Win a copy of Landrace Gardening this week in the Seeds and Breeding forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Nicole Alderman
  • Pearl Sutton
  • r ranson
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Mike Haasl
  • Burra Maluca
master gardeners:
  • Greg Martin
  • jordan barton
  • Carla Burke
  • Leigh Tate
gardeners:
  • Jay Angler
  • John F Dean
  • Steve Thorn

If I wanted to weave a tartan?

 
master steward & author
Posts: 23103
Location: Left Coast Canada
6788
3
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A friend requested some towels in a specific military tartan.  

Tartans are very complicated and time-consuming to weave, but they look amazing.  So I was thinking of a tartan inspired cloth with hints of tartan and the full colours, but maybe something simpler to weave.

But Tartans are also one of the few protected cloth patterns in the world.  Most patterns have been around for ages, so it's fine to weave whatever.  But Tartans have a very specific history and are a means of identifying an individual belongs to a specific clan, family, history, or background.  Military Tartans are especially protected.

So... is anyone here Scottish?  Do you know how one goes about gaining permission to use a tartan?  

The person has a background that gives them the right to USE the tartan, but I don't have a background that automatically gives me the right to weave it.  

And then there's the process of modifying it enough to be easy to weave.  That's going to be interesting.  
 
pollinator
Posts: 3771
Location: Toronto, Ontario
535
hugelkultur dog forest garden fungi trees rabbit urban wofati cooking bee homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I don't know about the whole kettle of fish, but I know that the "little kilt," the more tailored garment, rather than the blanket-looking garb with the wrap over the shoulder, was a Victorian construct, as were the Tartans and their specific clan affiliations, or at least that's what I have been told by at least two different scholars on the matter. I have read similar things elsewhere. I wouldn't want to insult anyone by accident, but I find the idea that Scots would adhere so readily to an English invention a little wierd, considering the history there.

I don't know if remnants of pre-Victorian patterns were adapted, and I don't know if any of those were actually attributed to the correct clan, but I suppose that's a possibility.

And in any case, you'd be weaving an adaptation, not the actual article, and could stress that it is tartan-inspired, but not actually tartan.

I wouldn't worry about it so much that it stops you from doing your thing, which is amazing, by the way. And if you're using dyes not typically found in that part of the world, you can take it in whatever direction you desire, and so further distance yourself from specific qualms.

How about a neon pink, green, and orange tartan(-inspired garment)?

-CK
 
r ranson
master steward & author
Posts: 23103
Location: Left Coast Canada
6788
3
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I know Tartans and plaid were common throughout the British Isles to some extent in pre-industrial times.  Part of that was dealing with small dye batches made from local plants.  We have a great thread on that https://permies.com/t/41235/art/plaid-originally-colour-map-place

Scottish history and culture had a kind of renaissance just at the start of the Industrial Revolution (circa 1700s), which grew especially with the writings of people like Sir Walter Scott later on.  The Tartan very quickly became a source of national pride - and rightly so, they are gorgeous!  

There are very few protected textile designs.  Some persin rugs and tartans.  Cloths like Harris Tweed, we can weave at home, so long as we don't call it Harris Tweed.  But Tartans are obviously tartans no matter what we call it.  

Legally weaving a tartan for home use is a grey area.  But it's more about respect for people.  People of Scottish Decent here have really strong opinions on the use of tartans.  The friend wants a specific military tartan which may also be protected since the use of active military uniforms is often restricted.  So it's good to be respectful and ask permission.  


 
pollinator
Posts: 279
100
hugelkultur dog fungi trees books cooking food preservation bee medical herbs rocket stoves wood heat
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Black Watch just does it for me, always has. It is like the James Taylor song lyrics "deep greens and blues are the colors I choose . . .. ".  Plants and Sky and Water - my friends.

I appreciate how considerate and respectful you are for the lineage, the tradition.

As soon as I win Powerball I plan on placing a big order with you, and while I would love them, no requests for tartans.
Black_Watch-2.png
[Thumbnail for Black_Watch-2.png]
Black Watch
 
r ranson
master steward & author
Posts: 23103
Location: Left Coast Canada
6788
3
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I found a pattern for the tartan design I want to use.  But it comes with this disclaimer:

** If you intend to weave or otherwise use any of these patterns, please be aware that you may need the written permission of the designer or producer. This information can be found in the Scottish Register of Tartans.



Now I need to find out what the Scottish Register of Tartans is.
 
gardener
Posts: 2069
Location: South of Capricorn
840
dog rabbit urban cooking writing homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/search

seems easy enough. it also seems like unless you're using it to make money, since you are making it for a person who "has a claim" to it through background, it shouldn't be a problem making it for that person, but worth checking. the whole history behind registering the tartans I think is pretty cool (seems like the effort is more on registration than enforcement, and it's all based on just general respect. A cool concept.).
 
r ranson
master steward & author
Posts: 23103
Location: Left Coast Canada
6788
3
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I found the tartan there but I cannot see how to ask permission.

So I sent an email to a kiltmaker I know who will know all this stuff.  

This sure is getting complicated.  
 
r ranson
master steward & author
Posts: 23103
Location: Left Coast Canada
6788
3
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I heard back from the kiltmaker.  He's awesome at this stuff!

Basically the military tartan I'm looking at (RCAF) was not used in any official uniform so it's not restricted that way.

So long as I keep the thread count (the exact number of each colour thread in the right order) precise, it would be fine for me to weave the tartan and it shows my desire to honour the person's service to the country to make this for him.  But it is very important to follow the pattern exactly to prevent accidentally weaving a different tartan.  

So... the next stage: get out my pencil crayons and design some towels.  I don't want to do the entire set of towels in tartan as that would be a tremendous amount of work.  So I need to find a way to incorporate the tartan into the overall design of the cloth.

Here's where we're starting.

 
Tereza Okava
gardener
Posts: 2069
Location: South of Capricorn
840
dog rabbit urban cooking writing homestead ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yay, a great outcome.
What a gorgeous pattern. I am a big sucker for things with stories/histories so I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with this.
 
pollinator
Posts: 649
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
213
3
urban books building solar rocket stoves ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

r ranson wrote:I heard back from the kiltmaker.  He's awesome at this stuff!

Basically the military tartan I'm looking at (RCAF) was not used in any official uniform so it's not restricted that way.

So long as I keep the thread count (the exact number of each colour thread in the right order) precise, it would be fine for me to weave the tartan and it shows my desire to honour the person's service to the country to make this for him.  But it is very important to follow the pattern exactly to prevent accidentally weaving a different tartan.  

So... the next stage: get out my pencil crayons and design some towels.  I don't want to do the entire set of towels in tartan as that would be a tremendous amount of work.  So I need to find a way to incorporate the tartan into the overall design of the cloth.



Your own words here, about getting the thread count exactly correct to avoid accidentally weaving a different tartan, could also be interpreted as: getting the thread count ever so slightly wrong, as to intentionally weave a different (not protected) tartan, no?
To the untrained, or non-obsessive-compulsive, it would appear the same...
Just yesterday, I read in the  comments about a video on music copyright enforcement versus fair use, that some publishers of sheet music that is in the public domain, would include an intentional mistake (like just one note...). This mistake, if copied by someone, would infringe a copyright on the publication of the sheet music...
Also, interesting "tie-in" to Persian rugs, which include an intentional "error" in the pattern to symbolize "that only God is perfect".
 
master gardener
Posts: 2787
1090
personal care gear foraging hunting rabbit chicken cooking food preservation fiber arts medical herbs homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I could claim the rights of wearing to several tartans, including my mil's. Some folks are much more protective of their tartan, than others, but I'm honestly not sure how to go about finding the correct authority on the specific one, in question. I'll check with one of the heritage geneologists in the Scottish heritage group I belong to, and see what I can turn up.
gift
 
Living Woods Magazine -- 1st Issue
will be released to subscribers in: soon!
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic