greg mosser wrote:just to devil’s advocate a little, goats delight in eating kudzu, and a good flour/starch can be isolated from the tubers. it’s definitely not something to just plant everywhere, but it’s not the unapproachable and useless plant it’s frequently given credit for being. and if we had a culture of relating to it as a good resource to manage and not just ‘the enemy’, i think the general consensus on it would change somewhat.

Thanks, Greg. We don't have this in Central Wisconsin, so I was going by what I always heard about this plant. Totally agree with you that invasives can be resources too, if we care to manage them.
Thanks for the correction. That is great! So goats like it. Perhaps local governments could pay goat farmers to have their goats munch on it?
I heard it is a vine. Does it only want to climb and smother stuff? or does it replant itself, like, say a pumpkin or squash vine?
And it is a tuber? another thing I didn't know.
When you say "good" flour, what do you mean? Can you make bread from it? Would pigs be interested? Kudzu fried chips, anyone? Does it have gluten or could it make only unleavened bread? perhaps pancakes? Please tell us more: "Inquiring minds want to know!"
See: Like I was saying, it is all in the way we approach the problem.

In dealing with "invasives" , we should remember that all these plants have their place in the broad spectrum of what can be grown. We usually want to combat these invasions because they endanger *another* plant that *is* native, or that we just prefer. That is when there is a conflict.
Honeybees are an invasive species, so is clover but we would not want to eradicate them.
Another point is that the flora and fauna of the entire planet keeps changing/ evolving whether we want to or not.
Sometimes, we should fight to preserve a species, but if the climate or the soil becomes inhospitable to that species, it is a fight we are going to lose. [Mother Nature always wins: Agree with her now, it will save us so much time!] We need to be conscious of these changes and keep working *with* Nature rather than *against* it.
As my zone 4b warms up, it is possible that my delicious rhubarb will no longer grow well here. I hope to die before that happens, but that ball is in motion. Perhaps I will be able to grow Mount Rainier sweet cherries instead of the tiny wild ones we have here, that have big stones and hardly any flesh around them. I don't like them but I can make Kirsch out of them. Yum.
At that point, we should remember that if we look at it right, every problem is a solution in waiting.
Say that you have an animal like rabbits in Australia that multiply very quickly and causes a lot of damage. Could they be harvested for dog food or carnivores in zoos? Could their fur be useful?
Algae bloom on lakes: It can be dragged, composted and reapplied on crops after suitable time has passed to create rich biomass. On very sandy potato fields, it may become an asset, who knows?
Here, we have black locust: the seeds of this leguminous tree are impossible to harvest. These trees make networks of roots that can overtake an entire yard. Not 20 miles from here, my county is seeking to eradicate them, but across the street which is a different county, it is not against the law to grow them [just not recommended]. Some years, the honeybees visit them, and they give us a honey that is IMHO much better than clover honey: very clear, doesn't ever crystallize. It is fragrant and delicious.  
Down South, they have Kudzu, which, from what I was told, is impossible to get rid of: Even animals won't eat it or bed on it. It seems to have no use but to annoy the unfortunate folks who live near. Kudzu would be a great example of why we should fight to prevent invasives from taking over.

Personally, I find cloaks very stylish. Capes are nice too. Working in the garden, though they flop around your arms and restrict your movements. One place to never wear them is around machinery.
In a downpour, going to lock up the chickens at night, they'd be really handy.
One of my favorite details is when they have a loop in the back of the neck so you can hang them up: [Unless tailored specially, they do not fit well on a hanger].

Ela La Salle wrote:Cécile Stelzer Johnson,
Thank you kindly. I appreciate your explanation.
I'm European. The confusing part I find, is that Latin names on seed packets themselves, are different, of the same bean. Some don't have any.  
The ones I remember from childhood, were big, meaty, picked green from green pods, but BIG! .Eaten after being cooked, and darn delicious

I'm European too [French] but I live in Wisconsin and I'm observing the same thing: A number of seed packets do not have the Latin name. I try to not buy them and let the seed people know that in the name of truth in labeling, there ought to be one so folks really KNOW what they are buying.
Along with genetic manipulation, there is a blurring of the lines. With the kinds of prices we are seeing and the smaller packets, no wonder folks will be better off creating their own landraces. When you grow and develop your own, you know what you have. I've taken to being serious about saving seeds systematically.

I edited my post but I'm doing it under protest: The reference to marijuana was not political: It was to illustrate that a Latin name can refer to 2 completely different plants. Where are we going in the censorship if a word cannot even be mentioned under any circumstances, and is that not a political stance too? : We may be inviting precisely the type of fascism we seek to avoid.
I understand where you are coming from in maintaining this very excellent forum and I never meant to give you more work. I was not pushing for any political opinion, like it should be legalized or forbidden under any circumstances.

Ela La Salle wrote:I'm not much of a help in this department but have a question of my own, if anyone has experienced post-digestive issues after consuming Fava beans?
I am trying to grow some for the very first time this year. The seeds are in the ground. I'm awaiting seedlings.
I used to eat them eons ago as a kid, but haven't had any  since.
It's hard to get the true Fava beans as they're  classified as  broad beans. Even Googling "it", the information is  confusing. I beg to differ but  what do I know? I'm just starting the "bean romance" LOL
Thanks to anyone who can share some thoughts.

Because I come from France and my sister and I often can't find the proper translation for some plants, we use the Latin name. That is a great authority I encourage all of you to look at when confused. so, anyway:
The Wiki says they are both Vicia faba. The best distinction comes from this British site:
"Fava beans are the same species as the fresh or frozen green broad beans more familiar in British cooking but fava beans are the fully mature dried fruit of smaller seeded varieties. Varieties of Vicia faba grown to be eaten as fresh broad beans tend to have larger, flatter, broader (hence the name) seeds".
https://hodmedods.co.uk/blogs/news/what-are-fava-beans-are-they-just-broad-beans#:~:text=They're%20the%20same%20species,(hence%20the%20name)%20seeds
So the Fava beans are smaller seeded and eaten as dry beans.
The broad bean makes larger seeds and can be eaten fresh.
So sometimes the Latin name gives you the right information but leaves out important details.
Take beets and mangels: they are both beta vulgaris but are very different in their sugar content and uses.
A plant can be grown for different characteristics that are then cultivated for 2 different purposes, and through careful selection, 2 plants come to be used that are very different, yet have the same Latin name.

I seem to be blessed with a digestive track that can take anything in stride, but that was not the case for my mom. With her, there was also a bit of discomfort, but she found a trick that she swore by: First, soak them OVERNIGHT.  For the soaking, she didn't add salt or anything, just a little baking soda [but that seems to make them 'mushy' faster, I think]. It may also remove some vitamins. At least that is the case with asparagus and green beans mom said.
She did put them in *warm* water. The next day, she would drain the beans, put them in fresh cold water, bring the water to a boil and also discard *that* water. Drain and rinse, then cook as usual. Season just before bringing to the table.
If you use as bit of baking soda and then decide you want to can them, make sure you really rinse them well: the baking soda messes with the PH of the beans and they might spoil! If in doubt, add a little vinegar to bring the PH balance toward the acidic.
If you think that is a lot of messing around, it seems so to me too, and to her also. So in the fall, she would make great big batches of beans and can them all. This way, we had non speaking, just delicious with bacon, beans year long. The energy to can 12 pints of beans and then warm them up one at a time probably compares favorably with cooking one meal of beans every time, but I'm nil at math. If you like your beans seasoned, canning them with seasoning enhances the flavor of the seasoning. If you can them with bacon, treat them like you are canning meat, which requires higher pressure in your pressure canner.
I do love the convenience of just grabbing one pint of cooked beans whenever I want one too.  Having them canned means that I can use them cold in salads, which I love when it's hot outside but I need the energy.

Emilie McVey wrote:I notice that "white dutch clover" is what is specified.  Would another clover (red clover, e.g.) work as well, or is there something important about white clover that makes it work better?

It may make a difference for your honey bees: they have a definite preference for the Dutch white. The red clover looks fine and is just as soft underfoot but some years, the bees barely touch it. I'm not sure why.
Honeybees are often reluctant to work red clover but the numbers of them that visit a crop can be increased if their colonies are not taken to the crop until flowering has begun (Free, Free & Jay 1960), or by rotating them between different crops (Karmo 1961). https://www.jstor.org/stable/2401480
Too bad because you will get more hay off of red clover.

John C Daley wrote:Be careful of currency conversions.
I helped somebody in Texas recently. I ordered all the items in Austin for them having discussed what was available, the tanks were certainly closer to $US2900.

I was only going for a ballpark figure as I had no freaking idea how an Australian dollar compares: We know that the value of currency changes day to day. Also, the folks that change your money can sometime take a bigger 'pinch' in passing for the conversion service.
When I lived in Paris, I shopped for the best conversion shop and that didn't always work: Some took more than others. In converting your money, they are rendering a service, and that is paid for on top of the official conversion, so yeah, there is that. Plus, in the end, what I end up getting is dependent on what is available locally or my ability to get it delivered at a reasonable price, so...
I do love your system: with a transfer pump, water is always available, and with my groundwater slooowly fouling up, I want to make sure I never have a problem, so thanks again for the explanations on how you make it work.

John C Daley wrote:The secret in Australia is the 20,000L tank.
It holds the water for a long time and allows settlement of any fine particles also.
Tank - $A2900 use 2 inch ball valves
In line leaf traps  adjacent to guttering each $A50
First flush filter - just after leaf trap $A50 each
fine screen on tank $A30
Good pump $A200-800
Thats about all the special gear, its much better value than any well if you have the rain.
I live in Bendigo, Victoria, Australia average rainfall 450mm,
I store 60,000L around the house filled from house and outbuildings and another 120,000L off a huge shed.
You just need to match the area of any rooves with the volume of water you need.
Sometimes people around here buy a tanker load if its dry, I choose to have more tanks.
In some agricultural areas you need to be aware of crop dusting etc and chemical sprays which maybe used.

Thank you so much for the precision, John. With just over 17" of precipitation a year, I can see why you would try hard to keep rainwater. In Central WI, I get 36-60" a year, depending. In this situation, I would build rooves over most of my property too!  Whatever you need to spend to have drinkable water is well worth it!
[and yes, you are correct; except for polluting spaying, rain water is a lot better than what you can get from the ground].
so the numbers are, at today's rate:
$A2900 = $2011.02
$A50= $34.67
$A30= $20.8
and for the pump: $A200-800 comes to about $138-$554.76
Thanks again for the very instructive post.

John C Daley wrote:Here is an interesting webpage
http://geopathfinder.com/Rainwater-Harvesting.html
From which I copied this note
"As a township officer in Minnesota, Larisa attended a County Township Officer's meeting where a rainwater researcher gave a presentation. She obtained rain sampling data from the State of Minnesota that proved two things we had always suspected:
Rainwater is far "softer" (fewer dissolved solids) than groundwater
It is cleaner (fewer chemicals) than surface or groundwater aquifers by a factor of 10 to 1000
Rainwater is even more clean when collected in very early spring and late fall"

Well done, John! We've always known that rainwater was better than groundwater most of the time. Certainly better for the plants, but also for any creature drinking it, be it veggies, critters or humans.
Your system takes care of debris in an ingenious way. Here, we have a number of private wells that are polluted by agricultural runoffs of large operations.  As the groundwater officer for my town, I'd love to get more information on this as some folks have wells that cannot  be corrected even with an osmosis system. Digging another well on the same parcel is awfully expensive and there is no certainly that they would not tap in the same vitiated water. I also love that folks using rainwater have no need whatsoever for expensive "softeners" that add an enormous amount of salt to groundwater! Would you have a rough idea of how much money you spent on this great system?
I like also that it is scalable. Most folks have no idea of how much rainwater they could harvest from a simple roof, if they put their mind to it. I have several rain barrels but before your post, I wasn't thinking about drinking the stuff [I didn't install a debris eliminating system: my water is at 1.9 for nitrates and it is abundant, so there is no need for me to sink [expensive?] tanks in the ground, but some folks could use the information].
It just collects in the barrel and I use it for veggies, chickens, and soon ducks. Wonderful post!

Anthony Powell wrote:I've grown Apios americana up sunchokes. Both need serious digging out with a risk of regeneration! I also did the same mix in a planter in a large saucer of water (upturned bin lid) to keep the slugs off.

Welcome to Permies with this very interesting post. I had to look it up on the Wiki because I've never seen it advertised. I saw it mentioned in previous posts on it but I assumed it would not be a perennial in my area [zone 4b, Central Wisconsin]. I had it confused with some other "ground nut" that was not a vine. Since the culture of it is similar to sunchokes, it would make good sense to grow them together and stack functions! They should make great companions since the sunchoke can contribute the trellis necessary and apios americana can contribute fertility as a legume.
In Central Wisconsin, my sunchokes are just peeking out of the ground. I wish I had a few, just to try.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apios_americana
Since both tend to 'travel',  I would put them in a high raised bed. In the fall, as I harvest my sunchokes, I have to dig up the whole bed anyway, I might as well get the apios.
Getting the beans would be a big plus. I wonder if the "dense racemes" of these flowers are palatable to my bees?
Wow! talk about stacking functions!
Thanks again for this great post, Anthony!

James Sullivan wrote:I've grown beans on corn. I though it worked great. I did have some of the corn topple over. I grew it on top of my first hugel type raised bed and had very little actually soil to work with, using mostly mulch and mounds of aged compost.
I've thought about trying with sunchokes.
Has anyone tried beans with sunflowers?

Yes: \Corn is not as strong as the tall sunflowers. I had "grey stripe" and the stem was as big as my forearm. so unless you live in tornado alley, the beans will go up these stalks really well. Sunchokes often have multiple stems, so I'm not sure if that would work as well but if you 'helped' them get started, they should do really well IMHO. Alternately, you could clip every stem but the thickest. that should work. They are good companions says this site:
https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/vegetables/jerusalem-artichokes/jerusalem-artichoke-companions.htm#:~:text=Pole%20beans%20are%20beneficial%20companions,of%20Helianthus%20tuberosa%20for%20support.

Great to have you join us, Suzan. Of all the things that are easy to keep without cooking or freezing, beans in grain is the most nutritious. It is a great staple to have on hand.

Melissa Ferrin wrote:My dad's hobby was carpentry. I think any tree that produces luxury wood is money in the bank. The most expensive woods he ever bough were tropical, Ebony, Padauk, and Purple Heart, but black walnut or what ever grows where you live would be a good investment.

That is indeed great advice, especially to any youngster just starting up: these trees take a long time to be "useable" and cropped for cash. I want to grow something too that will survive me: Nut trees, oaks. I will probably die before I get the first nut or the first acorn, but yes, we should plant also for beauty and for the future generations.
To "fill the larder", though, I'm looking at more immediate profits on the investment. [But then, I'm 73, so time is running short].

Jenny Wright wrote:Update:
Life got busy and I ended up just pruning my mulberry way back to only two branches and then I stuck the five sticks I pruned off straight into a drip irrigated bed I have (though with all the spring rain I get, I won't be turning the irrigation on until July probably). Anyway, it's been a couple of months and the original tree is full of green bud and the sticks are budded out as well. I'm very tempted to pull one up and see where root development is at but I'm resisting and leaving them be.
I'll post pictures when the leaves appear.

Your original tree doesn't seem to be in trouble since it is full of green buds so you are Ok there. You did well.
About the sticks, though, a few buds do not indicate that the sticks have *rooted*. You are still fine since both tree and sticks have proceeded to the bud stage.
A branch normally has enough energy stored that it will bud... But not necessarily root.
You didn't indicate which type of mulberry it is. White are the easiest to root, followed by red, then black. Since you are in the Pacific Northwest, you might be able to grow the big ones, the Pakistani mulberry. In my zone, I can't because it is too cold. If you can, I sincerely envy you as I love mulberries! Here is more on propagating by cuttings: https://www.thesurvivalgardener.com/from-inbox-two-mulberry-questions/#:~:text=Red%20mulberries%20(Morus%20rubra)%20are,you%20lose%20nothing%20by%20attempting.
It will not grow roots until the leaves are completely out. And even then, Jut take out the poorest looking one. If you see roots, the other ones should be fine, but patience!

Michael Moreken wrote:Got a few free elderberry plants (~two years, maybe production this year, for chickens raw, cooked for people.
Saved a small barrel of Beauregard yams grew last year 4 tiny plants turned into monsters.  So maybe I'll plant them around the back yard, I'll have to watch out and not mow to much of their leaves.

Have you started making slips of your Beauregard? You didn't indicate your growing zone, but here in Wisconsin I make my slips in March/ April.
For the elderberry plants, they are too good to give to chickens [although they'd be great at doing the cleaning.]
I made hardwood cuttings of my elderberries, thinking well, even if I have a couple that make it, that will be a success!. Well, I made 36 cuttings and all but 3 are making it.. Mainly for jellies [the color is out of this world] and for the  winter syrup.
This is my favorite recipe:
https://www.daringgourmet.com/homemade-elderberry-syrup-for-colds-coughs-and-flu/
To make it last longer, I add a generous amount of Vodka [Honey and Vodka are time extenders]. Since I start from fresh, I'm not sure how long it will make or last.
The liqueur is not too shabby either!
https://honest-food.net/elderberry-liqueur-recipe/#recipe

Stephanie Hildebrand wrote:Hi, we are reclaiming an orchard with trees planted decades ago and are interested in the idea of nitrogen fixing plants and guilds. We are located in zone 3 and currently have grass and weeds growing under all the trees (apple, sour cherry, plum and pear. Do you have suggestions of how to start ?  What type of mulch would you recommend?  I am wondering if white clover is a good option but worry about it being invasive and taking over where we don’t want it.

White clover is not really "Invasive". Yes, it is not a "native" plant and in time [like 2 yrs max in my sand box], it will exhaust itself and be overtaken by regular weeds. It is not the kind of plant that you install once and done: Other plants: grasses, weeds will take over.
You may have heard that "Nature abhors emptiness". It is true:  you can take that to the bank! Something, anything will still attempt to grow under our fruit trees. Once we penetrate ourselves of that fact, we can make the decision: Do I want grass or do I want flowers to help pollinators. Do I want weeds or do I want another crop. Will Comfrey bring up nutrients from deep down for my apples to grow better?
Those "trees planted decades ago", what kind of shape are they in? Are some of them on the end of their life and not producing? or are they still going like gangbusters. That should be your first question.
Let's assume you will cull the trees that are not productive and plant new ones. For every tree you would like, google "growing guild for apples, pear, cherries etc. in zone 3 sandy, heavy, loamy soil", whichever you have.  It will give you a lot of ideas for nitrogen fixers as a lot of good people have done a lot of work on this aspect of horticulture. I even placed rhubarb under some of my trees: Rhubarb is a heavy feeder, and since I'm going to give some chicken manure to my trees, why not add a rhubarb plant there: on the shadier side, since they like it cooler. It will share the bounty with the tree. False indigo is another one I'd like: they are nitrogen fixers and close enough to the trunk, they will prevent quackgrass as they will have a lot of stems that will shade the ground and the trunk. In the fall, you can cut the stems... or leave them there, pod and all, for protection.
Or please yourself and get pretty flowers, why not? I really like nasturtiums, and they make a heavy vine that will choke weeds past installation. [but it is an annual].
As far as "mulch" you'd have to look at sources you might have near you: In the garden, leaves in the fall are my favorite because they will decompose and be good the following year. In the alleys and under the trees, I place chicken litter after my chickens are done with the bedding [Do keep it a few inches from the trunk, though...] I also get chips from the county after a storm or also after  some of my trees are brought down. I rent the chipper or pay for someone to come and chip them [expensive service but it is not that often, plus it creates a lot of chips that I don't have to buy]. Win win.
Another favorite is comfrey: It goes deep in search of nutrients, which it brings to the surface to be mined by the roots of my fruit tree. As the top dies in winter, its leaves are put to good use as a natural mulch that will feed the tree too.
Protect it from chicken though: chickens with throw themselves on comfrey like poverty on the World!
You do not indicate if you have animals in your orchard or if it is fenced against deer? If you don't have animals you might want to add chickens or ducks to fertilize the soil and sheep or goats as lawnmowers. If you want to practice only the chop and drop, [meaning without animals], it will take a very long time to enrich the soil.
I was even thinking of having black currants under some trees. Gooseberries have thorns, so that would not be my favorite. If you would like another *crop* under your trees, you have to look at the needs of both and how they might interfere: chickens will make sort work of a crop of gooseberries when they are ripe! If you spray [I hope you don't] you would have to make sure that one is not in bloom while you are spraying the other, for example. Or if they are likely to have the same kind of pest, maybe you don't want to put 2 species that attract the same bugs...
If you do mow with a conventional lawn mower, set the blade at the highest and throw towards the tree: Even if you mow rarely you will have additional biomass after each mowing. I mow about 3 times per season 4 times at most. Each time, I cuss that if I could, I would bale it... but I don't have the equipment. bummer!
Tell us how you are doing, Stephanie, and good luck!

I think you are on to something, Nicole. It is an abnormal thing to be cooped up during the winter, for example, without creating a dichotomy between city folks and rural folks.
The fresh air feels "right". [I must say I'm lucky to not suffer from allergies too!]
Even if we have a green thumb and enjoy multiple houseplants, I enjoy them a hundred times more when they are outside. It is when I am outside that I gaze into a perfect flower, look at a butterfly and think AAaahhh! What a beautiful day! It is great to be alive today!

John F Dean wrote:Cheap tools have a limited place on my homestead.  If I am in a situation where the tool is likely to be damaged or lost,  I will go for the cheap one.  For example, working on my cistern hand pump calls for a cheap wrench.  

Yep. I think we all have these tools we bought when maybe we didn't have enough money or were too young to know better or were 'gifted' one. I know I have some. Or just plain old tools that were "rode hard and put up wet" as they say. My husband turned me on to "having the right tool to do the job", and even a little bit better than what you need: When machinery is operating close to its maximum range, it ages faster too.
The main problem with my cheap tools is that they will manage to break down just when you absolutely need them the most [and don't have a "spare" handy]. That is when the most mild mannered retired teacher will resort to speaking French in a very loud voice!
I hate to throw tools that still have a little bit of life in them, so yeah, I have a few "spares", but if I have a great tool and a "spare", I still find it difficult to use the spare. After a while, I think: "Why am I keeping this  @#$%^&&^$#!!! piece of junk! It is not paying rent, so...
That is when I will gift it to someone just starting out. [Not a great gift but if a young kid doesn't have anything, it is better than nothing.] Such was the case for my first 2 post hole diggers. You know: The ones you plant, then spread and lift.
Repeat. Gosh. what a piece of junk! Why do they even make those?
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/truper-hercules-pattern-fbg-post-hole-digger-ca-38f-1433160?store=194&cid=Shopping-Google-Organic_Feed-Product-1433160&cid=Shopping-Google-LOB-Local_Feed&utm_medium=Google&utm_source=Shopping&utm_campaign=LOB&utm_content=Local_Feed&gclid=Cj0KCQjwmPSSBhCNARIsAH3cYgZKS8DcR9MbWEULLR7DzcSp6Ngc3xm5LY1bgsgvxVeooPPWXEQvdkEaAnXQEALw_wcB

I progressed to the rotating screw, a manual one that you turn then lift. Easier, although you cannot make a hole very close  to an immovable object because you don't have the clearance to turn it.
https://www.lewiscontractorsales.com/seymour-s500-industrial-iwan-post-hole-auger-adjustable-6-7-8.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwmPSSBhCNARIsAH3cYgb_3sUtqbSaXr5wBzluBDcOiO8p8O89KMMCcfY6xbIvN7zEVEcuPjMaAj6IEALw_wcB

Finally, I settled on the little battery operated Ryobi: You can get close, it will dig quite a  few holes before it runs out of power [Which is usually when I run out of steam as well!]
https://www.homedepot.com/p/RYOBI-ONE-HP-18V-Brushless-Cordless-Earth-Auger-with-6-in-Bit-with-4-0-Ah-Battery-and-Charger-P2930VNM/315205052
Just go very slow: You don't want to catch a root or a rock with that one! It will throw you.

Larry Fletcher wrote:Since this is an older post, I’m curious if anyone has had any success with this concept? Anyone attempt this?

I did post enthusiastically on the topic and I only have the wild hazelnuts [that do not grow very big & tend to be wormy]. But I'm still thinking about it. I have a bit of lumber and this summer, if I have enough time, I'm ready to make several boxes that I would place near wild hazelnut bushes. I would make them like cubes [about 1'X1'X1']with one face having a 3" hole and place them under boughs/ wood piles. They've been creative in their nut hiding: a number of cavities in my garage received a few nuts, but those were not very good. If only I could grow *good* nuts, I would put more effort into the venture.
Perhaps if we show them where we want them... who knows? We would have a much better chance IMHO if I could grow filberts [but in zone 4b, soon to be 5 it is unlikely to happen soon]. If they do take us up on it, we should not be greedy so they survive and maybe do better the next year. Grey squirrels would probably harvest more as they need more. Red squirrels, I hesitate to invite as they are also a lot more destructive: they will chew through stuff.
I have a couple of walnut trees and chestnuts, but much too young to produce yet. they are just hanging in there, not in a hurry to grow big, so...

Joe Grand wrote:Black walnuts, you can get nuts after ten years, after sixty years of nuts & shade you can get $1000. to $100,000.00 for the first eight feet of trunk, if you followed a few simple rules.

Black walnut lumber is indeed extremely valuable and folks, here in Wisconsin, have stolen black walnut logs because they are so valuable. Considering that past the planting and a bit of watering in the first year you only have to wait to get a nice chunk of change, I'd say that is an excellent return on the investment. Certainly my bank is not giving me anywhere near that much on a nut, even after 60 years! Now, I only wish they were easier to crack! I cannot grow black walnuts here as it gets too cold, so I'm looking at *butternut*.
Here is how they measure up in categories that matter to me:
* Both are allelopathic, unfortunately, but if you need the shade you may not care about the juglone. Here the butternut is not as bad as the black walnut as will accept more plantings in its shade.
* Both types need to be planted in full sun.
* For easier to crack, the butternut wins. [Using a vice is best for more complete nutmeats.]
* For the value of the timber, the black walnut wins.
* For longevity, the black walnut wins. But because it grows slower, you will have to wait longer to collect on your investment.
* For hardiness, the butternut wins [zones 3-7] as it grows way in the north of Wisconsin. Black walnuts don't make it in my zone 4b, although I have seen a couple of planted specimens, but in zones 5-9, they perform well.
* How about the value of the *shells*, after you have taken out the meat? It is an excellent soft grit abrasive media used for blast cleaning and tumbling. The shell is used by the oil industry as lost circulation material and as a filter media cleaning produced water. Most recently, Black Walnut shells have been discovered as a great natural medium for athletic turf fields. There were less articles referenced for butternut shells being used, so the win goes to the black walnut on that point.
*How quickly do they  bear? For the butternut, 7-10 years,  for the black walnut, 12- 15. (Since the date coming into production varies widely with the sources, I took the Arbor Day foundation's numbers for both to try to compare "apples to apples", so to speak).
* Both are alternate bearers [some years a lot, other years not many at all]. Could that be altered by feeding the tree more, maybe? I don't know .
* What about that darn husk? before you get at the nuts, you have to remove the darn husk.
* Both trees can be taped for sap to be boiled down and make syrup. Both were used to color clothing. For far out products, black walnut husks can easily give you a tincture, which is anti-parasitic, and useful not just to dye something [everything!] very dark brown/black but a black walnut husk tincture is also anti-fungal and anti-bacterial and a land based source of iodine!  :https://practicalselfreliance.com/black-walnut-tincture/  That's pretty cool, IMHO.
Just for fun, check how the Iroquois used butternut for food and medicine: https://aihd.ku.edu/foods/Butternut.html
* Resistance to diseases: most of the butternuts have died due to butternut canker, which is a fungus. There is no cure, just good sanitation [removing affected limbs] and try to grow from nuts of sound trees in the hope that they have inherited some resistance.
* The black walnut also suffers from cankers and may die: The "thousand cankers disease". for this one too, good sanitation is the only relief, but that only delays the progression of the disease. https://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/terrestrial/pathogens-and-diseases/thousand-cankers-black-walnut-disease#:~:text=Thousand%20cankers%20disease%20(TCD)%20is,beetle%20WTB)%2C%20Pityophthorus%20juglandis.

Mike Barkley wrote:As far as I know they sell slips only. Here's their shipment dates.

Thanks again, Mike. That might actually work in my zone [WI-6]. We can't really plant tomatoes either until after Memorial day.
Maybe I can write them a nice letter and add a lot of pretty please and maybe they would sell me the tubers in the Fall so I can make slips in the Spring. That would work.

Mike Barkley wrote:Here's a trusted source for quality sweet potatoes.

Thanks for finding this great source. I'd like to get me some of them in the fall as they store quite easily and they cannot ship slips in March because of the cold here.
That is the one thing I've learned [the hard way] about sweet potatoes: They absolutely cannot take cold storage!

William Bronson wrote:I have two kinds of purple yam half buried in moist potting soil.
So far one has not sprouted at all and the other has barely sprouted.
The "Japanese yam" has been going gang busters.
I should be potting up slips, but mostly I've been feeding them to the bunnies!

Yikes! You are really missing out on a great treat!

Lina Joana wrote:

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:
A food that I was not used to is quickly becoming my favorite: Asian Sweet Potatoes. They are not the yam, nor the sweet potato at the Thanksgiving table; I don't care for those and they can be a bit stringy, but these Asian ones grow easily without much help in my zone 4b Central Wisconsin.

Do you have a source for those plants? The sound great!
Chickweed, dead nettle, violets, and wild garlic pop up all over the garden in early spring. All mild, and easy to cut a bowlfull and toss in stir fry or stew.

Lina, you didn't tell us where you are from. In Central Wisconsin, we can reach out to Gurney's:
https://www.gurneys.com/product/murasaki_sweet_potato_?p=0515548&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjN-SBhCkARIsACsrBz6sDaZUSPpoq5z9e3LzpuHgw9ih0SvpBSatLaLrisMod_fz-OqDqTgaAhocEALw_wcB
But that may not advance you much for this year: Typically, I start my slips in March. If you are north of me and Gurney's rushes the order, you might instead plant the whole tuber, but that is quite a waste as from one tuber, you could get 10-15 slips, each ready to give you a whole hill. And a hill that you start by planting the whole tuber will not be more prolific than the one you start from a slip. I'm still picking slips from my tubers.
Here is a video on how to make slips from sweet potatoes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_potato
The only thing I do differently is I do not *cut* the slip with scissors. Instead, I practically submerge the whole tuber. The small roots start best where the base of the slip makes contact with the water and I carefully *tear* it from the mother plant. At this time, it often has roots already attached. I figure I may gain a week or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbc1rnEfbcM
I got mine from a health food store near me a couple of years ago and made slips. You might want to google "Asian sweet Potato slips for sale near me", or Murasaki Sweet potato for sale and see what comes up in your State. Unfortunately, the providers of my Health Food store started spraying the tubers with something that prevents them from sprouting, so buying a tuber to make your own slips may not work. I'm going to go and complain to them today. For this year, I'm using the tubers that lasted the whole year in my homer pail.

This sweet potato  has a deep purple skin and very white flesh as you see in the Gurney picture. Have the water going before you start peeling as the flesh will oxidize very quickly and be less appetizing. It melts in your mouth. No need to add butter or brown sugar either!
I use it in turkey stuffing because it does have a taste reminiscent of chestnuts. [and I love chestnuts!]
You may be able to purchase sweet potato slips from Southern Exposure as well, but if you are North of me, you may not get them till past May, giving you a really short season. Along with the slips ,you can get a "growing guide".  I grow mine in raised beds, as they are wanderers and they will "layer" anywhere the vine makes contact with the soil, a bit like pumpkins. https://www.southernexposure.com/sweet-potato-growing-guide/
Or you could go to a food store that caters to Asian tastes.
There is also a deep purple sweet potato from which you can grow tubers used in many Hawaiian/ Thai/ Asian desserts:
https://www.yummly.com/recipes/purple-sweet-potato desserts.
Hope this helps.

Hmmm. Money in the bank and food in the ground without much work...
Tall order. First, it has to taste good, of course, and not be fussy.
Asparagus are the number one I can think of. Just a scattering of wood ashes, winter mulch against the weeds and pick to your heart's content.
Sunchokes definitely fit the bill if you like them. They are not all created equal and the kind that does not spread too much is definitely wonderful, especially in a bed. The pink skinned one is a fart/ methane/ colic causing machine. Even in Wisconsin, I can keep them in the ground and they will come back like a storm trooper the following year. I could harvest them all along if I was inclined to cover them with a very heavy mulch as out ground freezes... too much work to retrieve them in -40F weather.
A food that I was not used to is quickly becoming my favorite: Asian Sweet Potatoes. They are not the yam, nor the sweet potato at the Thanksgiving table; I don't care for those and they can be a bit stringy, but these Asian ones grow easily without much help in my zone 4b Central Wisconsin. Just like sunchokes, you want to grow them in loose soil in a tall bed . 12" is not too much. They will easily give you as much in volume as a Yukon Gold or a Russet, per plant.
They are very starchy with no strings whatsoever and I prefer them over regular potatoes, [even the Yukon Gold!]. Taste wise, they remind me of chestnuts. A great reason I love them, beside this great taste, is that they will keep on a shelf in my house until at least March, without any special tending. [No wrapping, checking on them or anything]. I have mine in Homer buckets in a closet, just out of the sun. This means that I can be self sufficient in sweet Asian potatoes as I can easily grow slips in March-April and plant them after last frost for a crop. Easy peasy!
By contrast, regular potatoes need 90% humidity in storage at a temperature as close as possible to your refrigerator's crisper. So I must buy potatoes: Even if I could get a great crop, which I can here as Central WI is potato country, I still could not *store* hundreds of pounds of potatoes successfully.
Another relatively work free crop is elderberries. I have several and since they needed a little pruning anyway, and I love elderberries, I made 36 cuttings, figuring that even if I only got 2 or 3, I would count it as a success... Well, they are all coming and here I am, in early April wondering where will I put them all?! Well, a hedge, of course. And so what  if birds eat most of them?  I only have 5 that are producing, but even that is enough to keep me in syrup all year. [and jelly, and wine!]
and when you say "Money in the bank", while potatoes are cheap, even sunchokes are a bit pricey. Elderberries are close to unobtanium so If I wanted to sell a few plants, I'd make money.
Same thing with my raspberries: In a bed and with a lot of leaf mulch, they are producing like crazy. They send tons of runners, and family and friends will give me a pretty penny for those plants, [after they get a taste of them!]
Garlic grows with abandon if you mulch against weeds. They will do well in our winters if I don't find all of them in the Fall too.

Well, Laurel, how much do you value the friendship and what does your mate think? How much support could you get there to put an end to the 'deal'?
Call me anti-social, call me selfish,  but I would not have offered to share my good gardening soil that I've worked hard to improve, knowing this, to start with, but if it is 'done', it is done.
The situation is just too fraught with potential conflicts, and the fact that I sense some reticence on your part tells me that there is serious trepidation on your side about that.
Take the problem backwards: If push comes to shove, what do you value more: Good food and the ability to grow good food as you see fit, be free to do as you wish on your own land?... or the friendship?
Note also that the idea that your friends would live there only for a while is not a contract you could enforce.
The French have a saying, "Rien ne dure comme le provisoire," meaning "nothing lasts like the temporary."
The constraint that you want to accept now  to nurture the friendship as 'temporary' may last, and last, and last...
In Wisconsin, for example , if you 'allow' your neighbor to use a path on your land for 7 years, it becomes expected that s/he will continue to have the enjoyment of it. You just might want to ask informally what the Law says in your area.
Do you and your mate have the diplomatic skills to "put your foot down" now, before they move in and keep the friendship intact?  I can assure you that this kind of agreement rarely ages well.
You are a kind person and I pray that you do not get taken advantage of. If to safeguard the friendship you go through with it, you may want to put it in writing, like a regular, enforceable contract as someone suggested before.
Yeah, I know: From afar, we can give advice easily, but we didn't sign any "prenup" either.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Are wine caps the same as king stropharia?  I bought spawn and have naturalized them in my garden.  They actually fruit under plants that create lots of shade with their leaves… and also increase the humidity.  To have mushrooms in desert conditions is rare.
I love them

Yep: King Stropharia are the wine caps. I planted them in my garden but I think there was too much sun there. [And I'm in zone 4b. I'm growing mine in straws and in wood chips and now I planted them on the north side of the house, so quite shaded. Indeed, you are correct about them loving shade: On the north side of the house, they really grew well right under the hostas. In between, they grew as well, but it was one here, one there. Under the hostas, I would find 10-15, so they really like it shady!
They do tend to naturalize a bit: The ones that grew the first year seem to have grown into the next 2 beds.

Thanks, Annette for your mention of "cool burning".
This is what I was trying to express in a previous post: many careful tiny fires as Australian Aborigines have been doing since... forever is better than holding off on the burning until there is so much fuel accumulated that there is no way to be "safe".
I looked up the definition and I came across this article which is interesting in that it says that small burns are also good for wildlife, which I wasn't so sure of, but it makes sense:
https://www.watarrkafoundation.org.au/blog/aboriginal-fire-management-what-is-cool-burning
the article mentions that Australia had gotten away from the practice but is going back to it after devastating fires there.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Ah yes, the high price of ignorance!!!  😊
I have bought old feather pillows at yard sales, though they are getting harder to find.
Wool is also a good source of nitrogen, and human hair.  Maybe you could find a hair dresser who would let you have his/her trimmings!?

I do not grow sheep, so the wool is out for me but ...
What a great idea: My hairdresser was complaining about having all that hair to get rid of. Thanks! When I clean my hairbrush, I hang the hair on trees nearby. Birds can take advantage of soft hairs to make nesting materials. But yes, I could bury it in the garden as well.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Sand and clay is wonderful parent material.
For other nitrogen sources, look at compost resources, they list some unexpected sources, like feathers.

Indeed. I wish that when I take my chickens to be butchered, I could keep the feathers.
Unfortunately, by law here in Wisconsin, the feathers must be soaked in bleach before they are taken to the dump.
The only way for me to keep my chickens feathers is to butcher them myself. but Gosh! what a stupid law! what a waste!
1/ Adding bleach is more costly than it has to be.
2/We lose all this nitrogen and so folks will be tempted to make that up by buying artificial nitrogen,
3/ These feathers won't decompose as fast at the dump after they are soaked in bleach.
4/ Plus the room they occupy! I wish we could change this here, in Central Wisconsin.

I was curious about the term "cheat grass" which we do not seem to have in Central Wisconsin, so I looked up:
Why do they call it cheat grass?
"It is not native but came from the grasslands of eastern Europe and Asia. It is called cheat grass because cattle think it is great food until it all of a sudden dries up in June (where I grew up we call it June grass). It eventually becomes inedible and can even pack up seeds under the tongues of livestock".

So it is an invasive, and after June, the palatability is poor for cattle: the stuff dries up and becomes a fire hazard.
Wild horses, because of the structure of their stomachs may poop seeds in their manure, which would make it very difficult to eradicate this invasive. This said, I really deplore the eradication of wild horses. Not because they are a noble animal but, (and I'm going to shock a few sensitive souls here):  they are an excellent source of protein to humans as well. Their meat is not marbled but it is delicious, very high quality and should be slightly underdone.
While I'm sure there are other fire hazards, this invasive grass perhaps should be burned to improve the quality of food for all these herbivores, if only the land allowed for better, longer lasting forage to be planted?
One of the links I opened in this post pointed to the possibility of multiplying herbivores [cattle and wild horses] who would then devour this grass, thus limiting the amount of fuel. Certainly such a solution looks very appealing, however here are a couple of problems I see:
* Multiplying herbivores may multiply predators as well, so a county might spend a lot of money facilitating the multiplication of wild herbivores only to see them perish constantly at the teeth of predators.
* The number of herbivores that can successfully breed and multiply depends on the quality and quantity of the forage available 365 days a year. If, as was indicated, this invasive grass loses its palatability in June, what would be available the rest of the year? That link indicated that very few foals make it to adulthood. Could predators but also forage be a problem?
* This grass may have found its own way to disseminate since it can pack seeds under the tongue of herbivores. The quote does not reveal if that impedes cattle and wild horses in their ability to eat or if dislodges, those seeds can plant themselves successfully elsewhere?
* To multiply the herbivore population, it seems that the invasive grass has to be removed *first*. On a large scale, this may be extremely difficult to achieve. Do the burns make it easier or harder for this grass to propagate? I don't know. Some seeds germinate better *after* a fire.
* As far as "fires have always happened naturally" being inaccurate, we have all seen videos of lightning strikes igniting fires, especially if you have a tinderbox of a vegetation. So it seems that as long as there have been lighting strikes, there has been a *possibility* for fires to start "spontaneously", without mankind 'helping'. The videos seem to be source enough that 'natural fires' can happen IMHO.
* Much more interesting is "How are most fires started out west"? This seems to be a much more elusive number to arrive at correctly:
"In California, 9% of wildfires are caused by arson, officials say." https://www.businessinsider.com/criminology-professor-charged-with-arson-in-california-forest-fire-2021-10. This comes from "Business Insider".

"Intentionally set fires account for 13 percent of all fires. Intentionally set fires also account for 10 percent of all fire deaths and 8 percent of all fire injuries". Says FEMA. but that is for all of the US.
and one last source:

What percentage of California wildfires are caused by humans?
"Most wildfires are human-caused (88% on average from 2016 to 2020), although the wildfires caused by lightning tend to be slightly larger and burn more acreage (55% of the average acreage burned from 2016 to 2020 was ignited by lightning).Oct 4, 2021". This one is from the Congressional Research Service: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/IF10244.pdf

When you see such enormous discrepancies between the sources, it is hard to rely on any of them. It could be that they are computing using different metrics, like comparing the acreage that is caused by arson versus the number of fires set by arson?
If I may digress for a second: this is a pet peeve of mine: When a bad actor causes a damage so large that he/she cannot possibly indemnify victims properly, taxpayers are called on all too often to do it, and in the melee the bad actor gets to retain most of his/her wealth. But if we have arsonists and if they do cause that many fires, perhaps locking them up, taking all their money and property to compensate the victims is a proper and moral route to take as a society. Using all taxpayer monies to palliate this need in a way subsidizes arsonists, even if that is not the intent. Crush them, and crush their lives as they have crushed the lives of their victims.

In a tinderbox, it is hard to do proper "controlled fires", and I hate to see any animal or human suffer such pain and losses. It does not make the goal of reducing the number and extent of fires by doing prescribed burns wrong.
It just has to be done "better", "smarter".
I do not believe there are "alleged" humans causing all this, but there certainly are jerks in this world and we need to deal with them..

A related question, and a better one, IMHO is: Would it be possible to make *small*, prescribed burns, but all the time?
It seems the fire devastation occurs when a lot of fuel has been accumulating for a long period of time. Change these parameters and the fires will be smaller and precious wildlife will be spared.
I do not know the feasibility of this because I don't like in a super dry area, but if only a couple of acres could be burned at one time, the wildlife would mostly have the time to get out of the way and life and property could be spared the devastating fires, biochar would get into the soil and the vegetation would remain rooted on the hills, the mud would stay put in a torrential rain...
Seems to me the trick is to make the burns small enough that they do not get out of hand but frequent enough that in 10-15 years, every parcel that needed burning could be burned safely. Do some 24-7, with tanks and hoses and firefighters, but only a tiny surface at one time.
Again, like I say, from afar, this is what seems logical. I know also that arid places can be plagued with winds that will mess up with those plans.
My husband was saying the other day: "Hasn't all of California burned? We keep hearing of so many fires burning thousands of acres, you'd think that everything is charred by now".
I know that California is vast, but it is hard to believe that with the number of fires, the state hasn't been reduced  to a cinder...

In Central Wisconsin, we have prescribed fires too:
https://prescribedfire.org/
We cannot start fires any time we want. The greatest dangers for us are when the snow is gone and the grasses from the last season are still there. We are warned every year but there are accidental fires every year. [It is Wisconsin, so it usually doesn't spread very far, thank goodness!] We cannot burn, even in a trash barrel unless we have snow on the ground, or water handy, and we may not walk away at any time. Other times, we need to tell the Fire Chief ahead of time, and if the permit is denied, it is denied and we could get a visit to verify.
The only burns I do in in my raised beds, to get some of the weed seeds destroyed. So I do not have some wildlife to protect, but it just makes sense to be cautious. You have to have enough water handy to put out the fire you start. Not a bucket of water, mind you, but a hose, so it cannot be done when the water would freeze in the hose, of course. It is better done late in the fall, right before the first abundant snowfall of the season, or a serious rain event.
Last year, I wasn't feeling good, so I let it go. Now, I'm looking at some beds that will need a good going over with a torch. The beds are only 4'X8', so you would think that I could control that. but it is not a given: I laid a good thickness of dead leaves last fall. With the rains and the snows, they are mostly matted down now, but a burning leaf could take off and land elsewhere. I may call on one of the companies that does that for a living to do the burns for all my beds and be done with it. Better safe than sorry as the fines are huge, and the properties you could destroy are not just your own, exposing you to lawsuits.
I think I will opt to use my little hedge cutter, to remove the worst of it and burn in a barrel. Then I should be able to go over the beds that need it with a torch.
I don't know how you can manage in super dry areas but I do not envy your situation.

Before I start, I hope you realize that colonies that escape can find places with a pretty complicated design to raise their queen and make honey, like in between the studs of a poorly insulated building, or under a roof, and a few of them make it over winter sometimes, so I would not fret too much about the overall shape of hive boxes. This said, they have their preferences.
The main reason that Langstroth hives are more common is that there are more companies that build the wood ware. Most folks, when they are starting do not want to bother building one from scratch, [They want to be beeks, not carpenters, plus they  realize they only have a slim understanding of all the complexities of beekeeping] so once they have a couple hives, they cannot interchange with any other system of keeping bees and tend to stay with the Langstroth.
That is what happened to me. Since I do not know of any woodware company that builds up to Warré's specs, I retained the Langstroth.
Am I happy with the Langstroth? Not particularly: a full box of honey is a bear to lift at my age, and I'm resigned to pull frames one by one, which keeps the hive opened longer. As far as better for cold climate, well, because the Langstroth can contain a bigger volume, which takes longer to cool down, keeping all other variables the same, I would give a small advantage to the Langstroth, but only a small advantage: I still lose hives in cold weather. The trick is to keep the wood tight fitting and thick.
+ This said, the 12"X 12" of the Warré is more to a bee's liking.
+ Certainly, smaller boxes are much easier to handle, whether you are supering or harvesting.
+ Supering with a Warré is a bit of a bother because, to mimic what bees normally do, you have to super from the bottom since the natural inclination of bees is to hang on the top bar and build downward. That means lifting every box, then add one at the bottom, then replace what you just took off, keeping them in the same order. In a way, since the boxes are a lot lighter, it is not that bad and it makes the beekeeper keep better tabs on what's going on in the hive and prevents the bees from building bridges between boxes, so at extraction time, things come apart more easily. This guy has found the trick: He built his own hive lifter so he can super from the bottom without disturbing the hive as much.

The improvements I would make to the Warré for the cold:
In a colder climate like mine, if I were to design boxes, whether Langstroth or Warré:
1/  I would make the wood twice as thick, or whatever I can lift full without getting a hernia.
2/ I would *add* handles on the outside, rather than live with this handle notch: the pine box is 3/4", which is already thin. At the notch, the thickness diminishes to less than 1/4". When you have strong winds and temperatures that can stay at -35 to -40F for a week, the bees go through their stores awfully fast. I've had many a colony with big stores die of hunger in the winter because they became lethargic and could no longer get at their stores. Commercial beeks prefer the notch because the hives are easier to transport long distances when there are no handles protruding. If you don't move your hives, there is no good reason to lose this wood thickness. Having protruding handles also give you a better grip to separate the boxes
3/ Assuming that the wood can be precision milled, [big assumption]I would create a slight bevel on the top and the bottom of each box so the rain could shed better. This would also create a larger contact surface between the boxes, making it harder for the wind to slip in. Between tight fitting boxes, a bee can only cement so much, so it might actually make it easier to separate the boxes, especially if you use a hive lifter.
4/ Because of the system for hanging frames, the front and the back of each box also has a rabbet, with a much narrower thickness. I'd love to remedy that. Keep reading.
5/ Assuming I go with a bevel, I would *add* a 1/4" bar notched at the proper spacing to have 8 frames at the top front and back of each box from which to hang the frames instead of rabbeting. This would add wood thickness instead of losing it.
6/ The frames also could take a couple of modifications: Instead of the shoulders at each top of the frames, I would make a rectangular frame [much easier to mill] and drill a hole for a nail on each side. Each frame would then hang by 2 nails instead of these shoulders which are a bear to clean when you are replacing the foundation. The bees cannot glue the frame to the box this way. Another advantage of hanging by 2 nails: I once had a hive that lost its level: one side of the hive started listing: The bees were uncomfortable and built the honeycomb only on the "high" side. With nails, the frames are "self leveling", so they always hang absolutely vertical.
7/ I built my own extractor assuming that I would use medium frames. That leaves a lot of unoccupied space in the 55 gallon barrel I'm using for an extractor. If I were to switch to a Warré style, I could make the frames taller and give them a  quarter of a turn in the extractor: Instead of hanging as they were in the hive, I would arrange a way to hold them by the nails, with the bottom of the frames towards the outside of the barrel. I might even fit 2 layers of frames since each frame is narrower than in a Langstroth.
That is a lot of changes but the big advantage of the setup is that the bees would be warmer and more comfortable in the winter, in a cold climate; with taller frames, you would not have to super as often.
The Warré also has a special roof with slanted sides to shed rain and snow. There is ventilation at the top. In winter here, this ventilation might be a bit too much, but there is a quilt box that is incorporated and in which you can put moisture absorbent material: Wood chips, old quilt pieces etc. to keep the heat in and moisture out.
In my Langstroth, in the winter I keep the bottom opening only wide enough for 2 bees to go out at the same time and I do the same thing at the top, under the roof/moisture box.
Either way, my hives are under a bee shelter so they never get rained on. This prolongs the life of the woodware, plus I can extract even if it rains a little. In the winter, I add heavy quilts, making sure I don't plug the ventilation holes.

We have a society where consumerism and planned obsolescence are king. The old adage "you get what you pay for" is partially at play here: You do not *always* get what you are paying for, even when you spend a lot: Many of us have made purchases thinking that "It would last longer" and got disappointed.
We are at every commercial pushed to buy, buy, buy what we truly may not need. And I put TV dinners and everything made of plastic in this category. Yes, they are convenient, and we will once in a while just "doctor a store bought pizza". But that is not a habit. Just a little treat, once in a while. Paying for "convenience" is not good for our wallets [or for our health either].  When you think about what you do when you buy "on installments", what are you paying for, essentially?
We are getting the exact same product as the person who pays for all of it up front. So, essentially, we are purchasing "convenience". And we are paying through the nose for it. "
Like Dad used to say: "Neither a borrower nor a lender be".
This "convenience" money allows every insurance agent to live off of it: Raise a family, buy cars, vacations etc.  So when we pay on Installment, we also pay for all these folks' expenses.
It may not be very charitable, but the system in which we live has allowed a lot of 'parasites' to live off of our labor: They do not "produce" goods that make our lives better. Instead they live off of our wages, our earnings.
We now have a lot of folks living off of credit, paycheck to paycheck, which puts them at serious risk if the economy should tank or the grid should go down.
I was chastised in a previous post for keeping my money in a Credit Union until I could afford to purchase up front and without strings attached. It was argued that in the time I would have enough to make the purchase, my interest at the bank would not grow as fast as inflation and that inflation would "eat my babies" (I think was the phrase). There is a kernel of truth in that.
Well, yes: If because a person is not in the habit to save money it will take them years to "afford" a good car, tools etc. Yes, the inflation would negate any savings in the long run. That is true, especially if you buy *a lot* of things on credit: You always drag this ball and chain.
But saving money is a habit we should all have to "save for a rainy day", just like you brush your teeth every day, take care of your possessions, shower and wash clothes. I was born in a modest home and I was a public School teacher for 26+ years, so I was not exactly born with a silver spoon in my mouth, or unnatural abilities. 2 kids, 2 marriages but I could face a $400.00 emergency if I had to, [contrary to a majority of folks in this country from what I hear]. I didn't marry wealth either.
Except for my first car, I have bought every car "up front", and usually brand new. That is 6 cars in 50 years that I bought personally without using "credit".
At age 72, we own a home and dependencies, 3 cars, 2 motorcycles and have enough money in the bank to be comfortable until we die. But we make a point to not use "credit" to buy "convenience". Dentists, plumbers, electricians, helpers of all stripes are paid on the day of service. [Why should they have to wait to get paid? I'd rather pay them immediately, as they are directly responsible for making my life better, even if it pinches, than give some of it to lending institutions].
Last year, we paid over $4,800 for a new floor and $1,800 for a new water heater. Again, we paid up front.
Also, and more to the point on this post, we don't mind paying a little more for quality, and also, which was not mentioned: If we can't afford it up front, we do without until we can afford it.
Sometimes, we'll "McGiver" a solution [Like my honey extractor or my cider press] and decide an item wasn't worth buying in the first place. During this time that we do without, we study  what is for sale.
Delaying gratification vaccinates us against "impulse buying".
I remember mom telling me: "It is not the expensive car you buy [even on credit] that will bankrupt you. It is the ice cream, going out to eat very day, buying stuff "because you have a coupon for it". So much money is frittered away on small expenses that we didn't think through, and when the big expense comes, we are without".
That is what being thrifty is all about. [and that is why I love Permies].

Dar Helwig wrote:I have lousy soil, mostly clay and sand. I want to grow potatoes and I see that some people put the potatoes in dirt and mound 8 inches to wood chips over them. I know wood chips have no nutrition. How much soil do I need to put the seed potatoes in. I'm thinking make  trench 2-3 inches deep, lay the potatoes, cover each seed with a foot wide by 3 inch deep layer of compost and then cover the whole row with 8 inches of chips. Will something like this work?
Do just the roots need good soil or do the tubers also require good soil?
I tried container planting last year and only got around 4-6 good potatoes (and a few runts) per plant.

Hmmm... clay and sand. Indeed, you have pretty poor soil. You didn't mention your Ph, but it should be 6-6.5, ideally. Correct it if it deviates too much from that. So you essentially have 2 of the 3 components for "adobe" AKA: A mudbrick.
I live in the Central Sands of Wisconsin, where we grow lots and lots of potatoes. The soil is *extremely sandy*. The "pros" just fertilize the poop out of it, which is not the best way in a garden setting, where your private well may get contaminated as sand will leach all that chemical fertilizer to the aquifer. [I'm a water officer for my Town, essentially to report on what is the best way to keep our water from contamination, and we have a lot of contamination from large annual rows farming...]
For your situation, I would grow in raised beds to get away from that clay. For the "long term improvement", you might want to use fall leaves if you can: Not only are they more nutritious than chips but they invite great biome to do part of the work for you. This is what is recommended in my neck of the woods [and we do really "GGgrreat"]
https://eatwisconsinpotatoes.com/spring-is-here-time-to-plant-your-potatoes/
The trench system works really well here because our soil is so sandy: It will never get waterlogged. In clayish soil, the trench would be only 4" [if that] if you opt not to make raised beds. 6-8" is way over the top for clayish soil. Having the spud seeds in trenches at first means that they will benefit from cold spring rains and get a good start, without need for too much watering later.
Now cover your seedlings with just enough soil to check their growth [like 1-2"]. As they start growing, start adding soil to the trench. This will be done here about 3 times a season in my garden: I stand on one side of the bed and rake up stuff  from the farther alley over the row of spuds. Weeding is done at the same time. Disturbing /building up the bed also prevents mice and voles from eating everything. [In formal beds, you will have less rodents, perhaps because they have to come way out of the ground to go over the "wall" and that exposes them to predators from the sky].
Depending how large a planting, you may want to add a copious amount of bone meal in the trench at planting time as it decomposes and nourishes your potatoes over the whole season. In beds, you can "target" the bone meal more successfully. If you have them, leaves will also improve the *structure* of your soil. [I typically bring in about 100 bags of leaves which I spread over the whole garden in the Fall. In the Spring, I only have the trouble of parting the rows and depositing my spuds [A la Ruth Stout]. Then, I keep piling decomposed leaves, mixed with some of my local soil, with a rake or a hoe. By the end of the Season, my rows tower over my local soil, maybe a foot/ 1.5 Ft. All I have to do to harvest is gather the whole plant in my hands and easily lift it out of the soil, then dig around to find 'lost souls'.
Indeed, wood chips are not a great addition, although if towards Fall you could put a small load in the *valleys* for the following year, that would also keep your spuds clean as you harvest them and the chips would then degrade and your soil would definitely improve [think of it as hügelkultur  where decomposing wood really nourishes the soil]. If you have a chipper handy, you might want to run them through as the smaller the particles, the easier they will incorporate. If you have only one small bed, you could try wood pellets, which is like sawdust that is formed into pellets [But yeah, that is expensive]. Rain will help it fall apart and the rate of absorption/ decomposition will be greatly improved.
You also mentioned straw. I have not had good results with straw because it attracts mice and voles. In your situation, clay plus straw might also pack really tight when rain is added, but I don't know your exact situation. The idea is to keep the soil friable.
Good luck to you.

I'm no expert in no-till, but the principle of not tilling is that you do not bring up more weed seeds that are already below the surface and you do not disturb the biology of the soil and all its beneficials that are already hard at work chomping on dead vegetation to make more soil.
Mother Nature has already installed a generous seed bank of weeds everywhere. The more you disturb the soil, the more weeds you will have, as you are giving them light in tilling. Yes, seeds need a little light to grow.
My first instinct in growing something is that I have to see the soil I'm putting it in, though, and a seed may need to be covered a bit. So what do we do with last year's growth which is "in your way"?! cut it short or burn it . That too helps the soil.
Rather than get hung up on the term no-till in the sense of not using a roto tiller[which you won't], consider what you are attempting to accomplish, then it becomes easier.
By cutting last year's growth to the ground [with a weed eater in your garden beds or a mulching mower in a larger plot], you are facilitating its decomposition and feeding the Earth with biomass. And then, you will have to scratch the row where you intend to plant, so no to tilling but yes to scratching as your seed needs to be covered a bit. Use a rake or a scratching tool in your garden; a disc in a larger plot. Scatter your seeds where you want them then cover with a dusting of soil and the chopped up weeds.
Remember also that it is a planting, not a burial. In nature, a seed gets planted by just falling on top of the ground, then having the dead vegetation falling over it and rotting. Mother nature plants most seeds in the fall of the year, so winter snows do some of the 'planting' for her and take care of needed stratification for those that need a cold spell to sprout. Seeds do not really *need* to be buried 2" or more with soil. We do it because if we remove dead matter and plant the conventional way, the soil will dry faster, so it needs to be piled up high on top of that poor seed and water to approximate what Mother Nature would have done.
By the way, in doing intensive planting of spinach, you are already seeing to it that there will be not one inch of bare soil, so bravo! That too is one of the goals of no-till: By planting thick you are reducing evapotranspiration in plants and soil, so there will be less of a need to water. Yes, tilling also has that bad effect that bare soil must be watered after all that fluffing up, so reducing the tilling means you have to water less. Win-win-win. When the plants all start to grow in and out of the rows [if you make rows], the soil will be completely shaded, keeping it cooler and your crops healthier, the soil naturally more moist.
Voilà!

Jim Cowger wrote:Nothing special just wanting to start and learn how to do it  ultimately I want to get fruit trees, but gotta figure out how to get the scion wood to start them on.    Just wanting stuff to put in the garden orchard area that will give my family food.  Just looking on idea and what beginners have luck with

A scion has to be grafted, on a stock and you do not use rooting powder to do that. But it sounds like you want to plant lots of stuff without buying individual plants from a nursery. [And frankly, I can't blame you!]
So depending on what you'd like, I'll go from easy to hard, starting in the spring:
1/ the easiest thing to do is to start from a "volunteer". a small white pine, a yearling of an oak, hazelnut, maple, elderberry... Check what grows that you'd like to have in your neck of the woods. I harvested a bunch of maple leaves last fall to mulch my whole garden at least 6"deep, and I think I may have a lot of baby maples coming up this spring to plant in my forest.[The red oaks are all dying of the blight, so this is more for a "replacement forest".].
2/ Assuming that you planted a good apple tree not quite deep enough, [I've done that a lot] you may have a lot of suckers. In the spring, you would have last year's growth sticking out plus some healthy new tissue, like a bud. Cut it as low as possible and see about rooting the whole thing with the rooting hormone, or, if you do not have rooting hormone, chop a willow finely and add water. Wait. [b]You now have "Nature's rooting hormone": The juice[/b] is high in salicylate/ aspirin. that helps rooting.
Next year, you will have a tree you can graft, perhaps even with a scion from the same tree.
3/ We are coming to the cuttings. In late winter when you prune, you can just stick last year's growth in a planter or small bucket with good potting soil. I've rooted a number of black currants I'm looking forward to plant this year. You have a second window of opportunity in the Fall of the year, after the leaves fall off. I have elderberries that I'm planning on: they root very easily if you make sure to keep a bit moist [like any cutting BTW]. I went to the garden and I can see some promising buds looking at me from last year's growth. You may want to make sure it is at least long enough to have a couple of 'nodules' [where the new growth will start from.] Make sure to not plant it upside down!]. Put the bottom nodule underground: You will get roots from that spot. The top bud will grow in a regular plant. If sturdy enough, you can transplant in the Fall or wait until next Spring.
4/ All the brambles will also root easily: I have a bed of raspberries and they did sucker something awful. Since they also had some roots attached, I treated those like a transplant [Cut close to the Mother, even if you must dig a bit to free the roots].
5/ With Spring upon us as we are past mid March in zone 4b, this is the time when you can find some classes on bench grafting. It is not free but it is a lot cheaper than buying a whole new tree. Plus you will gain a lot of knowledge. They will have you buy the stock and the scion and will coach you on how to mate them successfully. It was about $10 for the stock and I can't remember for the scion, but quite affordable.
6/ If you have the acid soil for it and fairly abundant water, you could go for blueberries. The first year, I planted my whole blueberry plant super deep. Like I made a serious mound of soil so that you could only see the tips of the plant. the following year, I was rewarded with 4 sturdy plants that didn't cost me a thing. [Be careful, some plants are patented and you can't do that.]
7/ Unless you bought a grafted grape [which is usually what folks buy], you could also learn to layer your plant. I have a few 'wild' grapes. They will give you quite a pucker, but I don't care: I'm planting them along a fence and I want 'something' to grow there. I think of it as a "sacrificial" plant: Birds will rush to these , while I will cover [and keep] my regular grape. It is good and in accordance with Nature to let the wild critters have some of  the fruit of your labor. I also have wild mulberries [yes, in zone 4b!] in July-August. I won't bother to shoo the birds away: they can have those if I can have the wild cherries [of which they are equally fond!]
8/ All brambles can be layered: After they grow their stem, bend it back to the ground, nick the stem where it goes under the soil. You may need a stone to keep it from springing back up, or a couple of landscape cloth staples.
9/ your County Nursery extension may have some trees [but the choice is limited and you need to buy in quantity [25] sometimes.] They will usually be small and you can plant them with a dibble.
10/ re-reading your post, you seem to be especially on the lookout for scions.  There's an app for that, as they say: https://growingfruit.org/t/scionwood-sources/3346
You may just want to refresh that by googling:
https://www.google.com/search?q=where+to+procure+scions+in+Illinois%3F&oq=where+to+procure+scions+in+Illinois%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l2.9278j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8