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Suggestions for Yard nursery set up

 
Posts: 187
Location: Denia, Alicante, Spain. Zone 10. 22m height
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Hi everybody,

The moment has arrived without delay. As I start to plant trees and order plants, my credit card starts to say: you should spend more money in seeds, less in grown trees // plants. So that is what I want to do.

I’m going to still plant grown trees because I have many land to cover and I need them in some strategic points. But for the rest of the place, growing things in house should be the way to go, to learn and to play.

Thing is: I don’t know how to organize it! I have plenty of room, but don’t know the best way to go. There is a corner of 100sq meters looking great for it, but is far from the water connection. I could take it there, some how. Or I could buy / create a Bed for this. Other problem, for job reasons I’ll have to spend some time travelling, so I need water automation. In other part of the house I have drip, but I dont know if that is best for a nursery. I can do it also covered, or outside... so well, I think I have many options but I’m overwhelmed by them.

This is the 100sq m corner that I could adapt. What do you think?
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gardener
Posts: 410
Location: Monticello Florida zone 8a
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How often do you need to tend to them and is it proportional to the distance from the house? Start small (not too many pots to move to a better location) and see how it works. If there's a problem with it, consider moving it to a spot that fixes it.
 
Antonio Hache
Posts: 187
Location: Denia, Alicante, Spain. Zone 10. 22m height
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Huxley Harter wrote:How often do you need to tend to them and is it proportional to the distance from the house? Start small (not too many pots to move to a better location) and see how it works. If there's a problem with it, consider moving it to a spot that fixes it.



Hi! The problem is that I travel 450km away every two weeks 🤦‍♂️

I bought some propagators and I have them close to the main site
 
pollinator
Posts: 737
Location: Chicago
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What is your rain situation?  Could you set up a rainbarrel or several to collect water off the building in the picture? Then you could attach soaker hoses or drip hoses to the barrel tap and open the taps when you leave so that the plants get a slow deep watering whenever there is rain in the barrels.

I do this with my vegetable beds.
 
gardener
Posts: 866
Location: France, Burgundy, parc naturel Morvan
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Hi Antonio, it depends, i am doing a deep shaded north corner of my house for summer cuttings for things like sage,red/black currants, lavender etc they're in pot, sandy soil for good drainage,  i monitor them every other day, see what's suffering and what's doing ok. If they're ok i don't water, i want them to concentrate on making roots. If they are really doing good i move them a bit more north into a spot where they get some sun during the day, then more sun again.
That's spot one, then there is the tree nurserie that i've placed on my production field north to some big oaks, it's for the production of hazel nuts, chest nuts, and peaches from seed and cuttings of black/red currants, fig, willow etc. They get morning sun and a bit of evening sun during june/juli, totally shaded during the hot hours. It's been a record drought year of three in a row 1 time rain in three month, and i've watered three times during the season. The peaches are 3 feet or a meter high.
If i were you i'd go for an outside set up, water flooding can be very expensive. And sometimes maybe you can't make it, if the plants capable of fending for themselves in a drought period make it, that's a nice natural selection that you are going to want any way in the desert like conditions you're facing.
Speaking of which, there is this guy on Permies, Konstantinos a Greek man, he is reforesting land. This might interest you.

Konstantinos

First pic during heat wave, second one for morale, willow during spring

Your walled spot is like perfect for a tree nursery, you could make a wooden Acaia pseudorobinia (or anything)frame work and grow grapeviness up it and temporarily use the ivy to drape on top of it first years. It will shade a bit more in summer and in winter it will lose it's leaves. Am i right, do vines loose their leaves in Spain in winter?? You won't see the wall any more as well.


 
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Antonio Hache
Posts: 187
Location: Denia, Alicante, Spain. Zone 10. 22m height
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Mk Neal wrote:What is your rain situation?  Could you set up a rainbarrel or several to collect water off the building in the picture? Then you could attach soaker hoses or drip hoses to the barrel tap and open the taps when you leave so that the plants get a slow deep watering whenever there is rain in the barrels.

I do this with my vegetable beds.



Hi! My rain situation is: it rains a lot, it is one of the most rainy areas of the region, but it rains for 4-6 weeks and then stops for almost the whole year. Is like a Mediterranean Gung Ho Monsoon: la gota fría. We have an undreground well that we can use for irrigation. My grandma said it was endless but, who knows? Anyway, she irrigated the whole land by inundation , and it was 27.000 sq m. I'm more modest
 
pollinator
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Location: Utah
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Agreed, do water catchment. Big barrels or tanks, runoff from the roof of the structure, and have a battery operated timer that you turn on when you're not home to water. The "timer" could also be a young family member or neighbor if you have one who is trustworthy. If you're gone for a week at a time, that makes a difference. If you're only gone for a day or two you could time the watering so you water before you leave and then water when you get home. If the tanks empty and there's no rain in the forecast you can refill them before you leave.
 
Antonio Hache
Posts: 187
Location: Denia, Alicante, Spain. Zone 10. 22m height
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Watering won't be a problem as we have our own well. Now I am in Madrid, but I will give it a try when I go back, in a week if we have no more lockdowns.

About what Hugo said: what would be great is not seeing the wall! It is horrible , hehehe
 
Antonio Hache
Posts: 187
Location: Denia, Alicante, Spain. Zone 10. 22m height
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So, it is almost a year and I did nothing on this 😄

But the moment is arriving, I used to plant all the fruit seeds that I got but now I dont really know where to place them. And some of them, I prefer to raise them more focused (not just seed cocktails as I have been doing) and after that place it where I think is better. Oh, and also want to play and experiment.

Problem is, I have paralysis by analysis and getting so much info that I dont know where to star. I read this article and I am loving ALL the ideas 🤣

I like the Mark Shepard approach, Grant Schultz approach, I read on air prune and I like it... I need someone here who has been succesful and could i spire me with his experience

Article

https://permacultureapprentice.com/how-to-start-a-small-permaculture-nursery-and-grow-1000s-of-trees-by-yourself/
 
Hugo Morvan
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Location: France, Burgundy, parc naturel Morvan
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I don’t know those propagators you mentioned.
My tree nurserie is a passive shaded system by oak trees. Protecting the seedlings or cuttings from the worst of droughts. Between the nursery bed and the trees is a ditch which collects rainwater and some run off from the hill. I haven’t had to water a lot. Couple of times even in the driest of times. Couple of time chop and drop the weeding.
It’s twenty meter by one and a half.
Contains basketwillow hazelnuts sweet chestnut acacia pseudorobinia, ash, cassis berry, red currant, fig, plums, etc,
I don’t like airpruning because i do not have proof the big taproot will form at a later stage. I transplant my chestnuts after one year in autumn.
Pushed out 250 trees last year and hope to double that this year.
The first book i devoured in years was from Akiva Silver Trees of Power a very skilled down to earth tree grower in New York state i believe. He has ayou tube channel as well. Twisted tree farms. He is totally into airpruning by the way.
His book inspired me to grow more trees and to do a nursery in the sun with trees that are used as rootstock trees. You grow them at an angle close to the ground and then the branches go up. Covering them with woodchips or sawdust will make them root. I’m waiting for the saw dust to get devoured by mycelium so can’t comment if it really works that great.
Anyway that’s all i have to say from ecperience.
 
Antonio Hache
Posts: 187
Location: Denia, Alicante, Spain. Zone 10. 22m height
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Hugo Morvan wrote:I don’t know those propagators you mentioned.
My tree nurserie is a passive shaded system by oak trees. Protecting the seedlings or cuttings from the worst of droughts. Between the nursery bed and the trees is a ditch which collects rainwater and some run off from the hill. I haven’t had to water a lot. Couple of times even in the driest of times. Couple of time chop and drop the weeding.
It’s twenty meter by one and a half.
Contains basketwillow hazelnuts sweet chestnut acacia pseudorobinia, ash, cassis berry, red currant, fig, plums, etc,
I don’t like airpruning because i do not have proof the big taproot will form at a later stage. I transplant my chestnuts after one year in autumn.
Pushed out 250 trees last year and hope to double that this year.
The first book i devoured in years was from Akiva Silver Trees of Power a very skilled down to earth tree grower in New York state i believe. He has ayou tube channel as well. Twisted tree farms. He is totally into airpruning by the way.
His book inspired me to grow more trees and to do a nursery in the sun with trees that are used as rootstock trees. You grow them at an angle close to the ground and then the branches go up. Covering them with woodchips or sawdust will make them root. I’m waiting for the saw dust to get devoured by mycelium so can’t comment if it really works that great.
Anyway that’s all i have to say from ecperience.



This is great Hugo! I think I should stop thinking and start doing. I can even try all the mentioned methods! Could you share some "how to" from your experience with those species?

I knew about Akiva and somehow I forgot him. Thanks for remember me that he exists 😊😊
 
Hugo Morvan
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Location: France, Burgundy, parc naturel Morvan
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Some people are better thinking and then doing perfectly. I just do and make mistakes and redo. I wouldn’t get to doing things if i think them through too much. Too boring for me.
But this nursery worked out great.
The details are not difficult. I got the seeds and cuttings in over winter. Cuttings need that time without foliage and roots to settle in. Figs and berries and rosemary went in in winter. All figs died because of heavy frost here. Big error! Might work where you are but not in France. The seeds i put them in after previous years trees go to their forever spots and leave empty beds.
I seed quite closely something like 10 cm 4 inch apart. Usually in an efficient pattern like a row of 3 seeds and then a row of 4 then 3 again, then 4. Spaced out in between so each plant gets max space. Easier to saylike 2-1-2-1 and the 1 is in the middle of the 2. Hope i make this clear enough. And seeds i just put them in about as deep as they are high.
The ash i’ve just spread on the raked compost. The acacia pseudo robinia i collected from nature. One tree was packed with seeds. I took a ladder and jigsaw and cut some branches from a good looking tree. According to Permies thread i hadto dump them in almost boiling water and soak them for 24 hrs. First year for ash and acacia so no guarantee to succes at all!  
There are some great threads on Permies about growing trees from seeds. Steve Thorn is on all of them!!
 
Posts: 84
Location: North Thomas Lake, Manitoba
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Hey Hugo,
I'm using the air prune method on a small scale. I would try in-ground nursery beds like you but I worry about the effort and difficulty of transplanting without causing root damage. Can you talk a bit about that?
Thanks,
Nick
 
Hugo Morvan
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Location: France, Burgundy, parc naturel Morvan
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Hi Nick. I’ve transplanted my sweet chestnuts thisautumn/december maybe. I only had something like 7. They must have still been small because they were half a year old about. I had planted them in quite a layer of loose compost so digging in there without damaging the taproot was not that difficult. As well i have invested in a socalled drainage spade. A spade with a long thin blade of 10cm by 40cm, 4 inch by 16 inch. It’s so convenient to dig in deep it has a rounded topblade to put a lot of pressure stepping on it without getting a sore foot.
I might have damaged some side roots but i believe i have only lost one taproot. Planted the tree anyway.
This kind of spade also is really nice digging a square deep hole to get the roots in nice and deep closer to the watertable, so watering becomes less of an issue.
I’ve seen this airpruning method get popular and started a topic about it on Permies, but didn’t get answers that took away my doubts. I could totally be wrong.
This year i have seeded many more chestnuts so i’ll be able to get a better analysis on weather my transplanting method is viable.
But this drainage spade makes a huge difference planting trees and shrubs in the denser methods us permaculturists seem to prefer. I can give trees shrubs perenials and even annuals a great deep hole full of compost or mix it with local soil so they do still care to dig deeper and explore for water without damaging too much rootsystems of plants closeby.
Hope this helps you a bit Nick!
 
Antonio Hache
Posts: 187
Location: Denia, Alicante, Spain. Zone 10. 22m height
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Hugo Morvan wrote:Some people are better thinking and then doing perfectly. I just do and make mistakes and redo. I wouldn’t get to doing things if i think them through too much. Too boring for me.
But this nursery worked out great.
The details are not difficult. I got the seeds and cuttings in over winter. Cuttings need that time without foliage and roots to settle in. Figs and berries and rosemary went in in winter. All figs died because of heavy frost here. Big error! Might work where you are but not in France. The seeds i put them in after previous years trees go to their forever spots and leave empty beds.
I seed quite closely something like 10 cm 4 inch apart. Usually in an efficient pattern like a row of 3 seeds and then a row of 4 then 3 again, then 4. Spaced out in between so each plant gets max space. Easier to saylike 2-1-2-1 and the 1 is in the middle of the 2. Hope i make this clear enough. And seeds i just put them in about as deep as they are high.
The ash i’ve just spread on the raked compost. The acacia pseudo robinia i collected from nature. One tree was packed with seeds. I took a ladder and jigsaw and cut some branches from a good looking tree. According to Permies thread i hadto dump them in almost boiling water and soak them for 24 hrs. First year for ash and acacia so no guarantee to succes at all!  
There are some great threads on Permies about growing trees from seeds. Steve Thorn is on all of them!!



I ordered Akiva's book and this is a serious goal for me on next months. I want to work on the family property but I have to do it wisely. I will start with it ASAP, propagating my own trees is a must
 
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