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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 99% of all forums and social media sites are now dead

 
steward
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And yet we remain.

I wish I could remember the name of the site that was like facebook for green and eco stuff.  It had a cool name.  I tried to post there, but I was pretty much ignored.  Beautiful site with paid staff.  I seem to remember that part of their thing was that their staff was well paid and had sweet bennies.  And they hyperfocused on making it a welcoming and comfortable work place.  

I remember trying to tell some people that permies was a kind of social media.  But they would do that sort of scoff-laugh thing - speaking without words the message was "dream on buddy."  

And then one day an email was sent out to say that they closed their doors.  The debts racked up and the only thing left to do was to close. Snap - gone.  In an instant.

So I guess their business model didn't work.  

Permies used to run the google ads.   The google ads paid great for a few months, and then it shrunk down to about $20 per month of income.  So the whole site was a $20 per month whore.  I dropped those ads.   We offer a variety of ads that people can buy, self serve.   We offer the PIE program so users can pay for extra features and stuff.   Our monthly income from those two things don't even pay the server bill.

For that eco site - I suppose they got something like ten million bucks to start, and maybe another ten million to keep going, and eventually it was clear that there was no income model to keep it going while so much money was being spent every month - so they couldn't even sell the business to somebody.  And the people managing the site refused to do it unless they were getting paid big with big bennies and a sweet work environment.

Sometime around 2000 I used a forum tied to a magazine and the nasty was too much for their paid staff, so they gave the forum to a guy.  The whole thing.  For free.   In time that guy sold the forum to a company that just filled the forum with ads.  Wow - so many ads.  I bet you have been to a forum where the ad space is 20 times more than the space for the threads.  And the ads have videos that play when you open a thread.   Are they getting just $20 a month for all those ads?  Maybe they know ad stuff that I don't know.  

When I moved to mount spokane in 2000 I tried to find a regional forum to learn regional things.   I found one run by the local paper.  It was clearly unmoderated.  There were six people that were extremely hostile to each other and anybody else that would be foolish enough to post there.   About six months later the newspaper just turned it off.  

Are the PRI forums still working?

Over the years so many forums and social media sites have come and gone.   Thousands?  Millions?   Yes there are a few big ones that have stood the test of time - complete with paid staff.  They did big things that I don't understand.  Facebook makes huge money by their self-serve ads.  


In the last year I read stuff in a half dozen different places that all internet forums are dead.  They died because they were taken over by trolls - and there is no defense against trolls. I suspect that the stories are 100,000 times more complicated than that, but yeah ... fuckin trolls.

We're still here.  I think we don't have trolls.  I think our conversation is as rich as ever.  We had a beautiful growth spurt in the late spring - that was cool.   I like the idea of infecting more brains with permaculture - using this website as the primary platform.     I think it would be cool if this site was a hundred times bigger - so we would be infecting a hundred times more brains with permaculture stuff.  Yeah.



 
pollinator
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Moderation, dedication, and an unpayable debt to the volunteers who keep this site at an astounding level of quality.
The 'radical' idea that all ideas are welcome, so long as they are worded with decorum and respect.
The passion and enthusiasm of the users from pollinators to first time posters is evident.

These are ingredients in Permies.com's success. Leavened with long hours and I'm sure, money.

Paul. I've worked for organizations where 'company' finances are an off-limits subject, I've also worked where the staff are fully aware of the bottom line and financial health of the company they work for. I've always found that the open book organizations have more buy-in and participation from their employees... In cases where the money news is not looking so great, the self-interested and moochers tend to flee, it's almost a self regulating system.

Your system of rewards for quality participation are right out of the social media playbook, but not in their narcissistic vein. Getting Apples (or pie!) instead of 'likes' or 'views' feels more tangible and more like a true reward rather than a shared opinion circle-jerk.

I came to Permies for the quality of information, I've stayed because of the community; but it's not a tight knit group of auto-diktats telling the world how to be 'perfect'; like they are. It's a diversity of opinion and thought that weaves the strength into the fabric of Permies, as rough and homespun as it sometimes is.

Inclusion, diversity, openness, civil discourse... we the world are thirsty for these things, whether we know it or not.
 
paul wheaton
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I needed to write this in a feeble attempt to guide people that are struggling with this community ....

We wish to grow ...  we wish to infect more brains with permaculture ...  we wish to be inclusive ...  

At the same time, the permaculture of 15 years ago was ruled by a handful of people that were unkind.  And when their empires dissolved, or shrunk, they would come here to push their awful stuff and demand that their way is THE way for permaculture.  What I saw was permaculture being stagnated by a few dozen awful people - each with a different flavor of awful.  And the thousands of permaculture people seeking a decent community couldn't find one.   I know I couldn't find one.  So I created this site to be a place to talk about the stuff I want to talk about in the way I want to talk about it.  The design is simple and for a much smaller group.   But it seems there were a lot more people that are cool with this approach than I originally predicted.   I now like the idea that people that want to grow in this space have a safe place to grow.  

So when people come and say that this site MUST be run their way instead of my way ....    instead of OUR way ....  then I can direct them to this thread.  

We have a recipe that appears to be working.   Working for us anyway.  And, frankly, the recipe they propose is almost always a recipe I have heard of before - and it is a recipe that I think will end up in the pile of 99%.  

Further, the people that insist that we must comply with their way ...   they have never managed a site.  So they don't know about the issues that seem like they would work, but in the end don't.

So the hope is that maybe people will read this thread (maybe even before making their stand) and try to understand that we have an unusual recipe.  Maybe the fact that 99% of other attempts have failed will inspire such a person to give our recipe a shot.  It seems that they all like what they have found here - maybe give this recipe a bit more effort before shouting "OBEY OR ELSE."


 
gardener
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paul wheaton wrote:
In the last year I read stuff in a half dozen different places that all internet forums are dead.  They died because they were taken over by trolls - and there is no defense against trolls. I suspect that the stories are 100,000 times more complicated than that, but yeah ... fuckin trolls.

We're still here.  I think we don't have trolls.  I think our conversation is as rich as ever.  



The open web is ALMOST completely dead.  If you aren't part of one of the stacks (Google, Facebook, Apple) there's no business model that works.  A very few, very special old-school open-web communities and sites remain.  Most of them make up for lack of a business model by having a strong community.  I don't know the back-end numbers or how much coin Paul spends out of his pocket keeping this place up, but I do know that without the strong community of volunteer staff it wouldn't be the kind of special that it is.  

I never talk about my own websites here because they don't overlap with permaculture subjects.  But I have been making one or another sort of half-assed living on the open web for about twenty years now.  It used to be a fuck-ton easier.  But the stacks made sure there was no money in advertising available to open-web competitors.  And it's harder and harder for traffic and eyeballs to escape from the stack-owned social media sites.  It take serious work and person-power to have any kind of community; trolls are always looking for a place to shit.  

paul wheaton wrote:At the same time, the permaculture of 15 years ago was ruled by a handful of people that were unkind.  And when their empires dissolved, or shrunk, they would come here to push their awful stuff and demand that their way is THE way for permaculture.  What I saw was permaculture being stagnated by a few dozen awful people - each with a different flavor of awful.  And the thousands of permaculture people seeking a decent community couldn't find one.   I know I couldn't find one.  So I created this site to be a place to talk about the stuff I want to talk about in the way I want to talk about it.



This reminds me of something I saw on Twitter today.  Permaculture has a terrible reputation in some quarters.  This person, who I follow because they have a lot of interesting ideas, was ranting about something else when they said "Oh and add permaculture to the burn pile while we're at it. It's cool in theory but in reality it's white hippies on the lecture circuit w shit they either stole from Indigenous farmers or just made up."  I think we can all think of figures in "internet permaculture" who have contributed to that reputation.  The assessment is unkind and incomplete but it's part of what we struggle with.
 
pollinator
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Dan, that's funny; I don't know a single person that didn't learn permaculture on the internet (and maybe bought some books later on, but maybe not...) and yet there is this thing that you called "internet permaculture", quite different from any reality. I wonder how it happened with such a down to earth concept.
 
master steward
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Dan Boone wrote:This person, who I follow because they have a lot of interesting ideas, was ranting about something else when they said "Oh and add permaculture to the burn pile while we're at it. It's cool in theory but in reality it's white hippies on the lecture circuit w shit they either stole from Indigenous farmers or just made up."  I think we can all think of figures in "internet permaculture" who have contributed to that reputation.  The assessment is unkind and incomplete but it's part of what we struggle with.



I am once again very happy that my first real encounter with permaculture was with Joel Salatin and permies. I saw Joel in some documentary years ago, and heard him talk about permaculture, or something that gave the search terms that located permaculture. And using the search term of permaculture, I found permies. And permies had answers. Permies had awesome, helpful people. So I joined. It is the only forum I joined because of my own interest (I hung out on a paleo forum because my husband was on it.... that forum is now dead. Like so many other forums.).

I don't know about these nasty people giving permaculture a bad name, because I don't really see them here on permies. The flavor of permaculture that I think of as the "default" is the one here on permies. And, I'm really thankful for that!

You'd be amazed at the things we volunteers do to try and keep permies going. The things we do to make sure we keep showing up in google so more people can learn about permaculture. We test for bugs, we test new programming. We run giveaways, delete spam, answer emails, develop PEP, write dailyishes, move posts and threads, answer questions, promote on social media, and so much more. All without pay aside from a wonderful sense of community and feeling of making the world a better place. We do so much, and many days it doesn't feel like enough. But we keep at it because this site is something important and beautiful. I, for one, am very grateful to be a part of this site, and I want to make sure it lasts for many more years to come.

We've transformed many lives through this site. We've transformed many acres of land through this site and the actions of individuals on it. We're making the world a better place. We're fighting the good fight--let's not give up!
 
gardener
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Paul, Everyone,

A few years ago when I first joined, I knew Permies was the real deal.  Initially I was afraid, because of experience on other forums, to ask my simple question.  But everyone was just so welcoming and friendly that I kept coming back.  Paul, I am sure this is because of your "be nice" policy and I think that policy is what really sets Permies apart from so many other sites--the 99% as you call it.  And if the other 99% were being run by the "not nice" crowd, then you certainly saw something they didn't.

So the way I see it, the success of Permies really boils down to the overarching "be nice" policy that should be an obvious policy but apparently the management of other sites just can't wrap their heads around this simple concept.  

Permies is the real deal,

Eric
 
pollinator
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Is there anywhere here that talks about how permies first got started? Was it just Paul? Was there already a group of people? I've heard that without an initial critical mass of members, forums tend to flop. I was wondering how permies got over that hurdle.
 
paul wheaton
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Gilbert Fritz wrote:Is there anywhere here that talks about how permies first got started? Was it just Paul? Was there already a group of people? I've heard that without an initial critical mass of members, forums tend to flop. I was wondering how permies got over that hurdle.



It was just me.  But I had a lot of people emailing me asking questions about lawn care (because of my article) - so all that was moved to the forums.  And there were some people I knew that I hassled into getting things started.  And then I would make youtube videos and finish the videos directing people to the forums.  And then I would post those in other forums.
 
Nicole Alderman
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Gilbert Fritz wrote:Is there anywhere here that talks about how permies first got started? Was it just Paul? Was there already a group of people? I've heard that without an initial critical mass of members, forums tend to flop. I was wondering how permies got over that hurdle.



I wrote down a bit of the history in this thread, here: About Us here at Permies.com
 
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Grateful.  
 
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There are a variety of reasons for an organization not to succeed.   Dumb luck is certainly an element.  Sometimes, especially if serious Grant's are involved, the business is designed to fail.  Key staff are over paid, money is depleted,  bankruptcy happens, and the key staff walk with pockets full.  Sometimes, it is foolishness.  I started a company once. It worked for me for several years.  I turned it over to someone else. He decided he needed an office and a desk to sit behind. It folded in months.
 
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I, too, am grateful for this site and all the educational bennies I've enjoyed over the last 15 years.  I've been a dormant poster here for some time as I have worked my arse off building my empire/homeplace/home-in-stead but I am richer due to Rich Soils, Paul Wheaton, Permies.com, and all the princesses and princes The Duke introduced to me.  Thank Goodness for Permies!  I look forward to the next phase of application and implementation of the learnin' I've harvested (and continue to harvest) here.  Gaia Bless Us All!
 
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Please excuse me, but I'm going to shamelessly gush.

I, too, am grateful for this site and I am happy that after several years of just lurking I've started posting and interacting. I do feel that there is a nice, welcoming community here that is not only very knowledgable but (to me, at least) not intimidating. And that is important. Too many online places have an intimidation factor that makes it difficult to break in. Like cliques of friends who've been there forever and so forth or you feel silly asking questions, or just being new to the thing. But here, it's like, ”Hey! THERE'S A NEW GUY IN HERE EVERYBODY!!! YAHOO!!!" The breadth of experience is wide, from newbies like me, but are making progress, to seasoned experts to whom all this has been their natural lifestyle since before I learned how to spell permaculture.

I am still at that point where I am astounded that I can successfully do this or that, and *omigosh* I'm going to build my first hugelkultur bed. (Either before the snowfly season begins or in the Spring. But I am collecting the wood for it.)

Permies isn't technically a social network, but it has many of the characteristics. I am also finding myself spending more and more time here than on Facebook (my Facebook use has become dominated by administering a religious Group I inherited rather than just posting stuff to my Timeline.) I love the apples and twice boasted on Facebook about getting them. As soon as I get enough scratch in my PayPal I'm buying somebody pie. The Permies business model is interesting in that it is mostly self-contained? As in it's not dependent upon Google or some other ad revenue service, but is, well, Permies-based? It's like the money stays within the Permies community rather than a cut going off to Google. To me, it encourages people to stay here, ’take ownership’ and get more involved and assist in building up a unique Permies culture.  (Although I just realized that Amazon is used for the selling of books, but I still think the economic model here more closely resembles an online version of the ”buy local” ethic, yes? OK, self, stop talking...) At the very least, the ads here are informative.

Well, I just needed to gush a little about Permies. It has become an antidote to ”2020” and a bright spot this year. (Of course, because of the Coronavirus, I've had more time to spend in the garden and also here, but hey, we make the best of our circumstances and I am so glad that Permies has been a part of my coping with 2020.)  

P.S.: I think the name of that Facebook-like eco site was Earthineer? I think the surviving developers/investors converted their efforts into an online homesteading educational video site. I may have a link somewhere but I don't recall the name offhand. (I couldn't afford their courses.)
 
pollinator
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I think the key for most of the ones still running is a core dedicated group that puts in a large amount of unpaid effort to make them happen.  
 
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I feel almost dirty dragging the conversation from high-minded praise down to filthy lucre, but: how much pie would need to be purchased to cover the hard costs of keeping this site online?
 
C. Letellier
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One other question.  As the links to external stuff go down is there a legal way to keep the information without violating copy right?  In essence a screen shot/html shot of the site as it was when the site was running.  Guessing the answer is mostly no.  For example I went by a 9 year old thread just a bit ago with about 20 links in it that all the links were dead.  Some linked to public university stuff that can probably be found again by proper searches but other stuff is just gone.  Guessing the answer is no.  But just stirring the thinking pot.
 
Paul Sofranko
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C. Letellier wrote:One other question.  As the links to external stuff go down is there a legal way to keep the information without violating copy right?  In essence a screen shot/html shot of the site as it was when the site was running.  Guessing the answer is mostly no.  For example I went by a 9 year old thread just a bit ago with about 20 links in it that all the links were dead.  Some linked to public university stuff that can probably be found again by proper searches but other stuff is just gone.  Guessing the answer is no.  But just stirring the thinking pot.



Have you tried putting the URL in archive.org? (the ”Wayback Machine”)
 
pollinator
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I little off topic but I wonder if Permies could be partially hosted with IPFS https://ipfs.io/ to take some of the load off of the server bill. It might be possible for the people that volunteer to also host the site with ipfs nodes.
 
pollinator
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I just watched _The Social Dilemma_, (on Netflix) about how the algorithms in Facebook, Google, etc. work adn how they can even be used to destabilize democracies and feed people dopamine hits, etc.  I don't know if this is all accurate, that's just what the documentary said.  And they talked about it in ecologcial terms, interestingly--that business has always valued a dead tree more than a living oen, a dead whale more than a living one, and now its target is us--human beings.  

I wonder, if the problem is the solution, how the internet/permies can be used to modify behavior, or, less icky-sounding, to help motivate positive behavior...I think it already does, the badge system got me to try new things I wouldn't have tried and explore areas of permaculture I didn't even know existed (small woodworking).  Not earth-shattering, but it is an example.  It got me to build my first hugelbed, which in hindsight I know made ALL the rookie mistakes and then some expert-level mistakes too.  Like putting it in the shade of a pine tree, literally the driest part of the whole yard.  But that gave me valuable experience to learn from mistakes, much more valuable  and memorable than simply reading about mistakes.

They said in the film that these algorithms have a mind of their own, in a sense, they do machine learning to keep users and influence behavior as the advertisers who pay them desire.  

Having a feed is one way that they concretely deliver this addictiveness.

I'm not advocating for replicating the problem, but just also stirring the thinking pot.  Maybe a feed that stops and forces you to go outside and actually do something in your garden before you can get back to the feed? a feed that is related to issues you've been focusing on recently in your garden or landscape or life?  

(I'd still love to have a "function" search engine--a way of searching for things that serve a given function, like heat, or cleaning dishes, or disposing of poo, rather than by element--maybe a way to tag a thread based on the function that's being served.  some elements always serve certain functions, but others serve many, including ones that the person trying to serve a function woudln't think of.  And then it's often up to the more experienced volunteers to point the person back toward other elements they hadn't read about.)

I guess this is the wrong crowd for that, to start with, though.

I'm just spitballing here.  But I have the sense that these powerful influencing forces can be used for good as well as for destruction.

I also think that "un-technologies" like a garden or a drL instrument, technologies that involve living beings in a system interacting, can be interesting in a way that fake news is and even more so ( they said a study showed fake news travels 6x faster than actual news...but I wonder, isn't 2020 stranger than fake news yet??)

The feedback from a garden seems to come really, really slowly.  Not quarterly returns even, yearly, at the minimum.  Running a computer program takes a second to compile and run (probably less, nowadays) and then you get feedback--did it work or was there a bug producing an unwanted result?  But the feedback from the garden is so much more complex, richer, beautiful, 3d, colored, even scented and tasty.  How do we find that dialogue with nature where the feedback reinforces balanced choices and dissuades unbalanced ones?

Lastly, I've assumed my nextdoor.com feed was just listing everythign...but is it? is it being manipulated?? I'm going to try contacting my "lead" for the neighborhood, to see if I can see what she sees on her feed.  I'll be interested to see the results.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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yes, PRI forum still seems to be up, I haven't used it though I think I signed up for it...
obviously some things go by under-noticed.  but this also could use a bump on permies, so I'll re-post it here:

Screen-Shot-2020-10-06-at-1.15.55-AM.png
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!
 
paul wheaton
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Douglas Alpenstock wrote:I feel almost dirty dragging the conversation from high-minded praise down to filthy lucre, but: how much pie would need to be purchased to cover the hard costs of keeping this site online?



There is the bandwidth costs and the server costs.  And then the dev costs.  

Ignoring the server costs and the dev costs.    Let's just pit permies.com income against the bandwidth.  

Bandwidth is about $200 to $300 per month, average.  

PIE and advertising is about $20 to $25 per month, average.

That's a a LOT of PIE.  

 
paul wheaton
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Paul Sofranko wrote: The Permies business model is interesting in that it is mostly self-contained? As in it's not dependent upon Google or some other ad revenue service, but is, well, Permies-based? It's like the money stays within the Permies community rather than a cut going off to Google.



For years I paid for permies by continuing with my workee job.  And then I transitioned to paying for it with coderanch ads.  And then I developed permaculture artifacts.  Today, I pay for permies and all the projects at wheaton labs 100% with sales of permaculture stuff and kickstarters.

The ads you see on permies might be about 3% of that.



 
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paul wheaton wrote: Today, I pay for permies and all the projects at wheaton labs 100% with sales of permaculture stuff and kickstarters.



What kind of kickstarters? I'll give some thought to passive income options, my wife has some experience in this area.
 
Nicole Alderman
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Brian Holmes wrote:

paul wheaton wrote: Today, I pay for permies and all the projects at wheaton labs 100% with sales of permaculture stuff and kickstarters.



What kind of kickstarters? I'll give some thought to passive income options, my wife has some experience in this area.



Paul's DVDs and book and permaculture deck of cards were all funded by kickstarters. Here's a list of all his kickstarters: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/paulwheaton/created

If you look in his signature, there's a link to all of his stuff--most of it was funded by his kickstarters.  
 
Brian Holmes
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Nicole Alderman wrote:

Brian Holmes wrote:

paul wheaton wrote: Today, I pay for permies and all the projects at wheaton labs 100% with sales of permaculture stuff and kickstarters.



What kind of kickstarters? I'll give some thought to passive income options, my wife has some experience in this area.



Paul's DVDs and book and permaculture deck of cards were all funded by kickstarters. Here's a list of all his kickstarters: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/paulwheaton/created

If you look in his signature, there's a link to all of his stuff--most of it was funded by his kickstarters.  



Thanks for that, already see some playing cards I'm going to have to get!

Paul: I used to lurk here a number of years ago, and have returned here every now and again for the wonderful information. Thanks to you and the rest of the staff for keeping this going, it's quite the tome of experience and good humor
 
gardener
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I'll add my voice to to choir;

Permies is my social media/internet sharing outlet. For so many reasons.

The gentle and genteel company here is a big one of those reasons.
 
pioneer
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Flora Eerschay wrote:Dan, that's funny; I don't know a single person that didn't learn permaculture on the internet (and maybe bought some books later on, but maybe not...) and yet there is this thing that you called "internet permaculture", quite different from any reality. I wonder how it happened with such a down to earth concept.



I first found permaculture through a book I found on my mom's shelf. She didn't even know what it was, she bought the book and never read it! From that book I bought the recommended Gaia's Garden before really turning to the internet.

THEN when I went to the web I naturally found this forum.

Nicole Alderman wrote:We've transformed many lives through this site. We've transformed many acres of land through this site and the actions of individuals on it. We're making the world a better place. We're fighting the good fight--let's not give up!



Is there a post where people can go to report how many acres they have officially transformed using permaculture principals? I think it'd be super neat to have a quantifiable way to track how many acres Permies.com has had an impact on! If there isn't one, I'd love to start one.

Random note: I created my account on Permies a day or two after deleting the last social media app off my phone. I thought I'd be able to reduce my time on the internet... but it turns out I just replaced it by spending that time here! Time well spent.
 
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Ash Jackson wrote:I'll add my voice to to choir;

Permies is my social media/internet sharing outlet. For so many reasons.

The gentle and genteel company here is a big one of those reasons.


I do efforts to change my 'social media behaviour', be much more active here on Permies, instead of 'somewhere else on social media'. I have so many so-called 'friends' there, who are not really friends, and it's addictive....
Here at Permies there's the real communication, on really interesting subjects. Permies is the place to be!
Permies encourages to DO things, in real life, while the other 'social media' only invite to scroll along the posts or to watch videos ...
 
Paul Sofranko
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paul wheaton wrote:

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:I feel almost dirty dragging the conversation from high-minded praise down to filthy lucre, but: how much pie would need to be purchased to cover the hard costs of keeping this site online?


Bandwidth is about $200 to $300 per month, average.  

PIE and advertising is about $20 to $25 per month, average.

That's a a LOT of PIE.  


Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, Permies only earns $20+ in revenue from PIE and ads every month? That's like only 10ish slices of PIE sold monthly?
 
paul wheaton
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Paul Sofranko wrote:Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, Permies only earns $20+ in revenue from PIE and ads every month? That's like only 10ish slices of PIE sold monthly?



Maybe once or twice a year somebody buys a whole pie.   And pieces of pie are purchased about once every two months.

And I've paid several past assistants to help build up the pie program, and I paid a developer to develop the functionality.   Let's just say that all of pie is still deep in the red just from that.

Ads ...  I think somebody buys thread boost or dx5 every three months or so.  Usually for something like $20.  We did have a guy buy about $200 worth about a year ago.

 
pollinator
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I love this site and have learned so much that I share what I can with others. I have found a couple of local folks from this site and wish there were more. I would like to have more neighbors in walking distance or a short drive.  I would like to know more of the elderly who did things by hand before everything became cheap and order by internet.
I put together a website and tried to get people to contribute but they were only readers and not contributors. It has a zip code search function to locate people near you and includes all the hobbies I can think of.  A place to collaborate and bring the resources and the marketers together.  It still sits there (cohort.zone) waiting for someone with more skill and communication capability that I have.  
 
Dennis Bangham
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Paul Sofranko wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:I feel almost dirty dragging the conversation from high-minded praise down to filthy lucre, but: how much pie would need to be purchased to cover the hard costs of keeping this site online?


Bandwidth is about $200 to $300 per month, average.  

PIE and advertising is about $20 to $25 per month, average.

That's a a LOT of PIE.  


Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, Permies only earns $20+ in revenue from PIE and ads every month? That's like only 10ish slices of PIE sold monthly?



I often try to find the resources in Permies that are mentioned.  Seeds, plants, tools, myco and EM additives.  If you had a shameless "buy it here" site I would definitely use it.  A link to a store should be a way to bring in some additional cash.  If it produces a sale then all the better.
 
paul wheaton
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check my signature  

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Dennis Bangham
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I have the rocket mass heater dvd and the building a better world book.  And Sepp Holtzer's book. Been saving the books for when I travel for work but since the virus I am stuck at home.
 
Paul Sofranko
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Paul Sofranko wrote: As soon as I get enough scratch in my PayPal I'm buying somebody pie.



As promised, I just bought some PIE. Now, to eventually share it. I love this place.
 
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