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Shoulder pain

 
master gardener
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I do have a routine appointment set with my physician in May.   Since about the first of the year, I have developed pain in my left shoulder.  It is intense enough that I get tears in my eyes when I put on a shirt.  Though sometimes the intensity drops to zero. At its worse it extends to my elbow, neck, and shoulder blade. The problem appears to be more with twisting than lifting.  I suspect when it reaches the wider limits it has more to do with my sleeping position.   I find the pain is far less when I am in a sitting position.  Liniments and aspirin do little to help.  Hot water, as in a shower, helps as long as I am in the shower.  My wife suspects rotator cuff. I am not convinced of anything. Any ideas?

Worth noting, it is on my left side.  I 1982 I did a crash landing off if a second story roof on my left side.  I did not notice any shoulder problems at the time.  But that may have been because I broke my knee cap and it hurt much worse.
 
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Old injuries can be a bear, so yes, that's a possibility - so is wonky sleeping position. I've done serious damage to my shoulders, but in such a way that is not really fixable, and it haunts pretty much everything I do, or attempt to do. Liniments are not long acting, and depending on what is in them, may just be effective in that it gets you to rub it on, bringing the nerve endings to life, and bringing blood into the area.

Is the pain burning, aching, stabbing, sharp, dull, deep in the joint, or more muscular, feel like it is more than one muscle, or not the muscle, but feels more like it's in the tendons & ligaments? Does it get better or worse, with activity? These are all questions that will help your doctor diagnose it.

 
master pollinator
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Whatever the cause, it seems you need to heal. How is your comfrey supply? Maybe you should put it to use?

Catherine Brown suggested a comfrey DMSO salve for Hunny's shoulder surgery recovery in this post. I don't remember the exact measurements, but what I did was make a strong decoction from comfrey root. About 1 cup dry roots (Mabe equal to 2 cups fresh?) to 3 cups water simmer maybe 30 minutes. Strain out the roots. Combine 4 parts of the decoction to 1 part liquid DMSO. This combination gives off significant chemical heat. Once the reaction cooled down, I stirred in about 1/4 cup of powdered Tumeric. This was applied liberally to his shoulder, pectoral, shoulder blade area from 6 weeks before surgery to several months after.

Lots and lots of bone broth!

This post by Sharol Tilgnor was answering a question related to degenerating discs but is appropriate for all joints and cartilage in general.


 
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I've had on and off trouble with both shoulders. An experienced Physio therapist would be able to diagnose if rotator cuff (or part of it) is to blame, but I've found many physios have tunnel vision. I happen to have a superb Chriropractor, and my most recent issue improved with his help. However, his side kick is a Therapeutic Massage therapist, so I took a risk and had a session there - yeah - therapeutic massage is painful! The crazy part is that the next day, it was my sterno-clavicular joint that was the most sore. The light bulb went on and I remembered that way back before the current shoulder trouble was a noticeable problem, that joint had been sore. So the point is that you may need to visit a number of professionals to actually figure out what the current problem is, and what the root of the problem is.

Key thing that helped my first shoulder was getting my Vit. D up - too much pressure to "stay out of the sun" led to "I couldn't heal from a minor injury" because Vit D is just as important as Vit C for such things.

Key thing for current shoulder problem - not enough Vit B. I think this is that I'm not absorbing it as well as I did when I was younger, as I eat enough of the recommended foods that it shouldn't be a problem. So I've also just made some sauerkraut in the hopes of helping my gut biology.

I also find a hot rice pack helps.

I absolutely found that getting my whole spine more mobile and stronger has helped my shoulder.

A bunch of the ideas from the the previous posters are also worth trying. One never knows what the key thing might be, so I find I have to try several approached and *really* try to notice whether the after effects are positive, negative or neutral. Some things take longer to work, though, so keep that in mind also.

Good luck on the hunt for a cure!
 
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I dislocated my shoulder when as a competitive diver struck a diving board. Barometric changes really present in the form of pain. Sleeping positions and overhead work also become problematic. The pain can be excruciating feeling like a knife sliding under the ball. Someone suggested a b12 transdermal patch and I can't say that that helped or was placebic but the flare up didn't seem to last as long. Nothing helps with a barometric change.
 
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"Since about the first of the year, I have developed pain in my left shoulder."

2yrs go I stepped on metal roofing, buried under a foot of snow, landing heavily on my right side. Shoulder pain exactly as you describe, ensued. Xrays and multiple Dr. visits showed "nothing wrong", rotator cuff injury kept being bandied about, but no one seemed to be able to confirm this, or come up with a solid diagnoses or plan to solve the pain and weakness (that began to develop - pain caused favoring, lower use, weakening).

Finally asked my chiro if he could do something. A few probes with his fingers, a quick, hard wrist flick (like when you flick a hose or rope, creating a wave) and literally instant relief. I had partially "subluxated" (dislocated) my collar bone; the intense episodes were caused by periodic entrapment of ligaments/tendons) the dull ache from the strain on the surrounding soft tissue.

Nothing but what my chiro did would have "fixed" this, or stopped the pain. No amount of topicals, heat or cold, would ever have solved this.

When I fell I landed on my side (armpit down) arm fully extended. Hope this helps.
 
Jay Angler
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Lorinne Anderson wrote:

I had partially "subluxated" (dislocated) my collar bone;

Yes, this was my point - pain in the "shoulder" is not necessarily a pure "shoulder" problem - the whole shoulder movement system in humans is a poor compromise between mobility and stability and things are *all* connected from the sternum to the back bone. I'd keep looking at all the interconnecting parts until a solution is found.

"Holistic" doesn't just work for plants!
 
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John, there are lots of web sites that describe tests you can do at home (with someone's help) to see if it might be rotator cuff tears or impingement. I've had all three rotator cuff tendons in both shoulders injured, torn, etc. throughout my checkered youth. I somehow managed to tear one in three places according to the PT. The only thing that helped was what the PT called "friction massage" and it's damned painful (tears in the eyes and wanting to swear out loud painful) for about 2 minutes then the pain goes away. Multiple treatments are necessary but both my shoulders are pain free after 30 years.

The way he described it is that when a tendon is injured, the body lays down collagen in a patch, with the fibers running different directions, and they can adhere to the surrounding muscles. The friction massage tears the fibers running the wrong direction, leaving the ones going in the right direction along the tendon. The first time he did it I could barely lift my arm and it was excruciating. After the session I could lift it a lot higher and it didn't hurt. Of course I was sore the next day and had to repeat the procedure, but it seems to have actually healed the tendon.

This was 30 years ago so I don't know how things have advanced since then or what they call this treatment. The doctor would likely be clueless unless he/she is an orthpedic MD, and even then, who knows.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.
 
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I am prone to muscle spasms and tightness in my shoulder, usually attributable repetitive motions or too much time spent in bad position. Besides stopping whatever behavior I think is causing the pain, I also try to spend some time in a position that relaxes the problems area.  For me, the yoga position "child's pose" really relaxes and opens up the shoulders. Child's Pose Wikipedia
 
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Sorry to hear you're dealing with that, John. Sounds rough. I have found these guys amazingly helpful. The first video might help in getting an idea for yourself about what may be going on.  

Depending what you learn, they likely have some other videos that could help you address it. Though going to see your doctor and/or a PT, massage therapist or chiropractor is still a good idea.
This video talks about how sleeping posture can affect shoulder pain and how to sleep to reduce the pain.
If the issue is muscular, I have found magnesium oil or salve really beneficial. It can sometimes reduce the pain and spasm almost instantly. It's pretty easy to make or can be bought.
Hope you find some relief!
 
steward
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John F Dean wrote: Any ideas?



I think it could be energy arising from a past life injury manifesting as pain and discomfort.
 
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I developed shoulder pain about 18 months ago, dr had xrays done they showed nothing, so then a Cat scan which showed inflamation in two tendons, 6months of physio later and it was just as bad as before, last month I got a Cortisone injection which while it has stopped the localised pain hasn't stopped the pain all round the area so now it's time for more scans and then probably an op as the suspicion is there isn't room for two of the tendons to go past each other. I have had the same issue before about 10 years ago and it sorted itself after about 2 years.

The physio was thinking it was about unbalanced musculature, I am apparently very heavily muscled (according to her not me!) and there is more strength in the front than the back so it is pulling the shoulder forward and not allowing the shoulderblade to rotate properly. after a session with her I had 2-3 days where it was better but then every time it just returned to the same.

Symptoms for me are limited mobility, holding my arm in-front of me and doing a thumbs up I can only lift it to about 50 degrees above horizontal. it's not pain that stops it, it just simply won't move any further. HOWEVER straight after getting up in the morning I can easily lift it straight up like normal.
There's a constant dull ache in the joint, the highest rib sticks out noticeably by my neck and any movement/tensing can cause a real stabbing pain, sneezing is terrible.
 
Jay Angler
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Skandi Rogers wrote:

The physio was thinking it was about unbalanced musculature...

My Dad had a similar issue, although it was R vs L pulling on his spine. (too much tennis playing all Right handed). He was told to put a weight in his left hand and do exercises which mimicked what he did with his right and it seemed to help. In your case, Skandi, it sounds as if you need to exercise muscles that pull your shoulders back, and shoulder blades towards your spine, which is what I did some work with my most recent shoulder pain. Just lying flat on the floor was painful for months when I'd first lay down, but now I can do it easily.

after a session with her I had 2-3 days where it was better but then every time it just returned to the same.

Similar with me, until two things happened - 1. my sterno-clavicular joint got freed up and 2. I took Vit B. Your description suggests to me that the poor shoulderblade rotation is part of the problem, but not the whole problem. Can the physio give you specific exercises to practice the proper pattern?

HOWEVER straight after getting up in the morning I can easily lift it straight up like normal.

That suggests you may be hunching forward during the day, or your spinal discs are shrinking during the day. My friend has a weird contraption that she can clamp her legs into and tip it back until she's slightly hanging head down - only about 15 degrees from horizontal when she started. This is like having very gentle spinal traction safely done at home (so long as you don't try going further than your body thinks is comfortable!) If the machines weren't so bulky and expensive, I'd try one at home myself.

the highest rib sticks out noticeably by my neck  

That suggests that at least part of the problem is coming from the spine, or the clavicle. If the clavicle's in the wrong spot, but the rib's in the right spot, it might look out of place. In a mirror, do your clavicles look similar on both sides?
 
John F Dean
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Hi Heather,  

The pain has reduced by 50% already.  Thanks for the exercises and dx information.    I am going with it being a pinched nerve with rotator cuff as a possibility. It has drifted down from being pain to being a sore shoulder.  
 
Heather Sharpe
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John F Dean wrote:Hi Heather,  

The pain has reduced by 50% already.  Thanks for the exercises and dx information.    I am going with it being a pinched nerve with rotator cuff as a possibility. It has drifted down from being pain to being a sore shoulder.  


Hi John! You're welcome! So glad to hear that you're feeling so much improvement! Those guys are great, saved me tons of times. If it's a pinched nerve, Saint John's Wort could be helpful, topically or internally. It can interact with several prescriptions, so do your research if you want to try it. Might be okay topically, probably better that way anyhow.
 
John F Dean
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I have made an effort to use the exercises, more or less, through the present.  The discomfort continues to reduce.
 
pollinator
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After a car accident, I had back pain for a long time. It seemed to effect my ability to get a good night’s sleep, especially when I traveled and was sleeping on mattresses away from home. I did chiropractic care, therapeutic massage, Epsom salt baths, and stretching. Something else that helped was an ‘on the go’ travel wool from Holy Lamb Organics. https://www.holylamborganics.com/collections/clearance/products/clearance-happy-lamb-fleece-topper I made sure it was under the area that was in pain when I slept and it made a big difference for me.

Best wishes
 
pollinator
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My shoulder injury took over a year to heal up. At times it was debilitating.

I made some changes to my work environment which helped. I’m a teacher and do a lot of whiteboard writing. I got a plinth to stand on, so I didn’t need to raise my arm so much. I also changed my bedding - I got some bulky buckwheat filled pillows to change my sleeping position and take the pressure off.

I’m certain that these things helped me stop aggravating it and made the recovery much faster.

Might there be similar changes you can make?
 
John F Dean
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Two months in and the discomfort continues to lessen.  From time to time I get some weird numbness, but I have been able to dig over 100 feet of trench by hand without any real problem.  
 
John F Dean
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I figured I would follow up.  The pain is gone. At the time I wrote the initial post, I was wearing suspenders daily. They were holding up some pretty heavy Duluth Trading Company work pants.  In November, my work hours as a nurse increased, and I started wearing lighter clothes without suspenders more. The pain vanished.  Yes, I experimented a little.  The pain began to return as I wore the heavier clothes and suspenders for long hours.   I still wear my work clothes, but only as they are needed.

And yes, the exercises did help significantly.
 
Carla Burke
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I've had debilitating shoulder problems for years, due to injuries, so I had to stop carrying a bag on my shoulder, a very long time ago. But, I love my overalls, and have shortalls, and one that I made into a dress... Learning - and remembering not to weigh them down by heavily loading the pockets and belt loops is an ongoing battle - especially when I head out to work on the homestead, and need my hands free!
 
Lorinne Anderson
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John,  this is sounding reminiscent of my slip and fall that ever so slightly dislocated my shoulder. Nothing found by docs, or x,-ray but a swift yank and pop by the Chiropractic solved the 6 mth problem in 3 seconds.

Sounds like one unhappy (pinched) nerve along there that is positioned just right for your suspenders to hit.
 
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Activities which require the involvement of the shoulder can make the shoulder hurt if the act is repeated. These are a common occurrence for those who are in some kind of sporting event. Commonly this is referred to as a rotator cuff injury. Well if you don't like to visit a doctor then I guess you have to seek an appointment with a physical therapist who can help you learn some specific workouts which can help control the pain in the shoulder. But I am afraid if the problem still recurs then you might require to have an injection to alleviate the pain.

When the shoulder has been hurting I've managed to keep it tolerable by doing some shoulder therapy exercises with a shoulder pulley that I found using google.

Rosa
 
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I dont know about old wounds but there are some recent development that is really interesting.

Just a couple of years ago we thought that knee-pain was necessary, that was until the "knees-over-toes-guy" understood that lifting with your knees extending over your toes is the only thing that strengtens, not hurts it (at least in a particular way!?!?) Which was what was spread far and wide and in every strata of society for decades, thereby eliminating the only cure there was for hurting knee... but is this the same for wounded shoulder.. i want to guess i know but i dont. If it was someone who would know if it helps or not - its him. He is shoulder (heh) above "everyone" else - there are some who also have renown, but I dont know their names on the top of my head...

Check out "knees over toes guy", he had a lot of surgery but it didnt help.  He knows alot about everything, and has contact and experience with a lot of people that rehabilitates.. his regime which is mainly for free, but I think you can contact him through an app if you pay a certain fee or something, and he should have more experience concering all kinds of these problems. Check him out!


Or just take the risk of letting me teach you (and then we learnt that in that particular instance... it just made everything worse! lol)
 
John F Dean
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Hi Rosa,

Welcome to Permies.
 
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Jay Angler wrote:That suggests you may be hunching forward during the day, or your spinal discs are shrinking during the day. My friend has a weird contraption that she can clamp her legs into and tip it back until she's slightly hanging head down - only about 15 degrees from horizontal when she started. This is like having very gentle spinal traction safely done at home (so long as you don't try going further than your body thinks is comfortable!) If the machines weren't so bulky and expensive, I'd try one at home myself.

the highest rib sticks out noticeably by my neck  

That suggests that at least part of the problem is coming from the spine, or the clavicle. If the clavicle's in the wrong spot, but the rib's in the right spot, it might look out of place. In a mirror, do your clavicles look similar on both sides?



Just to point this out again for people who might also be having shoulder problems. One of the first signs that my neck was getting arthritis was my shoulder hurting. Turned out my posture (scrunched and hunched) combined with a family history of arthritis had increased inflammation in my spine and worn down the cartilage. The pain had first radiated out to my shoulder before locating more specifically on my spine. Physical therapy helped immensely, though if I don't do my exercises often enough the pain comes back.

But yah, shoulder pain could actually be back pain.
 
pollinator
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John Dean, its great to know you have recovered and amazing your heavy daks may have been the problem.
I have raced motorcycles for over 50 years and have broken my neck, back, hips and ribs.
ApaRT FROM THAT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ME.
I have regularly had massage for years and I think in my case its what has helped to keep me supple, plus being aware of the condition of my body.
I sometimes over work the body and need a wall hook to get out of bed, but a few minutes of movement and being careful for a few hours I am good again.
I actively study how I am doing things and design gadgets to take strain off my fingers, hands arms etc.
So far its working for me at 72 years young!
I hope others get an idea from my story.
 
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