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Abe Connally wrote:I was interested in seasteading for a long time, but besides the cost, I enjoy being on land. There is definitely something to being able to hike whenever you want.
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Erica Wisner wrote:Abe, sounds like you were interested in the theory, but not the lifestyle?
(You don't have to keep discussing the topic if it's not your thing; check your profile settings if you want to stop getting messages about it.)
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Erica Wisner wrote:Abe, sounds like you were interested in the theory, but not the lifestyle?
(You don't have to keep discussing the topic if it's not your thing; check your profile settings if you want to stop getting messages about it.)
Logan, sounds like this is a dream you are interested in, but not currently doing yet?
Have you already practiced some related hobbies ... like sailing, fishing, or building a floating home?
Some seasteading questions on my mind:
I'm curious to learn more about foods and plants that can be grown at sea. There's a strong maritime hunter-gatherer tradition, one of the last places where nomadic lifestyles are currently practiced, though that is slowly changing in modern times. I confess I don't really want to see the ocean partitioned into farms, or cultivated into more habitat to fill up with people. Part of the appeal is its wildness. I'm much more interested in wildcrafting than farming,
and learning enough about the ecosystem to practice regenerative harvesting. Ocean living can be migratory, something that makes wildcrafting a more viable life path in this age of fenced property lines and protected parks.
Ernie knows all about edible sea vegetables and marine life, and is very interested in ocean ecology stewardship. We both like eating fish, shellfish, seaweed, and sushi treats. I recently discovered that barnacles (only legal to take as by-catch here) taste awesome.
Livestock at sea usually means fish; there are a lot more trophic levels at sea than on land, including some very clever predators that are also very tasty. Our boat's design would allow some saltwater hydroponics or aquaculture if we wanted to, from a swim dock, but ports get really nervous about invasive species. Even pets are often quarantined. So one might have to decide between limiting one's travels, or limiting one's choice of pets and garden. A stationary boat or deep-water seastead could grow quite a lot, and a smaller vessel be used to transport the produce to market.
For onboard gardening, I'm looking into bonsai techniques. I'd like to grow a bonsai kumquat or blueberries on board, and maybe also some salad-garden or herbs. I don't know if I'd go hydroponic, maintain a worm-bin composter, or just get some garden soil from land. It's not necessary to fully recycle wastes onboard; the ocean is the mother of the global life cycle, and macerated wastes can contribute nicely to feeding the oxygen-making algae at sea. Some regenerative waste-cycling capacity for near-shore and port living could be nice, but there are standard options for handling that too.
I've seen lush plants growing on old docks, and lots of houseboats have great container-gardens or raised beds. There's also the Mexico-city style chinampas, but inland waterways tend to be protected as public right-of-way rather than available for private cultivation.
Ernie says that tomatoes get seasick.
Anybody know if there is any good listing of plants that don't get seasick? Even good houseplants for boats would be nice.
In absence of informed reports, I guess bryophytes (treetop plants) are a good bet to tolerate more movement than others. And coastal plants to tolerate salt. And tropical plants to tolerate indoor air temperatures and humidity. I guess spider-plants will grow anywhere, but I'd rather grow edible houseplants if possible. For a traveling boat that does go into ports, I don't think we could cultivate much ocean produce, unless we had a closed tank behind a bulkhead that we could shunt off the water to interior-only circulation (to maintain quarantine, but not kill the garden) while we were in port.
Wave depth varies, so it can be a rough ride anywhere near the surface. And once you get into compressive depths, it's a long way down. I'd prefer to be reliably afloat than partially submerged.
Managing neutral buoyancy is tricky, as flotation tend to shrink (and sink faster) with depth. I can see that as a fantasy lifestyle, it could be compelling enough for some to be worth solving these problems. But submarines are not a fantasy for either me or Ernie. But Ernie does have a masterful weather sense, and plenty of experience guiding boats through rough weather too. I suspect I will be learning both, and won't catch up in this lifetime.
Seasteading is sometimes defined as a marine farming lifestyle, but we're not really farmers by nature. We've talked about various livelihoods:
- continue our present freelance work with workshops and publications, from a home base that can travel by wind power instead of fossil fuels. This would take subscribing to reliable satellite communications, and we might establish a yearly migration route with seasonal clients and friends.
Some of the marine architect's and boatbuilders' skills turn out to apply very nicely to cob building too: scribing cabinetry into curves, for instance, or understanding flows and gradients as well as walls and floors.
- a floating hospitality center for maritime education programs, research, and maybe a little pizza-cafe in season to feed the hungry Alaska fishermen,
- skimming the Pacific Gyre for floating plastic, and coming up with catchy ways to transform that toxic waste into a resource (fuel or trinkets, most likely)
- serving as a small-cargo ambassador between coastal communities; cargoes like wine, beer, cheese, and produce transport much better without road vibrations, and if we get into a regular route, we could serve the same clients yearly and take the occasional paying passenger to help pay for fuel and maintenance.
My biggest learning curve right now is getting prepared to practice skills like navigation, ocean safety, sailing, marine regulations, etc. Learning to swim is great; even better to know how to turn the boat around if the skipper is the one swimming.
My relaxed fantasy is a quiet beach or river, where I can walk to shore from here. Ernie's is deep water with nothing to run into, and nobody to hassle us. We'll probably spend time in both, but I can see that I'm likely to become responsible for the paperwork of ports and registrations, if I want to spend more time there.
Being at sea is exercise in itself; the boat is always moving, and you are constantly flexing small muscles that keep joints limber and core strength fit. There is plenty of work if you like to stay busy, and plenty of time to relax if you are caught up on the basic maintenance.
As far as taking a hike - it's the 'I gotta get out of this house / away from these people' aspect of taking a hike that can be hard to duplicate at sea.
You have to be able to get along with your crewmates for extended time. You learn to give each other privacy by mutual consent, such as coming to the common room when you want to hang out, and not interrupting someone if they have gone to their cabin to be alone. You learn to stick to polite manners, yet tolerate a much wider range of cultures and personalities.
The nature-access part of sailing is pretty unbeatable; with the right boat you can go gunk-holing and see all kinds of rare wildlife and intact ecologies that aren't accessible any other way. Which is why they're more intact. Not to mention the constantly changing landscape of the water and sky themselves. You become very observant of weather, wind, wildlife; and there's both time and incentive to study all manner of things, crafts, global politics, how things work, how to fix things, where things grow.
I'm hoping that we get another sailor or two on this thread who is thinking about / doing seasteading. But I guess that they are more likely to be hanging out on the boat forums. There don't seem to be a whole lot of boat-people-permies, although there do seem to be a lot of ex-fishermen and ex-hippies homesteading here in the Okanogan.
- Erica W
Abe Connally wrote:yeah, I agree that the idea has potential, once you get a vessel worked out, legalities, etc, but for me, I bought 10 acres for $1,000, invested about $10,000 in a house, power system, etc, and we're living great.
I imagine that the starting price for even an acre-sized seastead is in the millions of $$$.
you're also limited on livestock, speed of movement, and all sorts of other details.
Abe Connally wrote:
Erica Wisner wrote:Abe, sounds like you were interested in the theory, but not the lifestyle?
(You don't have to keep discussing the topic if it's not your thing; check your profile settings if you want to stop getting messages about it.)
yeah, exactly. I am interested in the technology and skills necessary in seasteading, but I find it too impractical for most people (including myself).
Erica Wisner wrote:a small book.
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Abe Connally wrote:
Erica Wisner wrote:Abe, sounds like you were interested in the theory, but not the lifestyle?
(You don't have to keep discussing the topic if it's not your thing; check your profile settings if you want to stop getting messages about it.)
yeah, exactly. I am interested in the technology and skills necessary in seasteading, but I find it too impractical for most people (including myself).
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John Polk wrote:
I've been known to trade a live lobster for a can of Spam, or corned beef.
Dale Hodgins wrote:
Erica Wisner wrote:a small book.
There are two things that are easy to grow on a boat. Both mildew and barnacles are quite productive and require little care. Crunchy chowder soup? The submarine talk reminded me of an under water experiment conducted by Jacque Cousteau where his son Falco and some others lived in an under water habitat for weeks. Falco made some tea and scalded his mouth since the increased pressure raised the boiling point to over 300 degrees F. He had to endure a long decompression cycle before he could seek medical attention for his cracked teeth.
On the lighter side -------- Humans are a land species.
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John Polk wrote:When you live on the sea, you learn to fix things. It's either that, or do without.
Dale Hodgins wrote:
John Polk wrote:
I've been known to trade a live lobster for a can of Spam, or corned beef.
I lived in Newfoundland for a year. It was said that the more prosperous fishermen could afford balogney .
Erica mentioned youth skills development on the water. I hired a 17 yr. old native kid from Uculett who had fished with his dad all his life. He was more competent and confident than most guys his age. A few times I left him in charge of guys twice his age.
Whenever something went wrong with my truck or with any of the tools he was able to fix it. Whenever I needed help dismantling mechanical systems I chose him. He got paid more than most of my helpers and did interesting stuff while the others operated garbage cans for hours on end.
He's 30 now and has build his own home and some boats. Early skills development is very important.
18 years ago I bought a small tug for salvaging beachcomb logs. It came complete with Donny a 14 yr. old who had helped the old guy who sold me the boat. Donny had documentation to prove that the school system was done with him and his mom confirmed that he was available to work. He kept my boat and others at the marinara in working order. He is now a heavy equipment mechanic.
Dale Hodgins wrote:In the late seventies there were quite a few books that extolled the merits of ferro cement. ...
... I've been called out to estimate the cost of demolishing several cement boats. One had a huge gash in it. The book said that this boat would simply plow through small reefs. Rusting of the imbedded wire was the reason the others were decommisioned. The only floaters that I've seen were used as floats in log booming grounds.
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Kari Gunnlaugsson wrote: Well, I spent a good eight years living aboard, I started out tied to a dock but built up skills and was soon living entirely at anchor and sailing engineless. I think I'll probably go back to it someday, I loved it.
Seasteading is a viable and beautiful way to live. Think hunter / gatherer plus some trade and transport. You are not going to grow much and you will need to be able to barter with landfolk for many of your needs.
I can't imagine having space or water to grow much more than sprouts on board, but they are nice to have offshore. A good sailboat is the ultimate platform for it...cheap, safe, easily repaired, low energy global mobility. I wouldn't want to be stuck on a barge or raft, etc...
Ferrocement got a bad rap because a lot of DIY people in the seventies tried it without knowing what they were doing. Bad ferro boats are a disaster. Good ones are great and can survive tremendous impacts. Be very cautious, do your homework, and know that the resale value is going to be terrible.
Regarding boat design... The ocean is absolutely unforgiving and a killer. Sailboat design has been refined in this context for thousands of years, by people who spent lifetimes at sea where their lives depended on it, and many examples are Very Good. Before you get carried away with a radical new boat idea, you need to get a lot of sea time and experience...study the history and understand what works and why...once you've got a mastery of the rules then think about breaking them. Old school sailors were a conservative bunch, but it kept them alive.
Some modern era boat design was regressive...it sought to exploit loopholes in racing regulations rather than pay attention to the requirements of the sea.
Look for designs from the last days of working sail, or for modern work that pays homage to that tradition.
If you are patient there are Lots of excellent second hand boats that can be made super seaworthy on a tight budget...it will get you closer to your dream years faster than trying to save up and build something, and you will have a lower impact on the planet.
Modern 'yachts' are terrible for relying on gimmicky technology. Terrible for seasteading. It will break. You won't be able to fix it. Seek absolute simplicity in your systems and be able to fix or even make everything you have on board...if you want to maintain your independence and be free to travel to the far places. Personal choice, but I would get rid of the engine as soon as you have the skills to. Low tech / low tension rigs lose some windward performance but pay back in economy and simplicity...think gaff or junk, etc..
A few thoughts to mull regarding the phi boat concept, (from my narrow minded point of view ... A hull form that gives perfect stability on flat water is a very bad idea offshore, because the water isn't flat (when your hull stays flat with the water's surface and that surface is a steep twenty foot wall of water it's not so good).
Some of the main motivations
Hull speed is actually important in a few ways... first it allows you to make a passage between landfalls in a reasonable time so you don't need to carry tons of supplies...
The underwater ports are a great idea and add a lot of joy to a boat if you make them super strong and safe, but I wouldn't move the controls down there for biomimicry purposes...you are relying on compicated sensors and control systems that you won't be able to fix at sea and that will break and use energy, a sailboat cockpit is biomicry..you percieve everything clearly, you are the boat's eyes and ears and brain and you feel the wind and motion and the sailboat becomes alive and part of you....when you're perceptions are mediated by technology you lose your connection to the Ocean, which is essential..
So that's my two bits....you have a great idea, good luck, Do It!
(ps i think you might have read 'sailing the farm'...not all of ken's ideas worked out so well in practice..)
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Ernie Wisner wrote:Mate i would say this I have read the seasteding stuff and its good conceptually but most of it has not been put into practice. I am a sailor as was my father, grand father, great grand father on back as far as anyone can find. One thing you dont do when thinking of the sea is rely on untested tech.
Ask my grand father that decided to try out the new Gas engine and died in front of his wife and kids when his boat blew up.
untested things can kill you at sea as surly as a bullet to the brain. DIY is great but you have to have old sailors look it over cause many have seen lots of DIY that didnt work. old sailors that actually work on the sea every day are very conservative and tend to mull things over for a long time trying to find the flaws. most are way smarter than folks give them credit for so dont be put off by simple language.
A boat design you might consider for sea steading is the scow it has a long history of use in shipping and survivability takes almost any traditional rig well and is easy to build.
I would stay away from polyester fiberglass it absorbs water. However if you do an analysis of environmental costs you will find epoxy and plywood construction is not only relatively sustainable but easy to repair. epoxy does not absorb water and wont cause the wood to rot due to moisture transport through the coating.
if you want some designs i have them. Also Junks are good mono hulls and i have a collection of this plans as well.
I would say you might want to get someone with boat building experience to build the boats you want to use because there is in any design places where experience will work better than experiments.
Dale Hodgins wrote:Malcolm's wife died when their propane powered boat exploded. I believe he was on deck at the time. He was strictly sail and diesel after that.
My uncle died in Lake Huron when he was 24. Inexperience mixed with alcohol.
My great grandfather couldn't swim when he was thrown overboard in heavy seas off Newfoundland. A Labrador Retriever hauled him back to the boat by his oilskins
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Ernie Wisner wrote: I am not talking out of my ass
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The underwater ports are a great idea and add a lot of joy to a boat if you make them super strong and safe, but I wouldn't move the controls down there for biomimicry purposes...you are relying on compicated sensors and control systems that you won't be able to fix at sea and that will break and use energy, a sailboat cockpit is biomicry..you percieve everything clearly, you are the boat's eyes and ears and brain and you feel the wind and motion and the sailboat becomes alive and part of you....when you're perceptions are mediated by technology you lose your connection to the Ocean, which is essential..
okay I see that, though I also like to see what's in front of and under my boat.
The ports themselves are relatively low-tech.
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Dale Hodgins wrote:It's a sewer pipe on a beach. >
got me!
@ Erica..once you bolt the ballast keel on, nothing is intrinsically floaty anymore, so maybe you're a multihull sailor...
these guys are a bit nuts but they know how to keep it simple:
proa crossing, barehanded..
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