I also wanted to add that I think the permaculture aficionado is one of the most accepting of neurodiversity in society. I think it needs to go a long way in regards to other types of diversity, however.

The attitude of people who are attracted to permaculture works well with people who want to do things their own way or with people who HAVE TO do things their own way. I don't really see communication as an issue unless one is choosing to live intimately with a community. Even neurotypicals are challenged by that. Which makes me wonder if it isn't the definition of community which we should be talking about? How far does community have to reach into personal lives? What are its boundaries?

I, for one, am all about mutual aid. That's as much community as is necessary. We can help each other out without having to "get" each other fully. This way I am, it's just my way, and I don't need to communicate it any further than that.

Great post, Tyler!

I think you've hit on what is the crux of the problem and why permaculture doesn't really take off -- so much focus is spent on the establishment of perennial food sources, yet the fact that the average consumer has no idea what perennials are or how they can use them is unaddressed. I mean, it's fine for the homesteader who can experiment, but if the aim is to scale up so the whole world eats more sustainably, then it is a big fail.

I'm stuck in the city right now and there are very few perennials available, and I live in an area where farm to table is very much the focus and in vogue. So even though I have every desire to eat perennials I, too, don't have the access or exposure. The only perennials I have really eaten have been while living and traveling abroad in cultures where foraging is not such a distant memory, and even with that they have different names and connecting the dots or knowing if they grow in the local zones is a doctoral thesis. I'm especially challenged because I have to eat a low carb high fat diet for my health (blood sugar regulation and seizure prevention) and my sympathies are to be fully plant-based. Watering the trees necessary for nut oils is also a problem in my drought-plagued area. Avocados are like a perfect food that are very life-sustaining.

I do have one suggestion from my travels, though, and that is pigeon peas. They are nitrogen fixing cover crop superstars, full of protein, are quick to cook (unlike so many beans), and absorb flavors well. There are many tasty great Caribbean and African recipes featuring them and they are a great addition as a supplement to any stews or stir-frys or rice, if you eat that.

I'd like to circle back to Neurodiversity. While I think it could be a beneficial growing experience for neurotypicals to appreciate and live with the spectrum, I'm not convinced it is as beneficial for us, simply because the effort is disproportionate. I'm skeptical the gap will ever close, and it physically takes its toll. And being an educator takes its toll as well.

And while I love that Jan appreciates straight talk, which is good because most autistics are incapable of anything but straight, I also think that a message unheard effectively says nothing. So if autistics want to be heard by neurotypicals then they either have to 1) train neurotypicals for autistic comprehension or 2) alter their message to be more accessible, or 3) rely on translators. That is, if one cares to. I'm not so sure I do. I'm finding myself snug as a bug in a rug and happiest when I am oblivious and not participating in those grueling exercises.

I live in the SF Bay Area, and every day conversation here is a PC minefield. This little satire piece could have been written about it:

Entire Human Race Problematic

This isn't the hyper-vigilant world I want to live in, but I do. And to me, all communities get ridiculous like that too often for my tastes. Sometimes communication is over-rated and just living/being aside/next to someone is enough. I can be neighbors with people and their criticisms and emotions, but that's as close as I want to get. So if polyculture is what you seek, that's as granular as I would want to go. I've always been attracted to homesteading for its self- containment, and permaculture helps make that possible with the smallest footprint. That's enough for me, especially after five decades of engagement with a society that takes more than it gives.

Neither can I! I forgot to add in my reply that I probably have to not build to code in some respect when I finally get to build as well. I will pay for a proper foundation, but everything else I will just rely on my own knowledge.

That being said, I do believe our codes, despite being well-intentioned, cater to the insurance industry. And there is a way of being that isn't accounted for in any code book, and that is maintenance. Vernacular architecture that has lasted centuries is maintained. Some cultures, building maintenance is part of the culture. There was an understanding that nothing lasts forever. Now we pretend like it does and the rules reflect that delusion.


I think owner-builder is fine - I also think everyone can be an architect (but few can do it well). The problem is that most owner-builders don't understand structural principles or the materials they are working with enough. So I would pay for a structural engineer And I would also pay for soils testing by a geotech. Even me, with 20 years of architectural experience. I would at the very least spend a few thousand on these critical consultants and if I couldn't afford that, then live in a trailer.

Also, 200 grand! This is a serious misconception about what design consultants make. Our annual salary is about the same as school teachers. Engineering might cost 2-3 grand, soils report 1-2 grand, Architecture anywhere from 5-up (depending on their fee structure and how decisive the client can be). This notion that designers cost more than the house is a serious problem.

Oops, I see you also included construction in that 200 grand. But still, people think design costs more than it actually does. For building safety, 5-10 grand might cover it, and I think it's worth every penny.

Tyler,

Yes - I am missing the small talk gene as well! I know it is code and cultural convention, but seems so inane. Another reason I don't really want to be part of society anymore - the stroking and validating requirements get so old. I'm older and want to be selfish now.

Small Talk

I learned a long time ago that you can write about your own experience and that can't be argued with because it's personal -- but about others, to others, sounds audacious, presumptuous, and patronizing; especially if it's unsolicited. I've been observing people a long time and they tend to end up doing what they want to do even if it is solicited, no matter who's advice they seek. If it is solicited, I advise as long as there are receptive ears, but I don't make a practice of validating anybody's half-baked (in my opinion) plans. It's often not really advice they seek - it's validation of their own plans. Knowing that, if I give unsolicited advice I have to ask myself about my own motivation. If it's to sway/correct somebody, then the opposite of what one wants to do is alienate the audience, so I must be cognizant of my own voice. So that's why sometimes a story is more helpful. Like the post I did here, Design as if your life depended on it.

I've also learned that people who want to break the laws made for their own safety will break them anyway. I can try and counsel them, and do, about the risks both economic and life-safety, but those kind of people don't want my counsel. So I do what professional ethics dictates I have to do and where they deviate from that is their choice and their problem. That's beyond my control, so I no longer let what others do upset or frustrate me.

And I agree, I don't think any of this has anything to do with being autistic, though it might seem like a caricature of what people expect an aspie to sound like. Some aspies have an almost borderline sense of right and wrong so things like this can really eat them up. But I think being overly righteous sounding is something everybody does, and it takes some bad experiences to seek other ways.

Whoa! This conversation went way off the rails! To be honest, I just skimmed it because it seemed a little too fraught to examine closely.

I've been an unlicensed architect for almost 20 years and I now no longer give a damn about what people want to do with their buildings, even though it's my job to get designs to code and get them permitted. I've learned to let some things go. And let people be responsible for their own health, happiness, and safety. I've totally lost interest in arguing a position on anything as well. I think age has something to do with that, and I love it. I'm also an Aspie. Quite similar to Bonnie:

I smile, make small talk, look in the eyes, ask pertinent personal questions and respond with empathy. On first meeting, people like me-----problem is, I really don't relate to them internally----I never learn their name----I don't recall the last conversation. To me, what sticks are ideas, principles, patterns, and solutions to problems. Try as I can to attach the people to the abstract, my brain doesn't care! I don't reciprocate gifts or phone calls; I get in trouble when I see person again and I have no idea what went on before. I'm the person in the photo with his back to the others, I'm happy by myself! I work alone just fine--sorry if it makes you uncomfortable. But if you ask for help to fix something and I'll be right beside you; so please don't hesitate to ask.

Well, except for the smiling, small talk, and looking in the eyes part Bonnie and I could be twins.

Anyway, it's been my experience that I get along okay in communities. It's not the community I butt heads with. In fact, be it job or intentional community or co-workers or social groups, people usually like me because my observations just.make.sense and I clearly care a great deal and they appreciate my perspective and different approach to things. I come value-added and I have something to offer. It's typically whoever is in charge and - despite the structure, no matter how egalitarian or anarchic or progressive or whatever they say they are - there is ALWAYS someone in charge, who has more of a share, or more power, or more money, or thinks they have more knowledge, that is the problem; that I butt heads with. I tend to look at systems. I notice when things aren't running smoothly and how they could be improved. I never claim to know it all, but I can identify problems and suggest group brainstorms of fixes. This is appreciated by everyone oppressed by the problems, but not by whoever set up the flawed system to begin with, because it doesn't reflect well on them. I seem to be able to get along with other neurotypes, just not narcissists/egoists and sociopaths. They regard me as a threat.

You know, the world is often discussing how to deal with autistic people but not realizing that, outnumbered, we have to deal with "normal" people to a greater degree just as a function of math! We are stretching to meet social norms each and every day. And it is not easy. But nobody stretches to meet us. What would that require? Maybe slowing down a second and listening? Maybe being a little patient? Maybe looking for positives instead of flaws?

I also don't know how power-hungry controlling ego-centric narcissistic exploitative people came to be thought of us "normal" (and yes, those types exist in the alternative and activist and ecological and organic and permaculture world as well) and we on the autism spectrum came to be thought of us lesser. The world is often an upside-down place.

I have found recently, meeting other autistics regularly - ones all over the spectrum, from severely disabled to so high-functioning you might question their being different at all - and I find them VERY easy to get along with. Thoughtful, tolerant, intelligent, respectful, gentle, kind.

I worked with another Aspie one time - and he was overbearing and everyone was annoyed by his superior air. He was making the slightly dense guy who worked under him's life miserable. I finally pointed out that the guy really needed some thoughtful training and that he would be good at training him since he had such a wealth of knowledge, and maybe he could find a way to explain some common sense to the guy as well as the more technical knowledge he needed to learn - to give him a strong foundation. The Aspie was inspired. He became a really good teacher. It was rewarding. He started just giving away helpful tips to people and smiling more. He was still a little overbearing, but everyone was benefiting from it and nobody minded anymore. Like all people, autistic people just need to have a role that utilizes their talents and then society recognizes their value more. And then we have a reason to communicate as well.

I would ask, does the larger "normal" (neurotypical) world bother to try to understand the autistic world? Can they learn to respect private space, and listen more? The phrase, "still waters run deep" comes to mind. It is easy to rush past and miss something beautiful.

Me personally, I find the neurotypical world far too political and stressful and exhausting. Reaching consensus with more aggressive types might be the death of me - both figuratively and literally. I'm attracted to homesteading primarily to get away from social stress and wouldn't want to recreate it on a smaller scale. I feel like the world could learn a lot from us and needs us more than we need it, actually.

Huge. Market that and you won't have enough time in the day to answer all your messages.

I have an appt. with Sustainable Economies Law Center next Monday

Please gather questions you might have so I can make the best use of my time with them!

Well, I think the order of operations would be to start small with the goal of a credit union in the future, as establishing a real banking institution would require being able to maneuver through securities & exchange commission and we would need some experience and expert consultation for that. First would come establishing the 501c-9 Fraternal Order / Homestead Permaculture Grange-like organization, and from that establishing some smaller-scale lending circles while working on the larger picture.

I think a PDC makes sense, but I also know that I personally have to choose between PDC or putting my money towards land. It would be nice if there was a path to PDC incorporated into qualifications and not just outright already having one. Perhaps a demonstration garden could be a requirement, that the food production has to promote food forestry, no-till natural, hugelculture, or some aspect of permaculture in practice? It could even be similar to the homestead act which had requirements and terms, such as x trees planted and thriving in five years.

Some real studying of organizational models is in order about now. Local chapters could be marketed through meetups. If we got non-profit status perhaps we could even get grant monies.

I would be happy to contribute and design a website. We should gather some charter members and target some candidates for a board of directors for oversight.

oh wait! You mean you want to be a developer that would allow rent to own? Or are you talking about sharecropping? I'm confused.

I've looked at establishing 501c-3's before, and those require setting up a board and demonstrating a public good, such as education or conservancy or charity. If I read between the lines, a 501c-9 would need to demonstrate a group good. Perhaps a website with legal information on declaring oneself a homestead for tax purposes, a charter and by-laws, membership requirements and an application process. Perhaps a clearing house listing properties, etc.

We'd probably need to consult a CPA and/or lawyer to review once that was all hashed out. I will ask around to local organizations to see what they do.

So from the link in that article is another link to the IRS

Basically, say, if Paul wanted to start a 501c-9 Homestead Permaculture Grange and if there were local chapters, rotating loans could be set up to promote permaculture homesteading if the loans were originated from the local chapters.

That is within the U.S. economic system, so I'm not sure but maybe by-laws could include those in the process of seeking U.S. residency? Maybe a small membership fee could cover the cost of setting up the entire system. I'd have to look into whether or not such local chapters would need to demonstrate other services as well.

So many topics that strike home these days...

I eat a ketogenic diet. (the one where fat is your fuel source) I began it over a year ago because my stressful job was making my blood sugar problems show up again, and I was forgetting things a lot and fuzzy headed. This is NOT a good thing when you are managing 60 projects. I'd read that the keto diet had a good result on a woman doctor correcting her hsuband's Alzheimer's, and that people with diabetes had returned to "normal" levels of A1C testing. It originated (and why I remembered it in the first place) to treat (and cure many) children with epilepsy - I had a few seizures in the past and had been put on a high protein low carb diet at the time to help, which it did. The excess protein isn't really necessary or the part that is therapeutic though.

It has made a huge difference in my life. I am calm, lucid, my memory has improved, no longer tired and even have enhanced energy, and I never get food emergencies anymore. Btw, eating fat used to make me really really sluggish. You have to eat this way for a week or more before your body switches over and then eating fat becomes like a shot of vitamins or popeye's spinach! The most I ever experienced during the switch was the feeling you have the next day after you've had wine the night before. Not quite a hangover. I lose my way now and then, (holidays, birthdays, girl scout cookie campaign, etc.) but I never experience any discomfort returning to the state of ketosis if I get off track. I'm not concerned about putting strain on some organs, since the benefits (for me at least) far outweigh any risks.

Fun fact I have learned. When women breast-feed, their bodies are naturally in ketosis.

I tend to think our primitive forbearers were often in ketosis, and the mechanism to switch fuels exists so our body had options depending on what was available as a fuel source. Maybe this was even seasonally...

Unlike a lot of people, I haven't lost weight on it because, in the interest of sustainability, I chose not to be strict about it. I try to eat less than 30 carbs a day, which is about one serving of what most people have with every meal, but I don't measure or weigh anything. It's more that I cook a zero carb diet and then treat myself to a small bag of chips or a granola bar or something when I feel naughty. Treating epilepsy is achieved by putting children on a ratio of 4:1 parts fat to carbs. Staying in ketosis (where your body ignores carbs as its fuel source) can be maintained at 2:1. It's much easier to just think in terms of ratios. My diet is full of healthy organic veggies and at 2:1 is a yummy and not gross level of fat. I had to switch from mostly vegan to lacto-ovo vegetarian in order to do this easily.

The problem is I love and rely on coconut oil a lot, because it is closest to pure medium chain triglycerides (MCTs), which is like pure fuel. And I live in a temperate climate and there aren't local sources for coconut oil. I like butter too but I also would prefer to be vegan, and so my new reliance on dairy disturbs me. Someday, when I have land, I would like to explore nut cheese and pressing my own olive oil, but I know that it takes a long time to establish fruiting trees and I also don't know what the yield is and how many I will need. Maybe my love of coconut oil and coffee will be the bulk of my social security check later! Cashew, Walnut, Almond and Olives, and if that means I have to stay here in California where the land is impossibly expensive and there isn't enough water to feed such thirsty producers. Hmm. maybe I should have posted this in the growies section...

The link in my last post goes over several variations of what you are referring to and those were called Lending Circles. It would probably need to be scaled up a little to help people with down payments. But it would also be better yet if we had a credit union that could offer permies terms much lower than market rate bank loans. If we had one permie who was land rich and wanted to sell off some lots, it would be a great place to begin. Most Credit Unions began representing workers, so I'm sure they started out with little. I wonder how they began? Must investigates...

I would like to think we would all live by permaculture ethics and also, payments to a lending circle would be legally binding.

I just spent about four of the last seven years talking about adoption. So I'm pretty worn out on the topic. But at the same time, it would be irresponsible of me not to speak and represent here, as I am an intercountry adoptee.

I dated a guy once who was very proud of himself for having an early vasectomy because of his belief in population control. But what if you marry someone who wants children? He flippantly shot out, "it's okay - I'll just adopt!"

I think that represents a lot of people's attitudes about adoption - that it's an inherently good thing to do, and there isn't a lot of thought put into it.

I will put forth some things to consider:

When most people think of adoption, they think of infants and actually there are very few infants available.
The majority of babies available come from challenging circumstances and have special needs or come from foreign countries or both.
Very few adoptees have no living parents and are actual orphans.
You can't believe the social histories the adoption agencies write about the birth mothers. This is the truth. I've talked to many.
Unless the birth parents are dead, especially the mother, their existence will manifest itself in some way, shape, or form.

An adoptee grows up having to be a walking poster child for adoption.
An adoption story is often asked for and the adoptee must explain: biological need, charitable benevolence, replacement baby, project for bored mother, etc.,
There will always be differences that are ignored or celebrated but always present.
A transracial adoptee is always noticed and commented on.
Adoption must be addressed and acknowledged. When, how, and how much is a huge discussion.
Adoptees of all ages have lost their first parents and grieve in some ways.

I personally am mostly against adoption, because I've talked extensively with adoptees and first mothers here and abroad.

I am all for adoption under the following circumstances:
Intra-family adoption so a child can stay in a family they already know
Adoption within communities where the child knows, loves, trusts, and already has a relationship with the person adopting
Where identity is maintained and contact with the first mother is encouraged
Where cultural identity is not effectively severed
I am mostly in favor of foster-to-adopt. I feel the child should have the final say on if they want to be adopted or not.

I'll stop there, because I could go on for days and don't want to. I just wanted readers to think about how there is much more to it than saving the planet, or biological urges, or some momentary inconvenience or expense. There's a person there being tossed around.

Hi folks, I've been wondering for quite some time why we can't have an alternative funding mechanism to "seed" more permaculture homesteads? Or have I missed an already started thread somewhere?

Everyone here knows how there aren't mortgages for raw land, few people have cash to purchase land outright, and how expensive the interests rates are for improved land with homesites and construction loans. So many lots with mortgages are under-sized for a self-sufficient lifestyle. Or the right land has a multi-million dollar house on it. The interest rates are too high, and even saving up for a higher down payment to get owner financing means the bank is profiting off of you.

Wouldn't it be great if we had our own credit union or mutual aid society? Wouldn't it be great if there were lending circles? Or a revolving fund to seed eco-villages? Or even a development company that purchased large parcels and sold lots specifically with permaculture in mind. I would much rather pay a mortgage or loan payment to an institution that had allied interests at heart than to these predators in suits. Plus, the paying in cash for properties would save everyone so much money in interest not paid. In addition, unimproved properties that foreclosed that seem worthless to banks would still have a market in our community and there wouldn't be as much speculation or loss.

Would anyone else be interested in forming such a collective? A permie looking to sell property in a few years would be a great way to kick off such a project, the mutual aid society building up it's coffers until that time, and a small interest from the sale price contributing to seeding new loans. Does anyone here know about banking and economics? Or what if 20 people in a circle could fund a down payment for two properties every year? Everybody could have that much more power to get their property sooner. It just seems like a smart thing to do. And still leaves a lot of freedom to the individual.

Thoughts anyone?

How Lending Circles Create Community Resilience

I don't think I'm being prescriptive, just realistic.

but that still means several hundred of us scattered around, many of whom will eventually find their way here.

This is definitely a happy occurrence of late. It's nice just to know others are there, waving.

Well you know, Neil, I don't seek romance as primary motivation, which is where our methods differ. I think sustainable love is something that grows over time and shouldn't be forced, so establishing any relationship without proximity to truly meaningfully know and experience all aspects of a person seems like putting the cart before the horse to me.

I am looking more for that eco-village of two, and not because I want romance, more just to insure enough community to provide mutual aid. I'm much more interested in a working agreement and relationship and if romance developed, which it might, which it probably would, then it would at least be natural or grow naturally. Ha ha. I find the whole idea of romance on-line lacking. But when one is as specific as I am, one must cast a wide net - even if it is just to test a working only partnership.

My adoptive father was Scottish, hence the name...Never been to Scotland - it looks beautiful, and also like the sheep have done a number on the ecosystem...I get why you seek more fertile regions.

Sigh. Maybe there is just one of us in each state. And we just wave to each other...

Hi Neil,

Skimming through your posts, I can see that you are a Sapiosexual. As am I. It's a good thing. I think we are a lot alike, except that my job is dealing with planning agencies, etc., (they don't make my head explode so much as the architects and clients I work for) and am just not interested in what people who are not my friends think about me. I just want a laboratory to build whole house systems in the same way you want a laboratory to create forest garden systems.


To Neil's profile readers,

In Neil's defense, as a fellow aspie, I would like to put forth that a relationship with an Aspie can be as good as any. And I think the fact that Neil KNOWS his short-comings may make his relationship potential even better than most. I've had two long-term relationships, one six years and one twelve years. I think I can speak for my past partners in characterizing my aspie self as being: low maintenance, honest (sometimes brutally - but hey at least it's real), communicative (though weirdly often in writing), easy-going, accommodating, realistic, fair, rational, kind, and considerate. Perhaps not the most exciting in the whole world, but how sustainable is that? I think a person who is in relationship with an aspie should be comfortable with themselves, because sometimes we are absorbed in our own little worlds and need space. But on the flip side, we respect the space of others equally.

Were he not in Scotland, I'd be calling him up immediately.

Such a fascinating topic...I am not a woman homesteading alone, so I may not be qualified to respond, but I aspire to be, and the thread is provocative so felt inclined to chime in.

My first thoughts are: why does the idea of a woman homesteading by herself seem so sensational? Why is she thought of as vulnerable? Why does being solo have to mean alone? Why should she feel fear to do so, and why should we feel scared for her?

I tend to think just being born female is a dangerous act: I've certainly experienced my share of violence (but that threat seems omnipresent and everywhere to me) and I can't let that stop me from pursuing how I want to live. On the contrary, living by myself has always felt LESS dangerous than living with others. I've traveled alone. I've walked with confidence down very mean streets. I've lived abroad alone. In near total isolation for weeks at a time, pretty consistently, for years. I didn't go crazy. It was nice. I only feel lonely on the occasions I am surrounded by a lot of people who don't get me. We teach our children to fear strangers, yet the real child molesters are actually trustees with access to the child. Same with rape - most of us have encountered our rapist socially in some manner. One can be very lonely and isolated and vulnerable anywhere one lives, and probably even more-so in a teeming metropolis, where one must constantly be on guard against many more hidden dangers that are equally life-threatening, such as sociopaths and opportunists, road rage, people on the verge of exploding...

When I was living by myself in a foreign country I was probably in just as much danger as living in wilderness far from a hospital. I couldn't tell anyone my address or ask for help no matter how many times I tried, because nobody could understand me. I learned about myself. I learned that with a lot of time on one's hands, one never gets done what one plans to. So I learned to relax my plans. I learned I don't need to bathe as much as most people. I learned that if you don't have to see anyone else it doesn't matter if you wear the same overalls a week straight. I learned that I enjoyed watching my fellow spinster minding her web more than the clean corner nobody ever saw. I learned that one big pot of stew for every meal for two days straight was a most efficient and quite fine way for one to eat! I learned that when I was enjoying a project, that I could damn all other issues to just wait. I had my foot in both worlds there: blessed solitude at home and stark isolation and loneliness among the masses when not at home, and the two never overlapped like they do when you live in a society where you speak the same language. Solitude is relishing being by oneself. Being lonely is missing people. Not the same at all. We can live in solitude and wave to our neighbors. We should honor the community we live in, but the amount we participate is our choice. But we should take the time to introduce ourselves and show respect to our neighbors, and that doesn't detract from us being independent. Even Chinese hermits are peripherally connected to their communities.

I like to think of living amongst nature as nourishing solitude, and there is nothing lonely about that. I think of Annie Dillard writing:

An anchorite's hermitage is called an anchor-hold; some anchor-holds were simple sheds clamped to the side of a church like a barnacle or a rock. I think of this house clamped to the side of Tinker Creek as an anchor-hold. It holds me at anchor to the rock bottom of the creek itself and keeps me steadied in the current, as a sea anchor does, facing the stream of light pouring down. It's a good place to live; there's a lot to think about

I've gone out of my way to visit homesteaders since I've been back, and I've also learned that I will never be the homesteader who works 16 hour days, unless the work isn't work to me and that's what I'm enjoying doing. Because the other thing is, is that there is also the need to fill empty days. Some people don't know what to do with time, so they fill it with work that requires maintenance they grow to resent. I hope to have a budget to be able to design infrastructure right to avoid the maintenance nightmare of less than ideal assemblies but, like most people who can't afford this, I would rather have the opportunity to homestead imperfectly than not at all. We have to be practical over romantic. I've poured cement, I've hauled rocks, I've hammered, I know my way around the tools at the hardware store, etc. I theoretically know how to fix almost everything. I know disasters happen and things that get used hard get broken and harvest waits for no one. But for me, the complete ouvre of self-sufficiency is more than just food and shelter; there is also feeding ones soul. I want to prioritize that, and so time must be protected from overwork. I would not choose to own a dozen ruminant livestock because then I'd have to give away hours of my precious life to growing hay. mowing, stacking, fence repair, etc., when I can get by on much less. There is no reason to scale up if I'm just taking care of me. It's also a matter of standards of consumption. I'm not going to grow wheat to grind to make artisan bread, because I prefer to eat less processed food which is less labor intensive. Etc. etc. I have seen how grand plans and large lifestyles oppress homesteaders and permaculturists, so I want to fight against ambition creep and keep it simple so I can enjoy time. I want time to cultivate a poet's sensibilities and a philosopher's observations.

So I think the level of safety is relative wherever you go. Living in economically depressed areas, drug money theft, natural violence and random acts of God are a trade-off for the opportunity to craft your own alternative lifestyle in harmony with nature. The trade-offs I make in the city seem to be more and more often, and rob me of time to connect with nature's life force. And being sustainable as a solo woman seems to me to be a matter of scale. Managing expectations and embracing standards proportionate to ones energy is probably key.

So yes I feel different and with some capacities (taht are the gift of having to adapt to the world), but at the same time I accept the part that I am also "ill", and not only different. Anyway, we are all ill and hurt in a way or another.... So there is no problem for me. The good news is about healing most of it, AND keeping the gift we have developped while surviving and adapting to this world.

I like this a lot. I've spent the past few days thinking about how some Aspies don't want to be pathologized when it's what it seems I sought to do by seeking a diagnosis. While I agree that the path to diagnosis is inaccessible to a lot of adults, and that disclosure could prove harmful to a lot of people trying to get by in our present society (for instance, I can tell my colleagues and ask for their support but I can not risk telling my boss because he will find ways to hold that against me), the confirmation that there is a biological physical difference in my wiring is comforting because my best efforts to be like everyone else have always fallen short. I also just spent the last seven or eight years exploring nature vs. nurture and pretty much worked through the nurture portion (abandoned, exported, adopted, abused) and yet that didn't fully explain my relationship (or lack thereof) to the rest of the world. The nature part remained a mystery and being on the Autism spectrum has been the only thing that made sense, but without confirmation, I just questioned if I was grasping at straws and feared being judged as a hypochondriac.

There seems to be so much attention given to the "other" these days that it causes envy in the mainstream. They want to be applauded for being good at being normal, and resent the romanticizing directed at those who have turned their back on society. Like this article:

The self-reliant individual is a myth that needs updating

The thesis that even celebrated loners in history and literature had companions so they weren't really self-reliant, that true strength lies in the courage to make oneself vulnerable to connection, that this is a feminine act, and that connection in society is the thing we should really be celebrating, and this is what we are all supposed to want...rubs me all wrong...it's not like that wasn't thought of or attempted.

I'm a woman, and I've been vulnerable and I am strong, and I AM WORN OUT trying to connect. Props to them that can, but more power to me in my inability to. My NEED to distance myself from society is now verified as REAL and biological. So now I feel like I finally have permission to explore that with less criticism and self doubt. I welcome the pathology, while at the same time celebrate the gifts and insights it brings us. I love that some of the most beautiful minds in the world, historically and present day (and here) seek a different path, a more sensitive environment, and answer the call to their true nature. Once (oh God, please let it be sooner than later) I have my own permaculture homestead, then this label will become meaningless and I can just revel in being who I was always meant to be.

Thank you, Phoenix Blackdove. I looked it up on Wikipedia and that was very informative.

I am officially diagnosed now. It is both a relief and sad at the same time. The word "ordeal" comes to mind. Quality of life would have been so much better had this been identified as a child.

I don't do tests. I don't go to a (psych.) doctor to have a diagnosis. I don't want to be 'labeled' (put in a box). I like being who I am, the way I am.
I think it's impossible to be 'like other people', because all 'other people' are different individuals! In my opinion there is no such thing as 'a normal person'. Yes, you can talk about 'average people'... but someone exactly like that does not exist.

I get your pride, but the way you phrased it feels dismissive to me. There ARE differences which DO seriously impact the individuals. Just look at the profoundly autistic who can not live independently. Most people who read about Asperger's can relate to some of it and some wish they could use it as an excuse. But it's not an excuse. It's not relating to some of it, it's being profoundly impacted by a lot of it. It truly is being wired differently to the degree it is a disability.

The label recognizes that the challenges are real and extraordinary, and I embrace that. That society has pathologized it, misunderstands it, sometimes covets and envies it, is their problem that needs to be enlightened.

I like who I am, the way I am too. And I welcome a diagnosis because if I am wired differently then all my struggles will have made sense.

The conversation turned about the end of page 2 to faking vs. hiding and some semantics about that. And it seemed like the suggestion that it was everyone's duty to try and adapt and be civil in society. And counter to that that society should diversify its definition of itself. It sounds like the mainstream or special ed arguments.

But what's so bad about none of the above for grown-ups? What's so bad about a life apart? All these recent studies about isolation being bad for one's health and everything. Well what if society is bad for the health of someone with ASD? Being in fight or flight mode and stressed out and uncomfortable all the time is not healthy either! Maybe volunteer segregation is really self-care! I'm 51, have worked very hard at fitting in, and do for the most part (but at what cost?), and I haven't had any self-care and I feel frantic in need to retreat - not as a negative running away but as a positive let me finally be good to me.

I toy with the ideas of village and community, but really I honestly only like the idea of distant non-hostile neighbors. My hero is Barbara Rothacker and everything she has said or done really resonates with me. It's why I'm so excited about this thread - because being a hermit, self-sufficient, and living off the land feels like being able to relax and be myself.

A LIfe Apart

I don't know if you could call a couple hermits, or if that's an oxymoron, but an eco-village of two - if only for the practicality of it - would be ideal (manageable). For me.

Yes, unfortunately it has become in vogue since it's gotten so much media play of late. And agreed, when it is worn as an excuse for all manner of "dire and unrepentant behavior" it does indeed allow people to be annoying and dramatic. And probably too many people take the self tests and declare themselves somewhat or probably. They are easy to manipulate for the outcome you want as well. Mass hypochondria and co-opting labels really does diminish the real struggles of those really afflicted.

BUT I'm thankful because it becoming pop culture made me know it exists. It didn't exist when I was growing up. People were touched in the head and to be avoided was about it. It's presence explains a whole lifetime of difficulties and it's comforting to find out about it, because it is better to know I am wired differently than to feel I have just failed at ALL of it because I'm a loser, when I know I am not.

I went in for diagnosis this week (with more testing to go). I have wondered what good it will do to have a label because I've worked decades to seem normal and fit in and am superficially successful at that. But I'm also on my 18th job. And I've moved 40 times. And I'm never happy in society despite having talents society can utilize. So I think even if one superficially fits in, one can have a hard time living a lie. And so the diagnosis if positive will help me work with - whatever it is - and not in spite of it or trying to kill it. And relationship and friendship is clearly something I have problems starting and maintaining.

I don't think one has to exhibit more physical Autism traits for it to count or to not have it catastrophically impact your life. I have some unseen neurological issues that were inconclusive but might be co-morbid to Autism. I exhibit none of the physical presentations that characterize Aspies, though one might be able to see me as a more subtle female Spock.

It's not cheap though, so it's understandable more people don't go in for a formal diagnosis. I broke my no credit card rule for this, because I was about to leave yet another job...so realizing I can't keep doing this it seemed worth the high cost.

I saw that too and googled it without results.

Nice video - thank you for posting!

Found this:

His truely last original work, but not a book:

2009 Iroha Revolutionary Verses
いろは革命歌 (iroha kakumei uta);
Fukuoka, Masanobu's 47 hand-written classical song-verses (bilingual) and drawings, in pen and ink, also with photographs;
One large double–sided card for each of the 47 classical iroha–arrangement of Japanese syllables;
Includes a bilingual Fukuoka, Masanobu biography commentary booklet by Shōjaku, Mutsumi, having records of practically all his works, bibliography and main life accomplishments, together with the song verses cards;
(Japanese) bilingually with (English) translations – created with several translators, editors and contributors;
53p 15×10cm;
His testament and last creation;
Posthumously self-published in 2009 Feb 2, by 自然樹園 (小心舎) (Shizen Juen (Shou Shin Sha)) –one of his own self-publishing-publisher-names.
In print ISBN 978-4-938743-03-1.

In another article I found a second ISBN 4-938743-03-5

But an ISBN search shows they are both out of print.

Neil - The video is definitely not a method for a small holding. It's a scale thing and a big ag. thing. But I liked their motivation and how they incorporated succession.

Aspies - do you have a hard time reading? I have become more and more critical of books all the time so that, where I used to consume dozens I can now not suffer through any.

I found Mollison unreadable, and Mycelium Running as well. I don't like method mixed with proselytizing. Couldn't finish either.

I wish...I hope they reprint them!

Athena,

Do they offer those grants/subsidies for expats as well?

Hi Neil,

Thought I'd check in on what other things you are posting. Anyway, Galecia sounds like a dream right now - If I had the bucks and the EU citizenship, I would snatch up some of that gorgeous property straight away, before it's long gone! It's a good plan - you should do it! I have played it safe too many times and seen opportunities disappear. Strike while the iron is hot and all that. Or, in this case, before all the decent properties disappear. Even if you can't move immediately, it's only going to get taken by somebody else and soon. That's what is happening in Japan now. The government is starting to buy up the abandoned country property there. And when the next generation decides they've had enough of the rat race and wants to go back to the land, the government will have it all tied up. And you're also right about it being a better environment for abundance than Scotland, lovely as it is. (people see the images on cabinporn, etc., but don't think about actually surviving a self-sufficient life there) Have you checked into the residency requirements?

An old stone farmhouse could be bermed and made even more insulated. And re-roofing would not be so bad with two. It would be helping out the local economy if you could afford to hire someone for a day as well. I bought a book called "Working Alone" which describes how to rig most anything so you can do construction by oneself, as I may just end up that way too. There's something noble in that to me. I think the main things would be: water and road access, phone and INTERNET, and distance to hospital. I actually think I'd be a great companion were my situation not so complicated.

How is your Spanish? You know, I spent four years alone living abroad in a country where I couldn't speak the language and I got on okay. It wasn't ideal and would have been better with a partner, but it also wasn't untenable. I could pantomime. I could look up things on the internet and show shopkeepers things I couldn't describe. Townspeople recognized me and were cordial, even if they were petrified to speak to me. I imagine in a country that shared cognates, latin roots, and borrowed words it would be sooooooooo much easier! At least there would be some touchstones. I am guessing if you were friendly people would be there if you needed them to be, and you would be welcome as long as wives, children, pets and livestock were safe, ha ha!

Bura, The species comparison was fun. We are similar in that I would always visualize and have to draw my ideas instead of speak growing up, and then when I did speak my precise choice of words caused peers to berate me and say, "speak English!" We are different in that I like some order with my chaos.

All this aspie stuff is rather a new revelation. I apologized to my daughter in advance the other day, asking her to try and understand if I ever appear unfeeling, and explained how I don't really know my emotions. I told her it's like: hey! what is this moisture in my eye? Oh! It must mean I am sad. That blew her mind. "Wait - you have a physical response first and then have to figure out what it is?" It blew my mind that that blew her mind, because that state of being isn't remarkable to me. I am the opposite of a drama queen because it's hard to be dramatic about something you have little feeling about. Sometimes I wonder what it is like to feel so much - if it makes life more enjoyable - but then I watch those with smiley faces and heart-dotted i's crash and burn and remember to be thankful for being spared all that. It's nice to get excited about concepts instead.

As an aside, do you think permies could reconsider the name thing? This is the only forum I belong to that makes me use a real name and it makes me feel really vulnerable. Maybe you and Paul could talk about that? Might not have thought about that back when the policy was first started...

Neil, I found that video: Life in syntropy

Agreed.

She is full of vigor, perceptive, and has a wonderful message. She has crafted a life that recognizes the joy of being comfortable in a world that doesn't appreciate difference. She's living an authentic life and that's something we should all strive for.

I got all excited about this today.



It's about an aspie female architect living "half isolated" and championing neuro-diversity.

I see you've thought about this much more than I have. I guess I would concur regarding when and how one functions. I have been in leadership roles often, and that may appear very high-functioning but it's actually a role that insulates one from participating as much. One on one is actually much more fluid.

I have a problem with the labels - even the aspie label. I even feel uncomfortable calling non aspies neurotypicals or whatever. We all have issues, all of us. And we all have value. My daughter's bi-polar boyfriend lived with us for awhile and he was a genius at times and out of his mind at others. In other times, in other cultures, he might have been considered a divine oracle. In Korea, shamans were often females who had cracked and were considered channels for spirits. If one is obsessive, it means you have a purpose and are one with it. Being authentically different with specific talents is a benefit to society and should be nurtured.

For the life of me I can't understand why more people don't seek out aspies. People who can't lie should be valued!

I think the problem is the breakdown of community. In a real community, of a sustainable size, it is possible to know everyone enough to view the depth of their characters and potential for contribution and accept them. In modern society we move past each other in a rush and interactions are fleeting and pressure-filled so a call must be made - we've only got so much space and have to make judgements. It's sad.

I know my life would be so much more peaceful living apart from society. I also know that is lazy of me. And in some regards I think we are good for society...It would nice to find some balance. Like literally live on the margins yet still have some meaningful interaction.

Sorry so disjointed. In a rush myself off to the jobby job.

Thanks for the weirdo suggestions - that's very creative thinking!

I went to an SCA thing one time. I get why people like it and it was fun to visit, but it wasn't my thing - maybe it was the recorder music and war games that turned me off. Though I definitely could see it as a great place to market crafts. Ha! I recently read somewhere that there are a lot of S&M aficionados attracted to SCA, and that it's a sub-genre!

There is also Burning Man. Lots of engineers & IT people at that. Lots of nudity and eating sand. Not for me. Lloyd Kahn (author of the Shelter books) recently spoke at the last Maker's Fair in the Bay Area. Went to a Robocon thing once too. That was fun. I know there are Permie conventions now. I get a little insecure at geek events though, being so behind in everything, feeling inadequate with my arrested development self. People also aren't walking around with indicators of their relationship status though, and most appear to be partnered.

I think, like you, it would be best to have a complement vs. someone who obsesses about the same things.

One of my favorite movie characters is Seymour in Ghost World. I could easily find Seymour, but would he be inclined to lift an axe? Dig a post hole? yeah, I didn't think so...Highlander games, now that's another story. Maybe I need to find a taber tosser! Ha ha!

I will try and make it to an aspie meetup and see what it's like, but not for romance. You know if you work too hard at something you screw up nature's synchronicity. Would rather have my own hydrangea story.

Nicole,

That is the sweetest story! Maybe there is hope...

I love weirdos but don't have any clue where to find them.


Tyler, you'll be amused to know I was pretty impressed with you until I found out you were taken!