960

Pine, Eastern white: 4,800

http://www.woodworkweb.com/woodwork-topics/wood/146-wood-strengths.html



I have to concede, I am not an expert in these matters, but I had looked at a USDA Plant Guide site and it had said that cedar is used for log cabins and poles, I am assuming telephone poles. Felt that cedar would be a good alternative to pine. Maybe modern day timber framing uses pine, but in the old days, chestnut is used. I know it is no longer available, there are a couple chestnut trees that are maturing to their former heights, so maybe a resistant strain is evolving and we can get our chestnut trees back.

Revisiting the pine issue, pine does poorly in wet conditions, so I still have reservations on that one. I also thought creosote was an endangered species and could not be gotten, except maybe by special permit or maybe smuggled in across the border.

Thanks for correcting my errors.

 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
48
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello Nitepagan,

Cedar (actually Arborvitae sometimes (called a Cypress) as we have no native Cedars in the either South or North America,) is a good choice, don't get me wrong, my house sits on many White Arborvitae posts. So it wouldn't be incorrect to use them in that way, they just aren't as strong, so should be increased in size according to structural parameters.

As for the White Pine in vintage frames, you may wish to check my links. I am a Historical Timber Wright, and make a fare share of my income working on vintage frames, (circa 1650 to 1850, and older in Asia-Europe,) Many are all White Pine. I have even found White Pine sill plates. It's much more rot resistant than folks gives it credit for, it just needs to be able to dry out, and not stay damp.

Regards,

jay
 
Posts: 16
Location: Yalaguina, Nicaragua
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi,
I'm looking for comments on wrapping posts in fiberglass and resin to prevent rot. I intend to wrap the bottom three feet and bury the post two feet deep. My thinking is that swimming pools, bathtubs, etc. are made out of fiberglass so it should work. All comments are welcomed.
Thanks,
RWC
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
48
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Richard C.,

Great concept but it does not work in real life. I have seen this concept applied at the Brookfield Zoo and one other. One use fiber glass and the other epoxy. They both became unserviceable in an accelerated time frame as the "polymers only trapped moisture in the wood and promoted fungal grow. There still has not been an improvement on traditional methods for wood below grade "Posting."

Regards,

jay
 
Richard Cobbs
Posts: 16
Location: Yalaguina, Nicaragua
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks Jay,
That explains why I never heard of it being done; nobody likes to broadcast their failures. Now to plan B. I like the stability of embedded posts and I recently made a machine that allows me to turn any size round tenon up to about 6". What I have in mind is 4" metal pipe piers set on a concrete footing and partially filled with concrete. The pipe would extend 12" minimum above ground and my post bottoms would be turned (rounded) to fit inside of the pipes. Probably keep the concrete 8" down inside the pipes and make the round tenon 6" long to separate the wood from the concrete. Also, probably a "washer" (metal plate with a four " diameter hole) so the wood has more to bear on than just the pipe. Any opinions, suggestions?.
Thanks,
RWC
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
48
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Richard,

Sorry to keep poking holes in your ideas, I like your inventiveness, but I guess that's why I'm here for folks, so they don't have to muddle through things. What you are describing is called (in PE language) your "moment connection." Now I am about 98% sure I have a good mental picture of your plan, and can tell you that it would probably "meet muster" but is way more convoluted than it needs to be. There are at least a 1/2 dozen other solutions that are simpler. It would really help if you could do a hand drawing or a CAD with Sketchup, but in general if you want speed and a more natural treatment just bury them with the methods I described above in this thread, (I think it was this thread?.) If burying does not appeal to you, (I try to avoid it to in most cases-not all) I would scribe to a plinth of stone, or, if you must, concrete. I have done several big job with post that over 300mm to 400mm in diameter (~12" to 18") and your steel pipe goes into them about 200mm to 300mm, and are either pinned to the pipe or glued with structural adhesive. This is just one of several methods. Hope that helps. Keep trying and asking, I'll do my best to respond.

Regards,

jay
 
Posts: 13
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jay C. White Cloud wrote:Hello Beki,

I live not far from you, over in Vermont. There aren't a lot of folks out there that try to build as natural as they can but there are a few of us. It is a lost life skill to build naturally, and many are forced to rely on more modern, and often misleading modalities of building. I stay as far away from concrete as I possible can. I don't care for the environmental foot print, and as a seasoned timber wright, I have seen more problems than good in 37 years of doing this kind of work. Don't miss understand me, I still use it in certain circumstances, but I do it with a keen eye to the applicable reason, and understand all it's short comings. I would have to see a visual description to give you my two cents worth on what you are planning, but there are a number of natural solution to preserving wood, even below grade, where you could expect to achieve 100 plus year lift span. Still not as good as above grade application with good drainage and architectural overhangs.



Hi Jay,

In the pictures above, the majority of the stone plinths have a drop ledge that appears cut to mate with the timber. Why wasn't the stone cut in more of a V or W shape so the wood's gravitational force would keep it seated and resist any twisting? Would that result in the wood twisting the stone from it's resting space? or would this ultimately result in precipitation being diverted to a holding zone where it contacts the wood? I'm assuming this would cause some type of problem since it isn't current practice but I can't figure out what it would be.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
48
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Chris,

Your comments remind me that I really need to do a post taking folks through the "basics" of this process, so they can perhaps glean a little bit better understanding of how this system works. Scribed timbers (or stones) to stone plinths and other foundational elements isn't something you can really learn (or understand well) from just looking at pictures...not unless you have years of sculpture, and other related stone and wood working experiences to draw from.

There is much more going on in the photos I shared, yet I would share that carving the plinth stones at all is not necessary in almost all applications for any reason other than "aesthetic" or some other motivation. Structurally, a rounded stone, which drains water very well, well bedded in a gravel footing with, perhaps a drift pin in some applications, yields a very solid foundation...some that have endure monthly seismic events for over 1500 years are built just this way...

I think you arrived at a lot of the conclusions yourself that I just shared. I will try and get a post up dedicated to this as soon as I can...

Regards,

j
 
Posts: 24
Location: Australia
1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jay C. White Cloud wrote:Your comments remind me that I really need to do a post taking folks through the "basics" of this process, so they can perhaps glean a little bit better understanding of how this system works.


Hi Jay,
Did you end up doing that? Can you link me a link? I would like to read that very much! And also, how would you incorporate termite controls and barriers to that sort of system?
Thanks,
Fi
 
Posts: 600
Location: Michigan
40
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I was installing at a new build horse stable and they used this to set all posts inside for longevity. Its not natural and i am posting the link so people can see a possible solution that would involve less or no treatment chemicals seeping into soils. Im guessing cedar would last a long time inside these, but also wonder how long polyethylene would stay structurally sound under pressure and movement over time.

All in all we probably should be doing more to learn and preserve time honored techniques in building with natural materials as far as possible. I do not like to think of incorporating chem treatment or plastic liners and also do not like to think of having a home that was won on sweat equity to be a short lived failure or fail in our later retirement years.

http://www.postprotector.com/
 
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello from Scotland, I'm looking to build a timber workshop, so looking for ideas on foundations, there's a guy local to me built one, he poured concrete footings with a hollow core a couple inches bigger than the posts. He then positioned the posts centrally in footings, having first ed steeped the post in used engine oil. He then backfilled around the posts with sand and then poured additional oil into the sand. What do you think?
 
Posts: 17
Location: Ipswich, Qld, Australia
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I just found a fantastic video showing some mind-boggling craftmanship when it comes to stone and wood...
Particularly check from 20:58 to 21:06!

Adrienne
 
Posts: 26
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
do you know if the taza and the muella are there only by gravity, & is the muella to protect the ground beneath from excess direct water?
image.jpeg
[Thumbnail for image.jpeg]
 
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4469
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
561
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My guess would be that the muella would serve to deter rodents from climbing up into the building. Water would not be likely to have anything to do with it, as the building above would already keep water away from the pier.

I think gravity, and possibly some mortar as a stabilizing agent, is all that is keeping it in place. Since the diagram appears to be showing all the important parts of the structure, a pin that could hold them would be significant enough that I would expect it to be mentioned. As an apparently vernacular building method, drilling holes in rock seems unlikely.
 
Posts: 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello to all,  I am new to this way of communicating, so please forgive the occasional dumb question. Here in northern NSW, AU, my lady and I are building a two story, round-wood, post and beam, circular building (similar to a grain silo) with straw bale infill walls, clay/lime render skins and an earthen floor with PEX radiant heating and hardwood inlays. I am 40 years a painter and plasterer with a fair bit of construction knowledge. I also spent 30 years of my adult life in a religiously constricted, Judeo-Christian, share everything and own nothing community, which I departed about 5 years ago. It was a profoundly beautiful way of life in many ways, but having gained a sort of PhD in narrow-mindedness, I'm now like a kid in a candy store of new ideas and ways to embrace life. I too see that building a home is not rocket science and that we should look to ourselves first for answers, but having said that, good, sound advice is a lovely and comforting thing. We are also choosing to spend as little, and be as resourceful as humanly possible. And, sorry about the metric measurements; I'm originally from the U.S., but I've fallen in love with millimeters.
 
So... my concern is foundations. The site is gently sloping; the soil is sandy loam. I've carved out a flat pad with our farm tractor, digging into the high side and moving that soil to the lower side. I'm going to hire a plate compactor and pound the filled side for a loong time. The winters here are incredibly mild and frost is not an issue. I'm from Wisconsin where people have basements and central heating. Not here. Termites (white ants) are a definite problem though. Our 40 acres is largely regrowth Aussie hardwood, but lacking in the tallowoods and grey gums, etc... that one would chose to be near or in the ground. I see the sense in using concrete under buildings, but I'd really rather not, and we can't get a concrete truck down to the site anyway. We are on a creek with an endless supply of smooth river rock in all sizes. We also have an elegant stand of flooded gums (eucalyptus grandis), tall and straight as ships masts.  Fine for framing, floors and external features, but not durable in the ground. I want this building to be there in a hundred years, so I understand that I need to get down to stable soil for a start.
 
My idea is this:  Fire up my trusty earth auger and drill a series of 250mm wide holes around the perimeter at around 1200mm deep, maybe up to 2 meters deep on the lower, filled side. Fill the compacted bottom of each hole with 200mm of clean stone. Then weld a thick steel base plate onto the end of a galvanized, 100 x 100 x 4mm square hollow steel section. Being a painter, I would coat each SHS with many coats of serious anti-corrosion paint. Then place each one onto it's stony pad, level up and back-fill with more clean stone. These steel posts would protrude above ground level to the height of the coming grade beam. Then I plan to dig and fill a rubble trench between each of these in-ground posts. The top of that trench brings us up to grade. Then we lay 2 or 3 courses of rock-filled, barbed wire reinforced earth bags to form a grade beam. That done, I would bolt my heavily preserved, flooded gum posts onto standoff stirrups welded to the top of each steel pier. Then I would build a strong upper ring beam to lock the timber posts into position at the top. Back at the base, I would construct a timber, ladder-type stem wall for the straw bales to rest on. This would, of course, be bolted to the timber posts as well, tying it all together.  I would then go back to the top and construct the roof before installing the straw bale infill, etc...

In all I've read, I haven't seen this method described, and of course I ask myself why. Am I missing something? Or maybe it is fundamentally sound, but needs some help here and there. Any comment or ideas would be greatly appreciated.   Have a creative day....
 
Glenn Herbert
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4469
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
561
5
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think this method would work, and probably be more durable than many alternatives if done right as you describe. It would also likely be more earthquake-resistant, if that is relevant to your location.

However, I don't think it would give a measurably better result than more traditional building methods, which can last centuries without steel or high-tech coatings if done right, and built in an appropriate environment.

The joint between steel pier and wood post will be a weak spot. Even if the joints are stiff enough to hold the posts upright, it would be difficult for them to be strong enough to keep them from swaying under load without diagonal bracing of some sort. Good bracing would be sufficient in itself to keep the structure plumb.

I would dig a wider trench to undisturbed soil that is firm enough to not compact more (no essential need for really deep posts.) A rubble trench laid consciously for stability would have no cost but labor. Running the stone to appropriately far above future grade will give a good base for a timber sill beam, and posts can be tenoned into that with diagonal braces to hold them until top beams and braces can be added. As you are talking about timber to support the infill walls anyway, the traditional method would not increase your exposure to termites.

 
Posts: 8
Location: Liberty, Maine
4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have a question about my beams. I bought a house with a post and beam foundation. Posts are concrete sonotube into the dirt. Next is black plastic looks like cut trash bags. Then the beams. The ground touched three of the beams and rotted them. I rented an excavator and sloped the ground away from the foundation and ditched uphill. Added gutters. Routed the artesian well overflow around the house (it was just pouring out uphill). In spring I will replace the beams. I have no idea what wood was used. They are
3.5in x 9.75 in x 12 ft
6in x 10in x 8 ft
3.5in x 9.75in x 16 ft
I don't know what type of wood to use here in Maine. I'm having a hard time finding a place to get these too. The mill in town will do it but only cedar. Is cedar to weak?
 
Glenn Herbert
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4469
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
561
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
"It depends"... on what the load on each beam is, and how they are attached. How tall is the building, and how much floor area does each beam support? Do you have any idea what kind of wood the original beams are? Softwood or hardwood? How is the structure above connected to the beams, and how will you support that to replace the beams?
 
Andrew Legere
Posts: 8
Location: Liberty, Maine
4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Glenn Herbert wrote:"How tall is the building, and how much floor area does each beam support?



Thanks for the response. I am thinking I can use cedar for at least 2 of the beams. One supports a deck about 15 ft wide. The deck is attached to the house. One supports a roof and wall lean-to about 20 ft at about a 6-12 pitch and some snow. One supports the side of the house with about 50 ft square floor, a cathedral ceiling a stairway and roof like the other one.
 
Andrew Legere
Posts: 8
Location: Liberty, Maine
4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Glenn Herbert wrote:Do you have any idea what kind of wood the original beams are? Softwood or hardwood? How is the structure above connected to the beams, and how will you support that to replace the beams?



No. I poked and prodded and I guess it's softwood. The wall plate in the lean-to is nailed to the beam. I'll use jacking posts to hold the 4 ft tall wall and roof up at the wall top plate. The deck floor joists are nailed at angle to that beam. I assume the house floor bottom plate is nailed to that beam, it's hidden by insulation now. I'm planning to get jacking beams to help replace those beams.
 
Posts: 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jay White Cloud-  are you still building?  I am fascinated by your work and methodologies of using all natural materials in place of concrete footings.  Would you talk more about this method of stone plinths?
 
Posts: 71
Location: Currently located in central OK. Farmstead location is in northern VT.
14
forest garden fungi homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jay C. White Cloud wrote:Hello Beki,

I live not far from you, over in Vermont.  There aren't a lot of folks out there that try to build as natural as they can but there are a few of us.  It is a lost life skill to build naturally, and many are forced to rely on more modern, and often misleading modalities of building.  I stay as far away from concrete as I possible can.  I don't care for the environmental foot print, and as a seasoned timber wright, I have seen more problems than good in 37 years of doing this kind of work.  Don't miss understand me, I still use it in certain circumstances, but I do it with a keen eye to the applicable reason, and understand all it's short comings.  I would have to see a visual description to give you my two cents worth on what you are planning, but there are a number of natural solution to preserving wood, even below grade, where you could expect to achieve 100 plus year lift span.  Still not as good as above grade application with good drainage and architectural overhangs.



I am just interjecting myself here but wanted to give a holler. Our place is also up in VT and we are tinkering with ideas on building our cabin. I am also not a big fan of concrete. Anyway, reckon I could hit you up to run ideas by and whatnot? I really dig the work in your pictures there. Maybe we could work out mutually beneficial trades or something when we are back up there. I would love to be able to bounce ideas/plans with someone in the area who plainly knows more about the subject matter than I. We aren't complete newbies to construction but it has definitely been a while.
 
All of the following truths are shameless lies - Vonnegut
Contribute to BEL fund and stay in the Red Cabin for free!
https://permies.com/t/268918/Contribute-BEL-fund-stay-Red
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic