El Hierro,
That's indeed a rock(ing. ) slice of paradise.
Much too long since I have been there last!
Thank you for the delightful reminder!

Do you have a photo -or better a few!- to feed the imagination of
those who haven't seen you or your paradise live, yet?
Hungry,

Gioia.

Hi,

Do you own the property & have a space to share?
Or are you doing guerilla gardening?
Is there any accommodation in place?

Can you give some more information about the property you are looking at?

Wetland - hmm - How high above sea level? - How is the profile of the property?
- What is growing there currently? How has the land been used priorly?
- Where exactly? Can you link to google maps?
- Is subdivision possible? - or how many habitations are allowed to be built on this land?
- Would it be a land trust? .....

Lots of questions to be answered...

Hi Danny,

I have bee drooling over land & old farm houses in (Western) Hungary for some time,
I am originally from Germany but was kinda 'nailed down' in the US for the past ten years.
The concern I couldn't get over was the language barrier.
Although I speak several European languages more or less fluently,
they are all of Romanic and Germanic origin, - no Eastern European language skills here,
and the Finno-Urgian Hungarian would really be the last I'd ever dare to set out to learn...

This seems to me a serious barrier to what I feel is crucial to self sufficient and sustainable living off the land:
healthy tight-knit neighborhood- & village-like connections with local people...
- What do you do about this? - Originally from Holland, Hungarian must be very very strange for you, too,
- or do you have Eastern European roots / parents... ?? ?

Your facebook links both don't work for me either.
This is what I see upon clicking on them:

>> This content is currently unavailable

>> The page you requested cannot be displayed right now.
>> It may be temporarily unavailable, the link you clicked on may have expired,
>> or you may not have permission to view this page.

>> Return home

Take care!

Gioia.

Wow, Joe, you nailed this one pretty well!
I stumbled over the same issue with what I deem to be the same community,
(I really hope there are not several ICs around who are as brazenly looking to openly enslave other humans
as this bunch of life-juice sucking would-be 'alternatives'.)

Although I think it doesn't have much to do with this great and inspiring introvert in community question,
- other than that a rather shy (notably not equal to introvert) person might be
more endangered to fall for this kind of outrageous exploitation.

But I really think it is important to expose such dreadful examples,
and encourage fellow permies not to allow this abominable kind of worst practice
to suck on them or become more frequent.

You are right, Rebecca,
Cats naturally love to scratch and make sure to cover up any smell before they leave the place.
We have also had cats for all of my life, and tried all of your mentioned methods - and then some..

Sawdust in Cardboard box works, pelleted sawdust* or shredded corncob crumbs work even better,
- in terms of dusting & tracking a little less. (A friend had constructed a pellet press for his stove..)
And, with a little added baking soda, they both do a halfway decent job in inhibiting smell.
However, like Sheri said, since it doesn't clump, you always have to scoop out a lot each time,
and empty the whole amount out every few days, which is using A LOT of said material,
and the tracking inside a house is still quite an annoyance.

Newspaper in a box is very beloved by cats. (Just try letting a cardboard box with your recycling-bound papers
sit around for a minute or even just a half without looking before bringing them out... - They'll be in there faster than you can look!)
But still, that creates a LOT of waste, since you have to throw out everything every time, - with NO smell inhibition whatsoever.
Sand, while cheap in some areas (we'd have to haul it from the beach ten miles away or buy it in the store..)
is in this regard not much different. Since it doesn't clump, but on the contrary drains especially well,
it soaks very quickly all the way through, - when you have cardboard underneath, saturating the cardboard before wetting the floor..,
if you have it in a plastic box, forming a lake at the bottom.. - and thus has to be exchanged completely, almost every time,
- all while providing very little smell inhibition.

With that, all of these methods have their challenges which, with more than two cats, over time, are rather tough to brave.

This led us to the entire elimination of the litter, eventually. Which, as said, works well for us with no sustained costs and minimal time effort.
The cats might need to be younger to accept the change well (like with most any other change to their routine, - they really cherish their habits).

But when they accept it, they seem pretty happy with it. We tried a box with their old corncob litter again when we had to leave for three days,
and more than half of the cats still preferred their empty box/bathtub they had meanwhile gotten used to.
They do scratch on the sides of the empty boxes or in the tub, but are ok with the result, since - I made it a point to clean up right after them,
whenever I heard them scratching, and caress them whenever I saw them going in there.
(Which - due to the incomparably greater effort rquired, I hadn't done with the litter in the box.)
They seem to have understood, that this way they have a clean space to go every time they need to, and they very evidently do appreciate that.

Sheri, while I don't know about Bokashi, you can certainly compost cat manure. (That's what happens with outside cats' droppings anyway.)
Cats feces are already far more "composted" than raw meat, and not subject to putrefaction anymore.

We use a water flushed composting toilet for humanure. (The toilet pipes run through a simple strainer basket outside, and the runoff is sent through
contained blackwater planters and the already very clean runoff of that thereafter into a leach field. The output of the leach field far surpasses
the very stringent quality requirements for swimming lakes in Germany). The fermentation of the solids in the strainer basket (in a chamber under the soil)
can be aerobic with vent pipe up to the roof and thus completely smell-free.
Or it can be done anaerobically in a airtight tank, with the methane gas from the fermentation made available for cooking...
The humanure solids composted in this manner take about two years to decompose into a rich inert soil, which can be used in the gardening.
(The strainer basket is separated in half vertically, and turned around 90 degrees, when one side is full after one year,
so that the fermentation can complete for one year without added new material.)

We flush the cat feces into that system, too, and they decompose with the humanure.
But, since, with litter free box method, the cats usually use different boxes for wet and dry business,
you can easily just throw the solids, which are nicely separated from the liquids that way, down any compost toilet
(or just dig it somewhere under the surface of your compost heap, or even a specially assigned compost heap, if you wish)
and treat the liquids as you do yours or thin them down for use as highly efficient free N-fertilizer,
(that does not, like straight cat pepee, burn the plants and soil life).


To the food question, - Cats are - due to the very different make up of their intestinal tract
(very short and smooth, with little surface for flora to adhere to minimize putrefaction of meats) -
meat eaters by nature. And trying to force a vegetarian or mainly vegetarian diet upon them,
that would be ok and healthy for humans (with our long rough and extremely folded intestines
which relay on nurturing a rich intestinal flora to break down herbal material), would NOT be healthy nor natural for a cat.
Especially grains and pulses (legumes like beans) the overeating of which already produces enough problems in people,
is anything else than natural, let alone healthy, for cats (Imagine a cat harvesting grains or cooking beans!... -
(The fresh beans would anyway kill her before she could make it a habit..))
Of course, if your cats still get their main sustenance from hunting for mice, they might survive that kind of vegetarian supplement,
but it is not healthier or more natural for them to eat than a highly processed mainly flour & starch &/or sugar based diet for humans,
- with a very similar poor long term outlook.

Fish is good, - as long as it is the kind of fish would be able to catch themselves.
Big ocean fish on the contrary who are far higher on the food chain do, due to the large amounts of
heavy metals and other toxins they accumulate in their tissues, have a very detrimental long term effect on cats.
Cats also do need to eat WHOLE fish, since they depend on the minerals from fish bones, the vitamins and minerals
as wel as secondary micro-nutrients from organs and blood.
A neighbor fed his cats almost exclusively tuna cans, and all of his cats died within one year on the diet.
(They were all adult when he got them. And he got each one the after the death of another.)
(He finally switched to giblets, sardines, salmon, tilapia & beef heart, the last cat became 18 years old and is still strong.)
(While sardines, salmons, chickens & cow organs are not the most natural prey for house cats either,
the more varied mix seems to at least provide what the cat needs to live a long life.)

As to milk and cream, - Almost ALL cats are highly lactose intolerant after weaning time
(They just don't ever get to milk a cow or goat or sheep in Nature..),
and the resulting bloating and often violent diarrhea dairy consume causes them, is painful
and not a particular act of love to provide them with.
Water is really best for them.
(Since cats on a natural diet get about 80% of their water needs from the meat they consume,
they need a lot more than feral cats, once you feed them things that differ from their natural diet/ are not meat.)

All the best!

Gioia.

Hi Sheri,

I realize that this post is a little older, and you might already have found the ultimate solution.
- If so, - please advise: ) !

Just to add my 5 cents, - We currently have 8 cats.
Only the first of them came to us intentionally, when her old owner wanted to euthanize her
because of a sudden pee-&-poo-everywhere problem... when the old owner adopted another (very bossy male) cat.
Long story short, the issue got eventually resolved, she used a regular litter pan, and she never had a flashback since..

The other two cats were strays from the neighborhood, whom we intended to "neuter and release", but who instead decided
to stay with us more or less closely. (- One of them turned out to be already pregnant when we wanted to neuter her,
so she had her 5 kittens in our house before we got her and them fixed)

One of the two is living mainly outside, mostly coming in for food only, or a little warmth in winter.. She uses litter boxes
(with or without litter) when necessary, but prefers to do her buisiness outside.

The Mama cat still likes to go outside to relieve herself, - but only for that. - She never wants to stay outside for more than a few minutes.
All the young ones are living indoors full time, as well as our oldest cat.

Latest with this many cats, we needed to find a solution to the litter question.
We tried to train them to use the toilet, and while that has not had significant success with the toilet itself,
(although they are still very interested in figuring out what that thing is good for) the trial got all cats in our house trained
to use empty litter boxes or the bath tub. Most are using the bath tub to pee, - since this allowed them to develop a technique to keep their feet dry, -
and small boxes without litter, in the corner beside the toilet, for the poo. They especially like a paint pan,
the slant of which also allows to keep paws dry, if a cat prefers the box over the tub.
Even our oldest cat, the one who had the litter box issues, has accepted the paint pan
(however, in her old litter pans location, - not in the bathroom).

The neat thing about the litter free boxes is, that you can effortlessly collect the pure urine, if you want, for diluted use as a fertilizer,
or just dump it in the toilet right beside the box, flush the light little box under the faucet for a few seconds, and you're good to go,
without litter tracks, or costs, or hauling or shoveling…
If you don't care for collecting urine for fertilizer, the bathtub is not too bad either. (If we had a shower, I would prefer that,
and install a little faucet with infrared sensor at cat height, which flushed shortly after the cat left the tub.
That would be the most perfect solution. …As soon as we own our own place, that's on the list….)

We do have several little boxes beside the toilet, since, without litter, they don't like to go in a spot
where another has already relieved herself.. We are usually emptying the boxes out as soon as they have been used.
(This is not too much of a challenge since most of it happens very timely after feeding them in the morning and evening,
times when we are in or near the bathroom anyway..)

The one thing that could be considered a downside of this solution is, the smell coverage.
In our case, it actually helps with keeping the boxes clean at all times, - right after they go. -
The act of cleaning them is really so negligible and swift this way, that I don't mind it at all, - as opposed to
having to scoop & refill the box, dispose of the stuff in my garbage, and vacuuming litter tracks all day long…
...and still feeling little stones, or sawdust, or mulch-pieces under my feet all he time...
(- But an automatic flush at cat height in a shower tub would certainly take this all to yet another level entirely." ) -

Blessings,


Gioia.

You sound adorably awesome!
If I wasn't so scared of the winters in Montana,
I'd feel intrigued to apply for the assistant criminal position." )

Do you maybe have some pictures for the more cold-hardy
among us?

Blessings!

Gioia.

Thank you for the excellent introduction to your ideas!
Very interesting and well made workbook!
I especially like the matrix tying the whole concept together
into something logically derivable.

I am sorry I can't make it to your workshop,
but will certainly read through your book
and try if I can recognize it in and apply to our reality.

Thanks again for making this thought provoking resource available.

Best wishes for your courses!

Gioia.

Hey Ryan,

What an enticing description!
Do you have any pictures of yourself and your paradise?

Warm wishes!

Gioia.

Ciao Flora,

Are you still looking for that help?

We were very involved here in Southern New England in the last few months,
and I haven't looked on here for quite some time.
...yet I felt as if we might be looking for each other." )

I grew up half of my childhood on a homestead/ fattoria biologica & vigneto di famiglia/ podere restaurato
of my grandma/ Nonna near Pistoia.

Later I studied biological agriculture and oenology/ "vineyard & wine sciences", horticulture & (agri)tourism, (M.A.) in Heilbronn, Germany,
San Michele, Alto Adige, and Bordeaux, France; (as well as Herbalism, plus some Restoration & Art History..)
worked as a consultant, among others for a small upscale organic winery on an old Medici estate north of Florence;
and studied permaculture design & implementation under Sepp Holzer and Geoff Lawton, as well as
woofing for inspiring examples from around the world .

I also studied sustainable building techniques & "technologies" in theory and practice.

In the last few years I have consulted cool climate wineries, small scale organic farms and conjoint bed & breakfast operations
in New England and surrounding states as well as the pacific north west. (Partly very similar climate to Northern Italy
and similar soil structure to the foothills of the Apennines..)
..on the implementation of permaculture design & principles into running endeavors as well as to transform maggese into food forests..

I'd be interested in returning home for the right project!

My hopes for the near future are to get involved in a permacultural eco-socio project, that will
afford a long-term home(stead) for my family. Any project that can bring us closer to this end is exciting to consider.

If any of this sounds appealing and fitting to you,
I'm excited to hear back: ) !


Gioia.

This house in Pembrokeshire, Wales
http://naturalhomes.org/save-charlies-house.htm

(- yes, right next door to the eco village Lammas (http://lammas.org.uk/)
and very akin to Simon Savilles house (http://www.beingsomewhere.net/index.htm and http://tinyhouseblog.com/earthcob/simonshouse/) -)..
..and its builders need y/our support!

http://naturalhomes.org/save-charlies-house.htm

Please consider signing their petition to their home county's council!

The world needs more houses like this and families like this
to raise children with a mindset that can heal rather than destroy our planet!


Gioia.

Nice idea! Thought about it, too.

So where is your OkCupid profile, James?


Gioia.


-> BJoyia

Hi James,

sounds intriguing, your wooded dream: ) -
Are only the lake and trail state property or the whole 50 acres?
Are you planning on building a permanent home there at some point?

As Mar asked, - where exactly are you?
And - how old are you?
- Do you have a photo?

I have among other things studied wine growing and making
but in the last few years been doing more consulting on this than my own "real" thing
I have posted under community, too (with pics; ) - you can find those by clicking on my name if you like.

Best to you!


Gioia.

...

Me?

...Out of the endless story of passions: ..dining (- timeless, tasty, tremendously fun... -), drinking (- saltwater kisses, vital spirit, sparkling water & fine wine.. -), dreaming
(- in the quaintest little B&B in the world or with the smoke of a bonfire in our hair in the morning, - yet only with the loveliest cuddly-animal alive... - could it be you eventually?? -),
communication (- talking, talking, laughing, talking, snorting, bursting, drowning, ..savoring life and arts, and music... -), singing, dancing (- from Rock 'n' Roll to Merengue -
best of all with our feet in the sand -), salty wind, spraying sea and sun-flooded skies... - to be found everywhere, if you dare... just to fly high enough.., - s...

Savoring life, living now, and enjoying the moment. Yet loving to make new plans - and see them through.

I love doing things with my hands..& soul - restoring old furniture...or houses, or building new ones and all kinds of accompanying vital structures; making (unbelievably healthy,..
..yet; ) - compellingly sensuous soul food*...or wine; digging in the dirt to hearten the veggies...or groom the micro herd... or to make sheep's or goat's cheese; touching skin
..to give reiki.....or what do you prefer ?.. -

*give me a tasty example - and I'll make it.. - up to your taste buds (..or other nerve endings. ') - promised.



You:

...You are neither seeking blond, bl..., blue-eyed, - nor easy-care dumb or made of crease-resistant poly-vinyl (- also available as dress-up-doll labeled "Barbie" -)
but the - from inside at least as beautiful and genuine as from outside - passionate woman with the extra-portion heart, healthy brain & humor, ..who won't try to push you into shape
to fit into her comfort zone, but will stretch out, bribe & bewitch you to take a chance on that magic sacrifice which makes the team work and can afford anything what money just can't buy...
and who, when you dare to listen to the chime and follow that beacon, is gonna lend you her storm-provenst pair of wings, for the adventure-trip to the pinkest cloud No 9 under heaven,
to taste the enrapturing view on the chocolate-side of life! -

....You are not afraid of living life live instead of TV, laughing about nothing, learning without cease, loving without reserve, the affection of irresistibly lovable kids (6 1/2, 4 3/4, & 3),
and cats (8, 2 1/4, 1/3), who wouldn't mind some further family additions at all; ) -

...You are interested in practical permaculture, looking for someone to (self-)build and or maintain and grow.. a naturally sustainable, self-sufficient home & livelihood & life with.
(In this case, you may as well skip the rest of this profile and nice communication and write back with subject "Let's roll up the sleeves." ) ! -

...Your heart skipped a few beats upon racing through the above and you are into natural solutions for well-being." ) -
- ..opt for the "Message" button (- instead of a beta-blocker or a late-night-coffee followed by a 'blue dream-pill.' ) - !

- ...So, YOU a r e my gorgeous Adonis with zest for life, love, experiences that get under your skin and all those extraordinarily beautiful things, people and places... for
living, laughing, making love...!? - ...the kind that keeps us rocking through the rocking chair years... ! !Let me know - and let us... - make'em turn their heads!!



Us...

!enjoying,...exploring,...sharing,...growing,... permaculture(d) love & passion & spirituality & unconditional loyalty towards each other & delight in us and the world around us.

Hello Casey!

What you have to say is inspiring!

I sure would love to see your pictures: )

Gioia.

Hi John,

We are at the moment in New England,
but open to move anywhere with a somewhat moderate climate/ not too long & harsh winters.

- Not even limited to the USA.
New Zealand or Europe would be just as fine,
for the right fit.

Thank you for asking!

Gioia.

and more midgets." )

"My" midgets

....for the right sustainable permaculture-/ farm-/ earth-care setting.


I am interested in long-term future-, community-, security-, freedom- & equity building working partnership
in form of pay by shares + board & lodge, or work-to-own & preserve property &/or business…

I love doing things with my hands...& soul - restoring old furniture…or houses, or building new ones
and all kinds of accompanying vital structures; making (unbelievably healthy, yet; ) - compellingly sensuous soul food*...or wine;
digging in the dirt to enliven the soil, plant trees and hearten the veggies...or to make sheep's or goat's cheese;
creating arts and crafts of all kind, making music, or giving reiki, - or what would you like to have done?

(*give me a tasty example - from raw to rustic or nouvelle cuisine - and I'll make it..
- up to your taste buds, promised.-)

…Besides being a Mom (of three marvelous midgets so far) - alas, no Dad involved; - I am
- a passionate homesteader, gardener & seed saver, care taker (of creation in distress: earth, waters & air,
plants, animals & people, arts, wisdom & spirit…) temporarily displaced in a University environment.
- A Naturopathic Practitioner (- certified "Heilpraktiker", (equivalent to N.M.D.), re-certified in the US to
M.S. Health Sciences (Nutrition & Botanical Medicine) & Master Herbalist (M.H.));
…working to make others feel better, & on my US-Doctorate.

I have been trained in Rural Ecotrophology (similar to Home Economics & Family Studies in the US)
with major in Small Scale (Agro-)Business Management, Nutrition and Hospitality. This dual system apprenticeship
(business school + training on the job) included Dietetics, Innkeeping, Gardening, Life stock management,
but also training in technical aspects of (where possible, self sufficient) Property management, including
Carpentry (Timber Framing, Flooring, Cabinetry) as well as Architectural History and Restoration.

I then studied Business Administration & Sustainable (Agri-)Tourism, (B.A.) as well as Agricultural Science/Oenology
(Viticulture & Wine making) (B.A.) and Int. Business Management & Marketing (M.A.). With that I've been working
for environmentally minded start-ups to dream up sustainably vital solutions for visionary people and our planet..
in order to provide for life while finally studying Naturopathic Medicine in Germany and then re-certifying in the US.
- Life's ways are intricate...

Why all this?? - To follow that Big all-encompassing Dream of helping to heal our planet and supporting life around us,
while keeping ourselves alive, sustainably and self-sufficiently, - in hope to help create a self-supporting enduring village (perma)culture
with a joyful community of like-minded folks. ……So, - nothing special on a permie forum. )

We have no short-term cash to bring to the table, (although medium term capital available),
Yet, - the incontestable ability to work wonders and create invaluable integral riches in the right setting.

So now, we are looking for YOU: - with similar goals and skills to support or complement ours,
- with land, living space and excess existing work or plans in need of help, and dreams to share
- with a need for convergent handy, hands-on support, from a young loving, fit, & openhearted, family
just like us..

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/157/880/275/?z00m=20605431

Klick this link and register your signature to help the Environmental Protection Agency
stand up against the DOW's lobbying with the coal mining industry!

Kentucky's Division of Water wants to weaken the Clean Water Act to support the coal mining industry
by allowing even more selenium pollution in Appalachian streams and rivers....and up the food chain...

If you love and care about life in Appalachia, sign here:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/157/880/275/?z00m=20605431

~.

Hi Greta,

Yes, the company I posted the link to uses either lift-out basket type strainers,
or alternatively they offer "Rottesaecke" (= sturdy and durable non rotting permeable bags - see picture),
- which might make it significantly lighter to lift the ready processed compost out and carry it around the garden.-
They also offer them custom made for existing systems, too (why not for composting toilets ?).
- I'm sure you could easily make such yourself, too, if you found an appropriate fabric.

Of course you can flush the toilets with any water, - grey- or rain- or even drinking water if you have no limited supply,
as it sounds in your case: ) -

In one house we worked at, we put the existing grey-water drain from shower, and bathroom sinks
(kitchen drains always went through the black-water processing, because of the oils they may contain)
through an outdoor grey-water planter on the south side of the house, which wouldn't freeze,
- but that was in an area where it rarely gets under freezing temperatures and virtually never for long times.

In another house it was decided to put a green house addition on the side of the house to put the grey-water planters in,
which would provide a large part of the home's food year round - like an "earthship" system retrofitted onto a "regular" timber frame house.

But if you have no shortage of water, and are in no need to re-cyle water four times, before it leaves the property,
it might make most sense for you to just use rain or drinking water for toilet flushing, as you probably do anyway, and recycle all once more for watering the garden...
(If your property is large enough, you probably don't encounter the case of having too much grey-water for watering, either -?)

If you think it's easier for you to convert from flush toilets to manually taking out manure from a collecting bin under the toilet
instead of putting the strainer/solid collector outside in or above the ground, strainers in that compost toilet could sure make separating liquids easier
(whereas the liquids would most likely not be pure urine).
For me personally a lot of the beauty of the strainer system was in that it combined the "neatness" and convenience of a water flushed toilet
with all the environmental and self-sufficiency benefits of a composting toilet, without ever having to touch anything but the ready compost.

Without taking the septic tanks out or having to convert them, you could also just put a separate - even self-made - container with strainer or strainer-bag
outside and T-off the sewage pipe to connect with that. (Just thinking as I am visualizing your description..)

All the best,

Gioia.

Hello Greta,

Ja, ich spreche Deutsch: ) - aber woher kannst Du so gut Deutsch? -
The system as a whole, - and in particular the black water treatment in planted beds and final "polishing pond" - is indeed similar to what many city works do:
It uses water flushing toilets (which employ preferably pre- processed greywater), and leaves the house through the existing sewage pipes,

- with the difference, that the solid separation phase is not an anaerobic sedimenter/digester/decanter / or a septic tank on a private property, respectively,
(which produce a fairly toxic sewage sludge to be pumped out periodically and dealt with as special refuse / hazardous waste), - but..

...in this system the solid separation takes place aerobically in what is basically a strainer, holding back what you would collect in a composting toilet,
(just - as opposed to that - without the need to manually empty out bins, as the compost material is collected right where it is going to be composted).

The watery phase, that is in excess in this process, is being fed via gravity or a pump either directly onto the planted purification beds
or collected in an intermediary container to be emptied out periodically in gushes, controlled via mechanical or digital-electrical valve.

So, if you don't want to "waste" urine onto the black water planters, you could use two different toilets for different purposes:
-> one set up like a composting toilet with just a local collector solely for the liquid nitrogen concentrate,
(or even peripherally outside the house by T-ing off the sewage pipes from one existing toilet to empty into a separate receptacle or tank, wherever you need them);
-> and one (for solids or mixes) connected to your old sewage pipes, which you connect (in place of the septic tanks) with the composting "strainer",
the liquid effluent of which is connected (with or without intermediate collection receptacle) to a black water purification plant bed
(- basically just a shallow pond with pond liner, filled with some high-surface drainage, topped with soil and planted -)
and that again with an overflow, either into the landscape or - ideally - into a "polishing pond" and from there wherever you want.

The great difference between this system and the septic tank solution is the replacement of anaerobically produced toxic sludge waste
with aerobically composted naturally ripened "perfect" humus to be emptied out only every two years by You instead of a contractor,
as a relatively modest bucket full of quality fertilizer with the consistency and smell of fresh woodland soil.

The great advantage over the average dry compost-toilet is evidently the eliminated necessity to handle or otherwise deal with or care about
any human wastes before they are completely composed and ready to be harvested as fertilizer.

[Not knowing ASPI and their chosen system and not knowing if I understood you right, I'd say:
The difference between the above described system and a completely "open" blackwater processing directly on planted beds, without prior solid separation is
the hygienic factor, which makes this latter approach from an epidemic as well as environmental safety standpoint plain unacceptable.

A blackwater processing without prior solid separation on uncontained wetlands (instead of contained planters) would in my understanding be flat out
environmentally criminal.]

Hearing about your particular situation, it sems that this kind of replacing a septic tank by a strainer-compost box - and maybe an extra urine collector -
would allow you to leave all installations (and convenient routines) in place and still fulfill your wish of getting rid of the cumbersome and not-so-sustainable septic tanks.
- And that all with minimal financial input. (As said, we created something like this -except for the pond liner- from scrap materials and it just works...

...and produces great amounts of organic material which we used as building material (reeds) and to build fertility - from the black water alone without the solids).

Anyhow, I would love to hear what you think and in the end decide for!

Best, Gioia.

Hello Greta! I have just come across your posts and love what I read; - so much so, that I had to read on,... and on...everything you posted:" ) -

Having helped build some sustainable homesteads with alternative building techniques, (among them an earth ship), as well as
done a lot of restoration with environmental retrofitting - all of them with with extensive water- and resource recycling,
I found, after all personal experience with compost toilets as well as black water plant beds with prepended 3-chamber separator/digester/decanter tanks,
that, with the abundant amount of free water available - even in arid areas - through good water management and recycling,
the only remaining compelling argument for dry composting toilets over grey-water toilets with treatment in black water planters
was the need to have sedimentation tanks emptied out periodically by a contractor, - which would so totally not fit in with the aim for self-sufficiency.

So I kept searching for an alternative that would combine "the best of all worlds": - the ease and convenience of a (grey-)water flushed toilet
which could use ubiquitously existing toilet and sewer pipe installations, plus "living machine" black water treatment in planted beds,
with the simplicity, ecology, sustainability and self-sufficiency of a composting system for the residues of human manure.
I finally found the perfect, most simple, hygienic, and virtually maintenance-free solution here:
http://www.mangro.net/cms/de/53/Rotteanlagen.

The manufacturer of these rotting devices is a German company, who specializes in small to medium scale sewage treatment,
especially with planted black-water clearing beds. There seems to be no translation on their web site, but the essence of what it says is this:


Rotting units
- the sensible alternative

Instead of an anaerobic three-chamber digester/decanter tank, these rotting units use an aerobic two chamber strainer,
which acts as a separator for solids too, but also as an integrated composting bin with plenty of oxygen,
- without any additional technical or energetic input - while eliminating the costly need to have sediments pumped out .

While one chamber is being filled for about a year, the material can complete its two year composting cycle in the other chamber.
The fluid phase drips out and is being directed via pipes into the planted black water bed.
Thereby, the black water remains in an oxygen-rich state (4-6 mg/l O2), which enhances the cleaning action of the planted black water beds
and also inhibits the development of undesirable odors.

Because it is a closed system, this procedure is - contrary to complete sewage processing on reed beds -
hygienically unobjectionable. (Actually, the output after the post-treatment of the liquid phase
in planted backwater beds easily meets and often far surpasses the stringent requirements for swimming lakes.)

With gravity feed pipes or a solar pump the operating costs are virtually zero; and
apart from taking out a small amount of ripe compost once every two years, this system is virtually maintenance free.
The ready processed compost has the consistency and smell of fresh woodland soil and can be used as
an instant high quality fertilizer in landscaping,

Compost sacks

The container model, employs sturdy, non-rotting compost sacks.
The manufacturer can also supply custom made sacks according to your specifications for existing units.


Further pictures are here:
http://www.mangro.net/cms/de/20/Verfahrenstechnik-von-Pflanzenklaeranlagen

or from different sources here:
http://www.bio-system.de/pflanzenklaeranlage.htm

and here:
http://www.janbecks.de/bilder/oeko/oe_abwasser_01gr.jpg


Something like this can relatively easily be self-built and installed. The essentials are just an enclosure such as a concrete pit/cistern
with two perforated inserts, hanging above or standing on a filter medium (such as scoria,..) above the floor of the enclosure.
This could relatively easily be improvised such as with a discarded laundry machine.... or any other perforated container...

This rotting double-chamber is connected near the top to an incoming sewage pipe which can be moved between the two inserts.
the outlet needs to be on the bottom, and can either be realized simply as a pipe with continuous flow into the planter beds,
or - a little more elaborate for better efficiency - a pipe into an intermediate fluid collection container, which is being emptied periodically,
controlled e.g. by a siphon with swimmer, and gravity fed into lower black water plant beds, - or by a (mechanically triggered) (solar) pump.

In equation of efficiency, hygienic aspects, comfortability, low to no maintenance requirements, and environmental impact,
this kind of solution for human manure treatment is from my experience simply unsurpassed - perfect permaculture design.

(- No, I have no affiliation to any of the manufacturers of this kind of systems: ) -

If you think it's not for you, - maybe it still gives you some fresh ideas...


Blessings to you!