• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Leigh Tate
  • paul wheaton
  • Nicole Alderman
master gardeners:
  • Timothy Norton
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Saana Jalimauchi
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Ulla Bisgaard

Direct heat from wind turbine

 
steward & bricolagier
Posts: 14005
Location: SW Missouri
9473
2
goat cat fungi books chicken earthworks food preservation cooking building homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I accidentally tripped over Heat your House with a Mechanical Windmill and my head exploded. Does anyone here do this?
AND  Does anyone function stack it? So the solar collector heats when it can, the hot compost pile heats when it can, the wind turbine heats when it can....
I'm thinking if I use the tank underground, and put compost on top of it, circulate water or hydraulic fluid from the solar through the compost, to the tank, have a radiator type thing in the tank that then transfers to my heating system, I'd have some cool redundancies.  
Anyone doing this?

My main house heat is to be hydronic, embedded in thermal mass, with heat supplied by a water heater. (Separate from the house water lines and water heater! Don't use your house system in your floors! Legionnaire's Disease bacteria LOVE the temperature changes in the floor system!!) I was planning to use solar to preheat it, but I have wind when I don't have sun, and I have compost quite often.

Ooooh, my head explodes!! :D
 
master pollinator
Posts: 4558
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
1241
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I like NoTech/LoTech magazine because they upset the standard script of using "x energy source" to generate electricity. Direct mechanical connections to do work are way more efficient if you have the option.
 
steward
Posts: 15301
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
4714
7
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That makes perfect sense to this mechanical guy.  At least the heat generating windmill part.  Tacking on solar collectors would also be a good plan.  I'm not sure about compost.  I've had trouble getting it to generate enough real heat to help.

If the storage tank was build with a rocket heater option, you could always boost the temps with a fire.
 
pollinator
Posts: 343
Location: The North
153
cat purity gear tiny house books bike fiber arts bee solar woodworking ungarbage
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I wouldn't put it on the same loop as other heat sources simply because it makes it more difficult to control and maintain.

That being said, it would be a great way to charge a thermal mass!
 
gardener & hugelmaster
Posts: 3616
Location: Gulf of Mexico cajun zone 8
1914
cattle hugelkultur cat dog trees hunting chicken bee woodworking homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Those were impressive heating stats in the article. 3kw of heat from a small savonius in moderate winds could save a lot of electricity or fuel. I especially liked the eddy current design they mentioned at the end. Brilliant idea but I think the core would have to be custom made. One of the big losses in motors & transformers is due to eddy currents. It appears in the form of heat. Makes perfect sense to capture it!
 
pollinator
Posts: 1144
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
495
6
urban books building solar rocket stoves ungarbage
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Fantastic. (pun definitely intended)
I am dreaming up a combined system like you describe, Pearl.
Solar hot air, solar hot water, RMH, charcoal retort, compost heat, and now this? wind? The thing I like which I think the wind does by design? is that it is pumping fluid... which is a need in a hydronic heating system. Rather than being an expense, it could be an input!!!

I have had success with compost heat at least experimentally, although my experiment was 4-6 times larger than yours was Mike.

Regarding separating systems, yes they could just run in parallel. With a differential setting of thermostats, the backup would only run when the main system couldn't satisfy the demand.
 
Pearl Sutton
steward & bricolagier
Posts: 14005
Location: SW Missouri
9473
2
goat cat fungi books chicken earthworks food preservation cooking building homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Kenneth Elwell wrote:
Solar hot air, solar hot water, RMH, charcoal retort, compost heat, and now this? wind? The thing I like which I think the wind does by design? is that it is pumping fluid... which is a need in a hydronic heating system. Rather than being an expense, it could be an input!!!



I think that I'd make the tank the liquid is swirling in (hydraulic fluid would be better heat exchange fluid than water, from what I have read) sealed, with the water for the hydronic heat system wrapped around it, so the heat transfers, but the systems stay separate. In case of problems, you only have a piece of the system that needs to be worked on, not a full tangled mess where one problem can take down the whole system.

That way you'd just switch which input lines your hydronic heat is using depending on what's most effective at that time due to conditions. Have all your input lines hook to a grid or battery bank tied water heater used a water mixing tank and let it be back up for any other inputs.

But that DOES remove the pump you like :D I think it adds more versatility to not use that rotor for a pump. A separate rotor can run the pump easily. That also could be hooked to redundant systems, if the wind or whatever isn't moving it, the grid/battery takes over. I like the idea of electrical being the back up system, not the first in line. Try all the cheaper inputs first!
:D
 
Douglas Alpenstock
master pollinator
Posts: 4558
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
1241
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In my part of the world, freezing would be an issue. The wind does not always blow. But used synthetic motor oil and used hydraulic oil can be had for free. Mixing these would create an effective brake and heat sink. And of course, the contents can be recycled at will.
 
Kenneth Elwell
pollinator
Posts: 1144
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
495
6
urban books building solar rocket stoves ungarbage
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Pearl, Douglas, both good points. Feast and famine and frost, oh my!
Relying on the wind for the pumping might not be reliable.
Water as a heat transfer fluid seems better than oil for it's specific heat. However, oil might be better for the higher viscosity/resistance in the machine? as well as not freezing (or boiling for that matter!) so it could operate beyond 32*F-212*F range.

I am reminded of the cavitation boiler, wondering if that has any place being combined with wind? no idea if it would act the same way as the water brake, or about operating speeds required, but one company is using a VFD to vary speed of the rotor and therefore temperature... hmm...
 
Douglas Alpenstock
master pollinator
Posts: 4558
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
1241
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Kenneth Elwell wrote:I am reminded of the cavitation boiler, wondering if that has any place being combined with wind? no idea if it would act the same way as the water brake, or about operating speeds required, but one company is using a VFD to vary speed of the rotor and therefore temperature... hmm...


Ooh, I need to look up cavitation boiler. And curiously I know what a VFD is.
 
pollinator
Posts: 2469
Location: RRV of da Nort
681
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This topic came up back when Travis Johnson was on the site and the idea of water 'cavitation' from a turning turbine in the water was discussed.  I like the idea of a vertical axis wind turbine driving the thing because our yard would be more suited to a turbine that could withstand the wind turbulence here.  But it seems quite tractable to have a cavitation-inducing turbine underground directly driven by a wind turbine above ground.   Looks like kenneth just beat me to the resurrection of the cavitation concept! :-)

Douglas, even as you are farther north of us northern Yanks, if the heat-generating turbine were far enough underground, no worries about freeze-up......or?
 
John Weiland
pollinator
Posts: 2469
Location: RRV of da Nort
681
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
...and just a follow-up to Pearl's OP that I see this heat source as supplementing other sources as she had envisioned.
 
Douglas Alpenstock
master pollinator
Posts: 4558
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
1241
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

John Weiland wrote:Douglas, even as you are farther north of us northern Yanks, if the heat-generating turbine were far enough underground, no worries about freeze-up......or?


Average frostline here is 6 ft. Water/sewer lines are minimum 7 ft. to meet code. Ground loop geothermal installs are deeper to get good results -- 10 ft. is ideal, with at least 1 km. of pipe (and based on people's underwhelming experiences, I would double that to avoid wasting my money).

If operating at any depth, the fly-in-the-ointment would be moving the heated water to a useful location. A purpose built (or repurposed) slab and building might be viable. Perhaps a combination of two heat sources -- septic tank plus windmill cavitation -- would make sense, with a lightweight greenhouse perched on top to extend the season?

There are a lot of locations close to the U.S. border that have endless wind, and those are probably better suited than mine .
 
pollinator
Posts: 5207
Location: Bendigo , Australia
439
plumbing earthworks bee building homestead greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What happened with Travis, I always enjoyed his writing?
This windmil to heat looks interesting.
Maybe the technology is being hidden by people with a vested interest in not having them around?
 
Pearl Sutton
steward & bricolagier
Posts: 14005
Location: SW Missouri
9473
2
goat cat fungi books chicken earthworks food preservation cooking building homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
And now I need to look up cavitation boiler..  :D

A lot of this is site/climate dependent.
My site has constant low speed, often high speed, wind, from multiple directions, thus my desire for a vertical axis turbine.
Frost depth here is 24 inches, easy to go under it. The house design has insulated wings off of it for water reduction and temperature stabilization, I'd run mp water lines under that, and put the whole mess near the house, for many reasons, including taking advantage of wind channels around structures. I'm designing the wind channels to work for me, not against me, in the layout of buildings.

I also do not need seriously heavy heating. I'm not where Douglas is, I'm in zone 6, and the main problem here is wind chill, rather than temperature. So it really depends on what you need as output. I don't have need for a big RMH in the house, that's overkill for me, but something like this may be what I can work with, especially with other systems involved too.  
 
What's brown and sticky? ... a stick. Or a tiny ad.
Can we do it? Freaky Cheap Tickets to the 2025 Permaculture Technology Jamboree - this weekend only!
https://permies.com/wiki/259997/Freaky-Cheap-Tickets-Permaculture-Technology
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic