Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
S Bengi wrote:Solar Panel = 4KW = 16x 250W (Daily Production = 4KW x 4H = 16KWH)
Charge Controller = 48V x 100A = 4.8KW
Battery Bank Storage = 48V x 400AH = 19.2KWH (some folks recommend having 3day of storage aka 48KWH)
Inverter = 4KW = 48V x 85A (you will probably need 2 of these for 240V split-phase AC)
Inverter+Charger
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1440335/wholesale-solar/power-centers/outback-radian-gs8048a-01-8-000-watt-with-fm80-power-center
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1440348/wholesale-solar/power-centers/outback-radian-gs4048a-4-000-watt-with-fm80-power-center
Solar Panel
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1930029/canadian-solar/solar-panels/canadian-solar-315-watt-module-black-mono-perc-mc4-cs3k-315ms-35mm-frame-solar-panel
Battery
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-battery-banks
Best Ready to go grid-tied kit
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1893213/wholesale-solar/complete-systems/3.84-kw-gridtied-battery-backup-solar-system-with-outback-power-center-and-12x-heliene-320-panels
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
S Bengi wrote:
If you are not going to have a battery setup, then I recommend a sunnyboy 5KW $1500 grid-tie contoller/inverter. It has 3 independent DC inputs with built in DC shutoff.
For $3700 you can get a 5KW outback one that allows you to connect a regular generator and battery bank at a later date.
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/2550550/outback-power/inverters/outback-power-skybox-sbx5048-120-240-inverter
You mention that you have a 1KW generator. Can you describe the output of that generator.
Is it AC or DC, what is the output voltage and current?
If it is AC is it pure sine wave?
Is it running 24/7 or winter only or only when the power goes out?
What type of fuel does said generator use
EDIT:
It seems like this is the generator that you are using
https://seftonmotors.com/products/the-melvin-package
It seems that your generator outputs DC
12V (or 24V with special request) and 1200W. So 12V x 100A or 24V x 50A
You can add a DC-DC step up converter.
12V to 120VDC and maybe interface that with the 3rd independent DC input on the SunnyBoy Controller/Inverter.
There's quite a price jump from inverters with battery inputs to those without them. The outback is almost 2.5 times the cost of the SunnyBoy. Is it just the battery support driving the price? Overall the Outback seems pretty neat.
Where could I hook up a 24VDC generator?
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
Brian Church wrote:Panels that also create hot water are intriguing, but I've heard horrible stories about them failing catastrophically if the pump stops working, so unless that problem has been solved, I'll probably avoid those.
Fun Permaculture card games: https://FoodForestCardGame.com
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
that is a neat assembly but the breakers could be included in the radian enclosure and a bridge rectifier would be required as well...S Bengi wrote:Seeing as how battery backup isn't really needed yet.
Four 12V battery for $100 each could easily be use for a total of $400 vs $3,000. I completely agree
For the classic are you think this $1300 setup https://mwands.com/midnite-classic-200-mppt-all-in-one-charge-controller-board-for-solar
David Baillie wrote:I looked over the heat engine specs. Am I correct that it comes with a pma head from Missouri solar? If that is the case you would have to run it into it's own charge controller. Missouri solar has an interesting one but probably not code compliant. If you want a charge controller that is code compliant the midnite solar classic is a good choice. Usually you pair it with a dump load but since you can feed the grid you dont need to as the grid is your dump load.
If your heat engine is putting out dc from that pma head you will need to use a battery based grid tie inverter like the radian listed above. You could also go for the solarc which is a newer unit and has all the function you would need and all the components are built into one unit making it more cost effective.
You are going to get a lot of diy advice on grid connecting but the regulations are quite strict so you need code compliant gear with all the utility approved disconnects and safeties. The digital utility meters can detect current flow direction and any unauthorized flow can land you in a load of trouble. Forget options like induction engines or plug in grid tie inverters those guerrilla solar days are gone. Please let me know if I'm wrong about the heat engine power head...
Cheers, david
S Bengi wrote:The manufacturer of the heat engine generator might be able to give you a 48V output. (they already offer a 12v and 24v setup).
The original manufacturer actually offers a 48V version. https://mwands.com/freedom-pmg-permanent-magnet-generator
So all you would need is:
1KW Generator (48V) https://seftonmotors.com/collections/frontpage/products/the-melvin-package
Generator Charge Controller (48V) https://mwands.com/xantrex-c40-hybrid-wind-turbine-solar-panel-charge-controller
Battery (48V) https://www.wholesalesolar.com/9580101/simpliphi/batteries/simpliphi-phi-3.8-kwh-48v-lfp-battery
Solar Grid-Tied Kit https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1823833/wholesale-solar/complete-systems/3.78-kw-storage-ready-grid-tied-solar-system-with-outback-power-and-12x-canadian-solar-315w-panels
$2,400 Generator 1KW (Combined Heat, Hot Water and Electricity device from tri-fuel incl. wood)
$140 Generator Charge Controller (48V)
$3,000 Battery (48V)
$8,200 Solar Grid-Tied Kit (can support 6KW of solar vs just 4KW)
Karl Treen wrote:
We use natural gas for on-demand heat and hot water.
Good luck with your system!
David Baillie wrote:I think the simpliphi batteries are overkill for this application just a small agm bank woud be more affordable. I don't think the C40 charge controller would not do it since the heat engine is going to fluctuate in output so an mppt option would be better. The classic is affordable if you pair it with the agms instead of the lithium I believe...
CHeerrs, David
David Baillie wrote:
that is a neat assembly but the breakers could be included in the radian enclosure and a bridge rectifier would be required as well...S Bengi wrote:Seeing as how battery backup isn't really needed yet.
Four 12V battery for $100 each could easily be use for a total of $400 vs $3,000. I completely agree
For the classic are you think this $1300 setup https://mwands.com/midnite-classic-200-mppt-all-in-one-charge-controller-board-for-solar
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
S Bengi wrote:Your 1KW DC generator/wind turbine, has a few options for a MPPT charge controller.
$520 Midnite Wind Kid https://mwands.com/midnite-kid-marine-charge-controller
$640 Midnite Classic https://mwands.com/midnite-solar-classic-mppt-charge-controller-150
$1300 Midnite Classic Code Compliant Kit https://mwands.com/midnite-solar-classic-150-mppt-all-in-one-charge-controller-board-for-solar
$1670 Midnite Classic Full Kit https://mwands.com/midnite-classic-mppt-wind-turbine-charge-controller-board
Instead of buying the kit for $1300/$1670 you could probably cobble some shutoff for cheaper, but with the unit you could install a real wind turbine in the future easily, assuming it makes sense for your location.
A few questions about your 1KW generator package.
Does it come with:
1) Firebox (what does it burn and not burn propane, natural gas, oil, bio-fuel, wood-rocket stove. BTU=50,000 aka 14.6KW, 900F)
S Bengi wrote:
2) Water Jacket/Heat Loss (upto 11KW....About 100gal of DHW... or radiator space heat/radiant floor heating... how much of can really be captured)
S Bengi wrote:
3) Turbine/Engine (1.2KW, where ΔT=600F, P=24psi, efficiency=8%)
4) Generator (1KW, efficiency=6.8%)
5) Exhaust (T=150F, 2.4KW)
S Bengi wrote:
How many hours per day will you run it aka how many KW will you produce a day/month/year.
Is the main purpose of your generator to heat a greenhouse, domestic hot water, winter space heating, or just to produce electric from your extra fuel/waste stream/biochar production.
S Bengi wrote:
Where the seller states that 1000W is possible it looks like only 300W is the norm. Do you see 300W being the norm for you or will you optimize/pressurize your setup.
In a way they basically created a heat driven(temperature deferential) wind tunnel and stick a wind turbine in it. Which is pretty cool. Is that how you view their design.
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
what solark probably meant is their charge controllers are not made for taking the input from a pma. Now we know...Brian Church wrote:I called Sol-Ark, and they also said I should use a separate charge controller.
Although I'm having trouble finding an example at the moment, I've come across inverters which have multiple DC inputs for solar. Presuming I had a 48V generator, couldn't I the 2nd input for the generator?
S Bengi wrote:Your 1KW DC generator/wind turbine, has a few options for a MPPT charge controller.
$520 Midnite Wind Kid https://mwands.com/midnite-kid-marine-charge-controller
$640 Midnite Classic https://mwands.com/midnite-solar-classic-mppt-charge-controller-150
$1300 Midnite Classic Code Compliant Kit https://mwands.com/midnite-solar-classic-150-mppt-all-in-one-charge-controller-board-for-solar
$1670 Midnite Classic Full Kit https://mwands.com/midnite-classic-mppt-wind-turbine-charge-controller-board
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
S Bengi wrote:I noticed that you mentioned that you cant find a charge controller for your generator. Check the quote below for quite a few of them.
And yes you will need two SEPARATE charge controller the solar panels will plug into the Sol-ark and the generator into the Midnite.
S Bengi wrote:Your 1KW DC generator/wind turbine, has a few options for a MPPT charge controller.
$520 Midnite Wind Kid https://mwands.com/midnite-kid-marine-charge-controller
$640 Midnite Classic https://mwands.com/midnite-solar-classic-mppt-charge-controller-150
$1300 Midnite Classic Code Compliant Kit https://mwands.com/midnite-solar-classic-150-mppt-all-in-one-charge-controller-board-for-solar
$1670 Midnite Classic Full Kit https://mwands.com/midnite-classic-mppt-wind-turbine-charge-controller-board
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
S Bengi wrote:The solar edge inverter will not work for this use case.
It will not talk to a 48v or 24v or 12v battery bank. They are 100% grid tied a few support 450v LG Chem batteries.
So you will have to stick with the existing line up of 2 charge controllers
For PV panels it is Sol-Ark
For the generator Midnite Classic
Brian Church wrote:
some inverters from Schneider or the Outback Radian series or potentially the Outback Skybox.
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
S Bengi wrote:
I want to know what type of load the sol-ark 8kw was having problems with that a outback skybox or outback radian with 8kw of power would do better with.
David Baillie wrote:In terms of pricing dont forget to add in the legally required breakers and disconnects you have to add on with the radian and Schneider built into the sol ark. Then add on the solar charge controller you have to add and the inverter controller all those items are seperate add ons from radian and schneider... the skybox is a different kind of unit also high frequency like the solark so if the 8k had problems starting loads the skybox would as well...
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
S Bengi wrote:You just need a battery/battery bank that can handle the max 1000W charge rate.
48V x 20Ah = 1000Wh (50x20)
Battery banks like a 25% charge rate aka 4x. So you need 4x1000W = 4000W
48V x 20Ah x 4 = 48V x 80Ah = 4000Wh
So a battery bank with 80AH is what you are looking for. But just 1000Wh will work esp given that the battery is not actually being charged or discharge, its just acting as a middle man.
Now if the grid goes down and your generator is still going and your battery is full, you will have to do something with that power aka a dump load.
Also if the grid goes down you will have very little power in your house if any, due to not having a sizable battery bank.
So how much power will you have, generator + battery aka P=G+B
P=1000W + (Battery x Discharge Rate)
P=1000W + (1000W x 5hr discharge rate)
P=1000W + (1000W x 0.2)
P=1000W + 200W (but technically you could pull it all out, in 1hr vs 5hrs)
With these numbers best case you can get 2kW but more like 0.6kW, now with a huge battery bank you could more.
Li-polymer battery with 12C x 48V x 20Ah = 12C x 1000w = discharge of 12,000W
LiFePO4 with 1C x 48V x 240Ah = 1C x 12,000Wh = 12,000W
Lead Acid = 0.2C x 48 x 1200Ah = 0.2C x 60,000Wh = 12,000W
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
S Bengi wrote:It's $600 for 12v so you will need 4X for 48v. S0 $2,400.
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
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Heat your home with the twigs that naturally fall of the trees in your yard
http://woodheat.net
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