Neighborhood dogs can be the worst predators. We use guardian dogs with our goat mob. The bears, mountain lions, and coyotes stay away because of the guardians, but straying dogs have had that wisdom bred out of them and will cause confrontations.
"The map is not the territory", Mollison. ok I'll give myself an eyeroll on that one.
I think the data collected should be be extensive on soil type and climate, rainfall and additives used.
I sometimes have a hard time translating what folks do elsewhere to my place. The current Skeeter video is a good example in that it does not provide enough info for me to emulate what he's doing.
Where is the largest existing permaculture operation? How many permaculture operations currently sell to market on a large scale? What examples are there for a corn/soybean farmer in Kansas to study in order to consider a change? I think Benjamin is on the right track.
By the way, I am a white middle class hippy. (on a 150 acre ranch with 550 goats)
Wyomiles wrote: I cannot prove it but I believe that the aspen and the beaver have coexisted for a long time and I don't think the beaver could ever really get ahead of the trees for very long anyway. So I vote for the beaver.
PeakEverything wrote: Who are "some folks" going to possibly hurt by meddling around on their own property? Only themselves. And more than likely, poor construction will lead to head aches and major repairs, not injury or death.
How about what I just mentioned, by bulldozing a flood control dike that protects my property?
Building roads so poorly designed that the hillside slides and the erosion fills an important wetland that is part of the whole valley's watershed.
Bill Mollison's quote "The map is not the territory" comes into play in that what is done (good or bad) in one area affects the whole.
Also, aren't we all about cutting corners here at permies? How do you build a $5,000 house without cutting corners? Couldn't you define corner cutting as increased efficiency, assuming the end result is just as functional?
I once helped an architect inspect a building in preparation for a lawsuit where the post that was to hold the weight of the second floor roof (10,000 pounds) was to run from the foundation to the peak of the roof, but to save time the contractor left the post out of the space between floors. 10,000 pounds sitting on a plywood subfloor. That would have fallen in on someone. That's why we need codes and inspectors and that's what I was thinking of when I wrote that response.
As I said before, owner/builders aren't usually the problem. I have several different friends that have built straw bale homes in different states and they all had to deal with their local building departments and actually educate them to get their plans approved.
I have approval from the head of my county environmental control to build a solar composting toilet. Not possible by reading the codes but he is interested in the concept and wants me to report back to him.
And why would building codes stop me from building a $5,000 house? Codes don't dictate cost of materials, just safety. On my first adventure in wiring my own home the electrical inspector told me "I'm not responsible for making sure everything works, just that it is safe." I appreciated that.
I have to constantly remind myself to avoid "us against them" thinking because I believe we are them.
That's interesting, an insulated slab should be easy enough for them to figure out. Here where we live you are required to take your plans to the county planning office in the courthouse and get them approved and stamped by their engineer who keeps a copy and then when the inspector code guy comes out he has that copy with him and just makes sure the work has been done as stated on the approved plans.
I think the trouble that owner builders get in to is that we expect to live on our property forever and when circumstances change and we have to sell our property then the codes come in to play. I'm sure the rules and regs are in part due to lawsuits in the past and they are all afraid of lawyers.
My code inspector says that he doesn't worry too much about owner builders because who would want to build something that is going to fall in on them. Mostly its about shady contractors trying to cut corners and make higher profit.
We have a new neighbor who is growing marijuana. He hooked up to our pump and was stealing water and power. The sheriff won't go in without a swat team and it is not a big enough grow to merit a raid as there are so many other much larger illegal grows around. But code enforcement was able to help us because he made an illegal road cut and bulldozed a flood control dike and once all that attention was focused on him he stopped.
I am currently reading Joe Saletin's book, "Everything I want to do is illegal". It is a good read and well written but I still wonder as I read what some folks would try if all codes were done away with.
I could go with only 13 acres but the question my wife and I are asking ourself is: what next! When will they decide they now aren t allowing something or something in the law is changing.... we get the feeling that more bad surprises are going to happen in the future!
The sad thing is these people think they are protecting the environment! It s the same people that make a lot of law to protect agricultural land against development but when you try to make more sustainable agricultural land, they refuse!
Why would there be more surprises? Is there not a publication that you could acquire that would explain all the restrictions on your property?
vicke wrote: So, are you suggesting that sheetrock is the best way to go? No green alternatives?
There really doesn't appear to be anything wonderfully green to replace sheet rock.
I like the look of corrugated galvanized metal roofing on interior walls. It is multifaceted and architecturally pleasing to me. It can be easily recycled compared to sheet rock. Doesn't need painting either! Lightly reflects the color of other things in the room, so easy to decorate with.
An electric metal shear makes it fairly easy to work with. Available at home depot or rental yards. A few screws and some creative trim strips and you're done!
JRTgirl wrote: My garden seems to be in trouble! Two days ago it was beautiful and green. I know it's not heat stress because I have been watering it faithfully. I don't see any bugs on the plants. The problem is all over the garden on all the plants. Even my herbs look sick. Any help would be welcome.
I just had to deal with an infestation of squash bugs. Everything was going great and then suddenly everything is not so good!
OK, I'm going to to say under-fertilized. The plants in the fotos look to me like they are growing slowly. They should be able to outgrow the insect problem.
Try a little liquid organic fertilizer in a couple spots and see what happens.
A thick mulch - 12" - over winter might help your soil's tilth.
Greetings, I don't post here much anymore, but your introduction led me down an interesting path this morning. I don't know much about datacenters, so googled "energy needed to run datacenter" and found this from a Microsoft newsletter.
Mathematically, PUE is straightforward: Divide the total power consumption for the entire facility by the power consumed by the core IT components – the servers and storage and network equipment. A PUE of 1.5, for examples, means that for every 1 watt of server power, another 0.5 watts is used in overhead power. The industry’s goal should be to drive that ratio as close to 1 as possible, Belady said.
“To get there, Microsoft and the industry must peel away the layers of infrastructure surrounding the servers. They are the main driver of a datacenter’s power consumption, which is huge. Some datacenters can drink as much as 50 megawatts – roughly five percent of what a nuclear power plant generates,” Belady said.
A few years ago, he performed an experiment to show it’s possible to run servers without the surrounding datacenter infrastructure (and achieving a PUE of 1.0). He and an engineering colleague put a rack of servers in a tent outside, just behind one of Microsoft’s datacenters. They ran perfectly for seven months. “That’s an example of making the datacenter infrastructure disappear,” he said.
I know its a Microsoft generated news story but I thought it was quite interesting.
So, if my laptop is any example, a data center must generate a lot of heat. If you are in a cool climate you could heat a greenhouse on the roof of the datacenter?
Jesse Chastain wrote: I am new to this site, but I have been going to the OCF my whole life (35 years). I am also pretty new to permaculture, so I am hoping to learn some more about it at the fair. If you know anyone who knows permaculture and is approachable that will be at the fair, I would love to talk to them. I am so excited, I will be there in nine days. Take care and have a great fair, Jesse
Ag Alley is inside Energy Park off to the right. Find the permaculture booth and ask for Rick Valley or Marisha Averbach in the seed exchange booth, both top notch permaculture teachers. I think I'm right that Rick was part of Paul's (this site owner) early permie education. Then there's other booths such as aprovecho, peace seeds, oregon tilth, organic matters, the mycoguild and r-evolution gardens. All there just to share information with folks like you.
The Oregon Country Fair July 8,9,10 Veneta Oregon (15 miles west of Eugene)
The Oregon Country Fair > Energy Park > Ag Alley
The Fair, to me, is so huge and awesome that I can do little justice to it in a few words.
It takes place on 200+ privately owned acres. Imagine a dozen music venues all going at the same time. Outrageous food booths. Marching bands and costumed parades. Barnwood, tye-dye and celebration. Did I say all going on at the same time? All in a late - succession forest on the meandering Long Tom River.
Energy Park and Ag Alley is a small but very popular part of this event. Find us there. edit: We're all about education. There is nothing for sale in Energy Park and Ag Alley.
Marisha Auerbach - The Seed Exchange booth
Rick Valley - The Permaculture booth
Amigo Cantisano - The Organic Matters booth Oregon Tilth Peace Seeds (Alan Kapuler aka Mushroom) Aprovecho The Mycoguild - Paul Stamets usually makes an appearance. R-evolution Gardens - A real working profitable permaculture csa farm from Manzanita Or. Sun Frost refrigerators The Physics Booth - Real scientists talking about energy and the future of energy Sustainable architecture Cargo bicycles Solar, wind, hydro, bio-diesel, PASSIVE ARCHITECTURE Willamette Farm and Food Coalition Did I mention FUN? Lots of it! And as someone usually says, much much more. I am the booth coordinator for all this. Contact me for more info about booths (for next year) Gary Gregory firstname.lastname@example.org Go here: www.oregoncountryfair.org/ for info about the larger part of the fair, directions, tickets (all pre- purchased)
It's been weird how there are so many people that seem to groove on my arrogance and obnoxiousness.
wow! Yes, I agree. And what a huge responsibility it becomes to keep them happy and still wield your sword of banishment in a way that does not eliminate the ones whose hunches could complete the virtual paradise you seek.
Jocelyn Campbell wrote: I'm going to quote someone who used to be more active on these forums who wrote to me something I thought was brilliant about biodynamic methods and folklore versus science:
Now we're getting somewhere. Those observations you quoted are the basis for what we do. Observing,trial and error, etc. Lots of folklore and "old wives tales" is spot on and I do a lot of it in my life. I think we are all quite capable of figuring out what works for ourselves.
IF, by chance, someone wanted to find out which microbes,chemical reactions,ect,etc,etc, went on inside that horn to create all that wonderfulness they could do a scientific study to TRY to find out more about the process.
Large corporations use the word "SCIENCE" like a big flyswatter to quash questions and suggestions so they can control their market share. That is not science but greed and has caused a lot of disrespect for the scientific community.
The article I quoted is a good example of science for the sake of discovery and nothing else. What some corporation or other entity does with that information might not be truly science.
What I can say as ABSOLUTE TRUTH is that I will spend part of the day in our garden sitting on my comfortable garden bench with Van Morrison turned up as loud as possible.
I think you could solve a lot of your problems by bringing back Emerson and starting a forum titled "Go debate it with Emerson and leave the rest of the forums alone!"
Seriously, I don't go to any other sites. This is the only one I have ever actively participated in.
Why would I want to spend a lot of time here with the idea to learn more and to help others learn more and then go searching for some other site to have a discussion about the validity of science with someone when that someone is right here?
wildeyes wrote: Whoa now! This just claims that 3.8 billion years ago microbes were seeded to earth via comets, asteroids and all that other space-flying jazz. That doesn't mean human life is from outer space. I mean, it's not like 3.8 billion years on this planet didn't lead to some earth-specific adaptations. Whatever.
Anthropocentrism ruins our ability to think and think clearly.
Actually I was, in jest, claiming the opposite. I don't believe that humans or this planet or this galaxy is the center of anything. As far as we humans have been able to observe and theorize, the universe may not have a center.
The fact that we all don´t have the same abilities is very important. People need diversity inside species. That´s why it is very beneficial for us to work and cooperate together, with all possible approaches and diverse people, that´s why haughitness should not have its place in permaculture. Permaculture should be always about sharing, implementing new ideas, discussion, trying, open-mindedness etc. It is not only gardening , it is not only “quality of human life”, it is not rigid, it has also its complex, very important overlap, only with that it could be really sustainable. Otherwise, Without it, it would bring same mistakes as industrial revolution – together with rigid science - did.
Please define what you mean by "rigid science" and "same mistakes as industrial revolution"
We're all talking about the quality of human life here. The planet earth doesn't care whether we humans "save" it or not!
The word 'science' is used way too broadly to define things not even measured scientifically.
paul wheaton wrote:
Steiner may be a kook, but a lot of steiners kooky stuff is turning out to be rather brilliant. A hundred years from now, we might have figured out that 63% was brilliant and 22% was kind kooky and 15% was way off.
Why should folks a hundred years from now get all the fun?
From the perspective of a lot of scientists, all of permaculture is just a bunch of kooky hippie fantasy talk.
I believe that the permaculture that I do is based on science.
paul wheaton wrote: All of the biodynamic folks I have met have been very accepting of permaculture techniques and of permaculturalists.
The only hostility I have seen has been permaculture folk being hostile to biodynamic folks that think biodynamic is too woo woo: "HEY! What you're doing is STUPID!" and I have seen permaculture folk being hostile to other permaculture folk: "Hey! You didn't sing the permaculture song MY WAY so you can't call what you do permaculture!" I don't like this kind of hostility at all.
I like the idea of having a farm right next door to a biodynamic farm and seeing the practices that go on next door and how it works for them. I would like to be next door to Brian Kerkvliet or Jacqueline Freeman. I'm sure I will learn a great deal.
I like the idea that there is a spiritual element to what they do. It could turn out to be that they are right.
As for the tone of science on this site. For every moment I see of what I think of as "good science", I have seen two where science was used as an inappropriate weapon. And I have probably only deleted about half of it.
Frankly, maybe the site could use a healthy dose of woo woo to help set a better pace and I should ban more of the science-as-weapon folks.
Let us briefly examine an example of the strong form of the thesis that metaphysics is impossible. The logical positivists maintained that the meaning of a (non-analytic) statement consisted entirely in the predictions it made about possible experience. They maintained, further, that metaphysical statements (which were obviously not put forward as analytic truths) made no predictions about experience. Therefore, they concluded, metaphysical statements are meaningless—or, better, the ‘statements’ we classify as metaphysical are not really statements at all: they are things that look like statements but aren't, rather as mannequins are things that look like human beings but aren't.
I think a lot of biodynamic stuff works, but probably not for the reasons it's practitioners think it does. I think it would be a very productive area to attempt to figure out which aspects work, and why, and embrace those aspects as part of the 'permaculture toolkit'. I suspect a lot of the reason it works is because you get to spend a lot of time communing with nature and planning out when you are going to do stuff, so you bond with the land, observe what's going on a lot more, and when you follow a plan you actually get round to doing it rather than putting it off.
I agree completely with Burra.
Learning more about something and deciding I don't want to do it is still learning. The metaphysical part is something I've never looked into until I googled the above quote. Burying a cow horn filled with quartz for a year and then spreading it over a field is ...interesting.
Emerson White wrote: I used to love photoshop 3, now I have CS5 and I can barely use it. Basically all I can figure out how to do anymore is crop and rotate photos, color balance, or make things incredibly creepy.
Wow- Xray vision without the xray goggles you order online!!!