• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Leigh Tate
  • jordan barton
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Nicole Alderman
stewards:
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
  • Greg Martin
master gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Jay Angler
gardeners:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Mike Barkley
  • L. Johnson

2" water pump hose reduction size?

 
Posts: 103
13
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey folks,

I hope this is in the correct forum?

I have a 2" gas motor water pump that I need to pump our brook water approx 400' up a moderate to steep incline. I'd like to save some $$ and reduce the 2" lay flat hose section down to garden hose size (which I have hundreds of feet). Would this burn out my pump due to the reduced pressure? Is this not a good idea? This will be the first attempt at harvesting water from our brook down in the valley. We already have a ramjet pump installed, this pump is simply to increase speed to fill up our totes and small pond.

Many thanks for advice on this!
 
pollinator
Posts: 2808
Location: Bendigo , Australia
204
dog gear plumbing earthworks bee building homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
By reducing the diameter of the discharge line from 2 inch to 1/2 inch the volume of water moved will collapse.
The frictional losses will be so great water may not even get out the end.
Pumps and discharge lines are matched for efficiency.

Depending on the volume you need to move, the ram pump over a 24 hour period will shift a lot of water.

Perhaps look at the cost of the different types of pipe.
Poly irrigation pipe is long lasting compared with some lay flat hoses.
The difference in cost may justify the better pipe.
A smaller capacity pump maybe worth considering, but if you are using a generic fire pump, it will need to run at a slower speed.

Do you have the flow in the brook to feed a 2inch pump?
 
Michael Adams
Posts: 103
13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for your reply John, that's what I thought. Our brook runs year round and has good depth and flow, so I'm confident it will supply the 2".

I'm still new to irrigation. Do they make a 2" black pipe? We need to have a minimum of a 400' run, so I imagine that would be quite the spool.

My other concern is the incline. Although I don't know what it is in degrees, its a 50m length to the orchard. It's a moderate to steep incline...we're slightly winded when we walk up from the brook..lol.

Although the ramjet is great, it doesn't provide the GPM we require during the dry season. We would like to be able to re-fill our totes within a couple of hours for watering during these times.

I still have the 2" pump in the box and could return for a 1" if need be if it would save some $$$ on pipe/hose. Any further insight to our water movement goals is appreciated. Thanks!

 
pollinator
Posts: 2011
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
498
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Edit: whoops, Michael, you were quicker posting than me.

I think John C. gave some good advice.

No, you won't burn out your pump feeding into a small hose, but it will be quite inefficient in terms of energy use vs. water moved. You have both the elevation gain and the frictional loss working against you. If it's a one-time thing it's still worth a try, but keep your expectations low and be prepared to fuss with it.

It sounds like this is an annual thing, not a one-time event. If you can move up to at least 1" or 1-3/4" poly pipe, you will probably be happier with the results.
 
Michael Adams
Posts: 103
13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
As stated, this is about moving water and re-filling....not a one time thing.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1765
Location: Victoria BC
281
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
2" black poly is available.. but not from my preferred irrigation store, and it's pricey up here in canuckistan.

I have been satisfied with the performance of 1.5" schedule 100 poly with my 2" gas pump, though my runs are mostly shorter. I don't think I would go lower than that...
 
John C Daley
pollinator
Posts: 2808
Location: Bendigo , Australia
204
dog gear plumbing earthworks bee building homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
OK, time for reality to come to the fore.
I have had a lot to do with irrigation, and the #1 problem is people save money on pipe and have high running costs and longer time taken to do anything.
If you think about it, irrigation is a long term project and saving $300 now will feel good, for a while.
Friction caused by the water speed is the issue, its energy draining.
And waiting for tanks to fill is another issue that will arise in the future.

100M lengths of 2 inch pipe will cost about $700 depending which one you get.
Fittings are about $45 each!!!
But if you plan it right it will be fabulous and never need replacement.

If you want to send me details of what you are doing I will try to help.
Distances, tank volumes, what you are irrigating, elevations at brook, orchard, and beyond where you might think about a tank on a hill.
I rarely step down pipes, which is popular for people to do because you may change the plan in 5yrs time and derrrrr!
Think also about running a pipe around the whole area to ensure an even water pressure and flow is available.
That circle maybe in from the perimeter of your field, along a track make it fit the landscape.
 
pollinator
Posts: 1899
Location: RRV of da Nort
396
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This seemed like the best place to post this question.

I now have a small Honda semi-trash pump with 2" intake/outlet that is helping me irrigate a garden in a drought period.  Normally watering would be a once-every-other-week affair in our location, but this year just "no rain, much pain" and we are watering every other day....all watering done around dusk to reduce evaporation before the plants can suck it up.  The garden is ~200 ft from the river and the vertical drop from the hose outlet in the garden to the river surface is about 20 ft maximum.  The pump is positioned right alongside the river so that the distance from the water surface to the impeller intake is about 1.5 ft.  The 2" outlet from the pump is immediately stepped down to a garden hose.....and so far that pressure seems very good.  The pump supposedly *can* run a bit over 2 hr on one tank of gas and most of my watering takes about 30 - 45 minutes to complete.  I don't know, considering this arrangement, how much it can take before seals need replacement or other aspects need repair/rebuilding, but it's been nice to know we aren't putting more wear on our deep well pump.  

I'm hoping this will not be an annual issue....most years we would only need to water a few times during the growing season.  Any comments on the set-up would be welcomed especially as to best practice for pump storage in the off season.  In addition to draining both the gas and the water reservoirs, i there a pump storage fluid available to maintain the integrity of the pump innards?  Thanks!
 
John C Daley
pollinator
Posts: 2808
Location: Bendigo , Australia
204
dog gear plumbing earthworks bee building homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If you used 2 inch from the pump the 35 minutes would drop and you may useless fuel.
I have not heard of anything to put inside the pump chamber, and I have not heard of any problems if they are drained.

I had one pump that had a manufactured hole in the air filter box.
It allowed rain to enter and the valve became seized!!!
Check you pump is waterproof.
 
Douglas Alpenstock
pollinator
Posts: 2011
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
498
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

John Weiland wrote:I now have a small Honda semi-trash pump with 2" intake/outlet that is helping me irrigate a garden in a drought period.  ...  The 2" outlet from the pump is immediately stepped down to a garden hose......


20' is a modest rise, though the pipe reduction means you're losing a lot of efficiency. As John C suggests, a larger pipe woulcl be much more efficient in volume produced and energy expended. But in a semi-emergency, the art of the possible comes first. I get your situation -- we are also experiencing drought, and taking extraordinary measures to keep our gardens alive and productive. Luck!
 
Posts: 1280
75
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I used to run 2" pumps to feed my drip irrigation over about 800 or more feet, use the 2" as far as it will go and then split it into several outlets for your garden hose. by adjusting the output through several smaller pipes you can control volume and pressure.
as far as how long pump will last it will last as long as it will last. most small pumps like that are governed to run at wide open throttle and engine life will depend on how well it is maintained and the build quality of motor. usually the only thing that can go wrong on the pump end is seals can fail after time unless debris like rocks get into them and beat up impeller.
 
master gardener
Posts: 3779
Location: southern Illinois.
1120
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig bee solar wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Interesting discussion.  So on the discharge end of things, what about a manifold with multiple garden hoses?
 
John F Dean
master gardener
Posts: 3779
Location: southern Illinois.
1120
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig bee solar wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Bruce’s post appeared just as I was composing mine. It looks like he and I are on the same page.  What are the problems with this approach?
 
bruce Fine
Posts: 1280
75
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
yes a manifold at end of 2" run of pipe to split it up to your  garden hoses.

there would be several ways to do it but most straight forward would be 2" tees connected to one another with reducers to garden hose vales with a elbow at one end with reducer to garden hose valve and a 2" barbed nipple to connect to flexible 2" with hose clamps or band-it if you have one, unless there is already a fitting at end of your 2" , probably 6 of them would do it. this way you would have plenty of valves to regulate pressure and volume with the garden hose valves.
 
Douglas Alpenstock
pollinator
Posts: 2011
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
498
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Or pump water, efficiently, to a tank from which you can gravity drain the water (also efficiently).
 
John Weiland
pollinator
Posts: 1899
Location: RRV of da Nort
396
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Or pump water, efficiently, to a tank from which you can gravity drain the water (also efficiently).



Good continuing discussion and ideas.  Actually, this gravity feed idea is the one I would have preferred to implement.  I could even fill a 150 - 250 gal tank down near the river and haul it back up on my tractor's front loader.  It's the elevation aspect for gravity feed that I'm unsure of.  I'm not looking for fire-hose pressure, but am also unsure of how high the tank would need to be raised to get "decent" pressure for the watering.  Anything position above the highest point along the hose run would do for transfer out of the tank, but I suspect it would be more of a soaker-hose type result.  In the long run, this may be the way to go as long as the tank is emptied and stored property during winter.
 
John C Daley
pollinator
Posts: 2808
Location: Bendigo , Australia
204
dog gear plumbing earthworks bee building homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Pumping to a tank and then gravity feeding from it would be the most efficient method.
But the tank needs to be big enough to take the volume of water you intend to use each day.
Otherwise it will overflow as the pump keeps driving water into the tank.
If you choose a smaller tank a double ball valve may help.
They limit the flow when the tank is full and allow the water to enter the tank when the level has dropped a certain amount.
They are best with auto start pressure electric pumps.

The height for the tank is a function of the following variables;
- time to drain tank
- pipe sizes
- length of pipes
- elevation of the tank about the watered area.

In my experience a 4 foot elevation would be a minimum. BUT you will need 1 1/2 inch lines as a minimum for the grid and feed line and nothing less than 1 inch black poly for the arterial lines.
Soakers will not work , and I find valves on the end of 1/2 inch poly at each plant is easy to balance.
The system needs to be balanced so most water does not go to the lowest point.
Balance is achieved by adjusting the valves at the low points smaller than those at the higher elevation.
and try to create fully connected distribution systems so water can flow all around the garden plot.
IE a grid system.
If you fiddle with small pipes etc, because of cash flow maybe the garden is too big at the moment.

 
John Weiland
pollinator
Posts: 1899
Location: RRV of da Nort
396
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A couple of added photos.  The river shot was taken last week and already I'm having to move the pump farther away from shore to accommodate the receding river edge.  The second photo shows the step-down set up and attachments.  Short back-story is that the Honda pump is living up to its reliability reputation.  After using it for some flooding prior to 2010, it sat neglected in the corner of a dusty outbuilding until a few weeks ago.  Initially I thought it was a fixed throttle....only because the components were hopeless rusted together.  A few days of basting it in rust-remover and the parts began to move again. With some engine cleaner and fresh gas, it fired back up pretty quickly (making sure to have water in the pump head during this test).  My only lament with these pumps is the wish for a 'clutch' so that you could keep the engine running and stop the pump.
IMG-2284.JPG
[Thumbnail for IMG-2284.JPG]
IMG-2285.JPG
[Thumbnail for IMG-2285.JPG]
 
John F Dean
master gardener
Posts: 3779
Location: southern Illinois.
1120
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig bee solar wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi John D

Why don’t soaker hoses work?   Not enough pressure?
 
John C Daley
pollinator
Posts: 2808
Location: Bendigo , Australia
204
dog gear plumbing earthworks bee building homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
YEs JD, the pressure is inadequate and of course gets worse as the tank level drops.

JW what good is a clutch when you can just turn off the motor?
Is it hard to start?
 
John Weiland
pollinator
Posts: 1899
Location: RRV of da Nort
396
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

John C Daley wrote:  .....JW what good is a clutch when you can just turn off the motor?
Is it hard to start?



No....actually it's one of the easiest motors I've ever had the pleasure to pull-start.  In general, I think it's a concept thing......I'm so accustomed to units that have an engine that is separate from the drive train that is separate again from the power take-off.  Even my walk-behind tiller won't spin the tines until I engage them.  Also, I envision perhaps some time when I would want to work on and run the engine and am worried that the pump vanes also would be spinning.....which is kind of a no-no if I don't continually add water to the reservoir, yes?   Or no?  If I could disengage it during that time, I would worry less.    

One more question while this thread is 'smokin'.... :-)    ....and this pertains to the use of a tank that would be filled from a body of water.  I recall seeing pumps that ran off a brand of pond-aerating windmill (Koenders, I think.... ).  Given the wind potential of our area, is there either a vertical or horizontal turbine wind-powered option for transferring water from a pond/river to a tank that is nearby the river? ..... or even a few hundred feet away from the water?  In this case, I would not worry so much about rate of flow since it would just fill when the wind blew and the tank would be filled and ready when needed.  Thanks!
 
Posts: 11
3
bike rocket stoves homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi everyone, this is a really interesting discussion. Love problem solving when it comes to moving water from A to B (usually uphill!!)

As an outta-the-box suggestion, how much rainwater do you get where you live? Sounds like you're trying to irrigate a garden, and you might be better in luck diverting any rainwater you collect straight to your garden rather than pushing water up from your brook at the bottom of the hill? Just some thoughts.

Naturally I can see if that was contemplated before, since this is some riveting group problem-solving with pumps and hoses!!
 
bruce Fine
Posts: 1280
75
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I don't see a float at end of suction pipe , a piece of rope and old bleach bottle will suspend it off bottom and prevent anything but water entering pump. will help to increase pump life.
 
John Weiland
pollinator
Posts: 1899
Location: RRV of da Nort
396
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Renee Puvvada wrote:...... how much rainwater do you get where you live? Sounds like you're trying to irrigate a garden, and you might be better in luck diverting any rainwater you collect straight to your garden rather than pushing water up from your brook at the bottom of the hill?



Yeah, normally having to water like this is not a problem.....the garden is sizable (~50 X 50 ft) and rather far away from rain catchment.  With the current year's drought, we are having to use extraordinary measures.  Hoping it's not a new climate trend, but if it is, we will have to re-think our garden strategy.


bruce Fine wrote:I don't see a float at end of suction pipe , a piece of rope and old bleach bottle will suspend it off bottom and prevent anything but water entering pump. will help to increase pump life.



Actually there is a float.....if you look in that top photo you can just see a 2X4 piece of wood floating out in the water to the right of the pump location.  The end of the hose is tied to that to keep it off the bottom, but just submerged enough to avoid sucking air.

An LOL moment last night.  Was just testing to see if the pressure would be enough to drive a sprinkler head....standard unit from a hardware store, but one that has been in storage for a decade or so.  It was not working when I fired everything up and I was beginning to worry the pressure would not be sufficient from this pump.  Finally dismantled the sprinkler head and found it packed with ..... LENTILS!   You read that right.  Some enterprising mouse during some winter had decided to use the intake port of the sprinkler as legume storage.   With lentils removed, sprinkler worked just fine! HA!...

Never a dull moment!.....
 
Renee Puvvada
Posts: 11
3
bike rocket stoves homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Just fantastic. I can just imagine the gears working in your head figuring out the sprinkler/mouse situation.

Super happy to hear the sprinkler has been figured out.

Good to know about the garden, that makes it difficult... I can also see in the meantime, as you wait for rain, creating some French drains or berms to move water to the garden anyway... so that when it does rain, at least it's flowing right to the place you're trying to move water to in the end.

Sprinkler a great fix regardless.

 
Nothing up my sleeve ... and ... presto! A tiny ad:
Rocket Mass Heater Manual - now FREE for a while
https://permies.com/t/138802/Rocket-Mass-Heater-Manual-FREE
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic