There's this awesome team of folks doing a kickstarter project, posted about in the tiny house forum here. The Open Building Institute is a system of building a sustainable home - not necessarily "tiny", but energy efficient and sustainable from the ground up, including energy, water, and food production. Aquaponic greenhouse! The plans, techniques, and even the designs of machinery to help make building materials from local sources, are all being open sourced.

Their kickstarter could really use some steam. One of the project partners, Marcin Jakubowski, is willing to do a permies.com Q&A and giveaway thingmabob in the Building forum. I wasn't sure where else to post this, but I'd really love to join other permies picking Marcin's brain about their project.

Marcin, this is an amazing system! Very relevant to Permaculture, with integrated systems, a socially integrative approach to building, and spreading the ideas in an open source ecosystem.

This site occasionally does a "post your questions for an expert this week and get a chance to win a free book/ebook/etc" events. Would you guys be willing to do something like that? I'm sure your kickstarter campaign could use some attention right now!

Audrey Huring wrote:...us Virginians are torn between "Eastern US" and "Southern US." Do we need our own area? lol.

I like to think of us as the "Middle East of the US". In many ways I think that fits us.

Well, I bought my property! It ain't much, but I am the sole owner and proprietor of a germinating 1/6 acre urban permaculture project in Church Hill North, Richmond Virginia. I need to tear down the house that's there now (1916/not energy efficient/gutted/termites), design and build an off-grid house, and work out from Zone 0 to mortgage-free debt-free community regeneration! Til then, I am renting close by in Fulton Hill.

Last time I lived here, there was a Transition RVA group that I think can be revived. There is a network of PV-solarpunk-DIY-artistic resourceful weirdos, an amazing diverse music scene, several hospitals and universities, an urban intentional community, an indie low-power FM station (or two), a Bread-and-Puppet-style Halloween parade, in a fairly chicken-friendly city with more community gardens and local markets than you can shake a stick at. So I think there's lots to keep us permies busy in Richmond and central Virginia.

Y'all hit me up on here or Farcebook. Well met, amigos!

Hi Gian, well met! I am currently renting a place not far from Richmond in Fredericksburg. I am looking to buy a small cheap fixer-upper house, or land to build a small off-grid house, in the Richmond area. PM me your contact info and I will hit you up next time I am down that way!

Hey there Marlene!

I have similar goals to yours, and I have also run into bumps in the road and had to be adaptable to find ways to move forward. My situation is complicated by having a few kids to support, which has prevented me from moving far from them and their mom (Richmond VA area) or changing careers. For the next 5+ years I will be on the hook at least somewhat for supporting them, so I will have to keep working full-time for 5-6-7 more years (I'm 43 now). However, I have managed to get my finances stable, and at least for now my job allows me to work from home almost 100% (software engineer). I'm constrained because I don't have good credit - nor do I want to borrow against the future in these uncertain times. I have very few debts or obligations left, and I like it that way.

Permaculture is a design process that starts with what we have, and builds a bridge to what we want. I know I want to be near Richmond, and I am interested in urban permaculture and a walk/bike/transit lifestyle. I have found many aspects of rural living can be great, but it has an embedded fossil fuel cost and/or more isolation than I prefer. I have built up some permie skills and knowledge with lots of reading and experimentation over the past several years. I have a good job and some excess income to invest. I have a small IRA I can leverage to invest in property. I have been dithering over the past year or two where to settle and how, and with whom. I haven't had much luck getting people to collaborate, just not enough folks around with the same goals and ready to act/invest at once. I do know a lot of people in the area into different things; artists, performers, activists, foragers, gardeners, beekeepers, tiny housers, and a few scattered Transition/permaculture people. I want to stake out a place where I can live, work, and experiment with food forests, gardens, and aquaponics.

At the moment I am in the process of cashing out my IRA and looking for cheap vacant lots in Richmond. I have identified a favorable neighborhood with a community garden, plus some people I know living there. Definitely an "edge" community with lots of potential. I found a 0.24 acre lot I could afford with $15K or so left over toward building a modest house, perhaps a duplex to allow space for itinerant relatives or WWOOFers. My goal is to be rent/mortgage-free in 2016, investing more in getting off-grid and making a permaculture haven as time goes by and steady employment is still available. Maybe acquiring more land, if the experiment is successful, but weaning myself out of office work and doing more community-integrated livelihood experiments. I am inspired by elements of urban projects like Food Forest Farm, The Urban Farming Guys, and Growing Power.

That's my plan for 2016, or at least a starting point and vision. I'm going solarpunk.

Solidarity!

-Chris

A fellow Dune fan sent this to me recently, apparently the autumnal weather change causes a shift in coffee shop orders...

I am looking for land in the Northern Neck of Virginia. My parents currently live there, and I would like to be near them as they get older, and also near to the Chesapeake Bay and all it has to offer for food, recreation, and transportation. I hope to have a permaculture farm with ecologically grown perennial foods and some forest for agroforestry, hunting, and foraging. I am looking for something with a spring/creek, and at least some elevated acreage over 100-150 feet above current sea level with southern exposure. I would like to open up this property to some people who share my values to forge a small community that is resilient, and has people with different skills and ideas to share.

I will follow the links you posted, but I am very well aligned with what you shared here. I would add to your list my interests:

Appropriate technology for living systems (pumping and purifying water, passive solar design, etc)
Ham radio and other resilient communications
Sailing (I plan to purchase a sailboat and learn)
Community economic systems (share/barter/credit)

Just for starters!

@Sandra - did you visit Shine and Rise, or someone else out there? I am looking to do something on the Northern Neck of VA, across the bay from the shore. Looking for land now!

@Napoli - sounds like an awesome project! I would love to come visit sometime, I have family in Sistersville near the Ohio River, might be passing through sometime in August.

I have some building projects in mind, and I have been very excited after reading Ben Law's books (The Woodland Way and Roundwood Timber Framing) to do some roundwood framing. I really, really need a workshop, and I think a cruck-framed building would work nicely.

We are fortunate to have quite a bit of tulip poplar, aka yellow poplar, on the property. I have seen this wood used quite a bit in construction, and it should be great for dry above-ground uses. In fact, we are preparing to put up a fence, and I need to take down 10-12 tulip poplar trees ASAP. I can't imagine taking these beautiful tall, straight trees down without saving some for beams. However, I am under the impression that I would need to mill the lumber fairly soon after felling, maybe even immediately. I am concerned that my project will take longer than I would like if I have to mill each tree as I drop it. I work M-F 9-5, and I really want to get this fence up before my neighbor starts spring planting, because my chickens love his garden.

I have some experience with a chainsaw, and I am looking to purchase an Alaskan sawmill attachment and rip chains for my Stihl MS311. I am fairly certain the milling/ripping will get very difficult if the wood dries, but how much time do I have? What is the best way to go about storing this lumber until I need it, if I can't have the ideal drop-mill-build scenario?

Thanks, Jason... what did I win?

I think a lot of people end up in opposing camps, often throwing things at each other, when they try to interpret something like these ethics and principles. It is a funny cyclic activity we humans seem to enjoy...

Someone has a profound insight about how we live and relate to each other, and shares it with others

Some people are horrified/threatened by the message, and they may nail the author to a tree

Other people are inspired by this insight, and someone decided it should be written down and shared

The profound message is written down, often by people other than the original author (who may have been nailed to a tree or otherwise removed from circulation), declared holy by those who Believe, and made into Dogma

Time passes, context changes, and maybe people don't even speak the language in which the message was originally written

Camps develop around different personalities or interpretations, and they often exhibit behavior which is inconsistent with the original inspiration

Many people will only hear of the great conflict surrounding the personalities and extreme behavior, and make judgments about the ideas and their original author without even hearing the originally intended message

I think this progression is why Paul dislikes hosting these types of conversations on the site. He wants us to stay focused on the message, and not make a religion of Permaculture. Maybe it is easier if we read, watch, and listen with a clear mind, taking everything in without judging, and argue with humility. I like what Paul says about educating people in the logical fallacies. We are so accustomed to looking at information as some kind of monument to be worshiped and never changed. Arguing is a fine art, and great ideas only become greater when subjected to such polishing.

This is a great video to watch before a good argument:

Anyone want to sign up for Diaspora*? There aren't too many permies on there I have been able to find. I found a pod with some bandwidth here in the US, but maybe there are reasons to go to an international one instead?

Here is my profile on the AptitudeWorks pod.

Anyone want to sign up for Diaspora*? There aren't too many permies on there I have been able to find. I found a pod with some bandwidth here in the US, but maybe there are reasons to go to an international one?

Here is my profile on the AptitudeWorks pod.

I don't know about the podcast, but it sounds like you are talking about Transition US, maybe?

Hi Natasha!

I am in the Richmond area, and I have similar goals to you, but have not yet built any significant sustainable shelter. I have been reading up on roundwood timber framing, earthbag construction, and straw bale construction. I was very interested in Earthships (some features in common with Paul's wofati), but I am hearing from lots of east coast natural builder folks that an in-the-ground house is not feasible with the high humidity we have here (Earthship-killer?), and also the termites (wofati-killer?). I have been thinking that may be an oversimplification, and that there must be a way to take advantage of annualized thermal mass (ground is cooler than air in summer and warmer than air in winter) and build in some kind of passive ventilation/dehumidifying that keeps your space mold-free.

I am still in the research phase, and I may try a prototype soon. I would like to incorporate some sort of root cellar, and perhaps an underground cistern to use as a heat sink. I think we could find a way to add thermal mass in some way other than an actual in-the-ground house... maybe an earthen foundation under an overhang that catches angled winter sun, but not summer sun. Passive hot water heating is another interesting feature.

I have seen some nice straw bale and off-grid energy stuff at Living Energy Farm in Louisa. They even have workshops on building occasionally. You can also get info about other workshops and events on the Blue Ridge Permaculture listserv.

~smacking hand against forehead~

I can't believe I forgot my favorite of all time!!! I am known for pulling this one out at the most unexpected times...

"That's what she said"

Which, interestingly enough, originates from a British version, "Said the actress to the bishop".

The classic example- when catching a fish, or looking at a large animal, or just about anything:
"Wow, that's a big one!"
"That's what she said!"

Straight from the Northern Neck of Virginia...

After a good meal: "I'm as full as a tick"
Asking what time it is: "Half past a monkey's ass, and a quarter to his balls"
Saying you want or wish for something: "Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first"

Richard Delvers wrote:Compressed air isn't very efficient. It just seems that way because the cost is hidden in your power bill.

If you are getting your air from a compressor that is supplied by a fossil fired boiler, then the efficiency is really terrible. If your air comes from a wind driven compressor, or the compressor receives electricity from a solar powered system, then you are really doing something.

If not, you, and the world would be better off driving a light weight, high efficiency internal combustion engine powered car.

Rune

True that! I read this on Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:
The principal disadvantage is the indirect use of energy. Energy is used to compress air, which - in turn - provides the energy to run the motor. Any conversion of energy between forms results in loss. For conventional combustion motor cars, the energy is lost when chemical energy in fossil fuels is converted to mechanical energy, most of which goes to waste as lost heat. For compressed-air cars, energy is lost when chemical energy is converted to electrical energy, when electrical energy is converted to compressed air, and then when the compressed air is converted into mechanical energy.
...
The overall efficiency of a vehicle using compressed air energy storage, using the above refueling figures, is around 5-7%... For comparison, well to wheel efficiency of a conventional internal-combustion drivetrain is about 14%...

There are advantages, including air-conditioning as a by product of air decompression. However, there is complexity required to compress the air efficiently, and most designs probably require the addition of heat to prevent parts from freezing during decompression. I have not seen anyone crunch the numbers to determine how beefy your PV (less ideal, toxic ick plus loss of efficiency in 2X energy conversion) array should be, or how reliable your (most ideal, only 1X conversion) wind turbine needs to be.

In short, compressed air is very clean, and has great potential for energy storage, but has some technical challenges. It would be awesome to see some of these projects come to fruition, but in my current search for alt transportation that is available, affordable, and simple enough for DIY construction/maintenance, the compressed air vehicle fails the Occam's Razor test - not simple enough for me, no good working examples. I am thinking the Steve Heckeroth electric car may be my best option, perhaps using nickel-iron batteries in place of golf cart batteries, at a serious short-term expense but long-term savings of dollars and ick (because nickel-iron batteries last decades)... but I am still doing research.

~Best $25 I have spent recently!!! It was a fun podcast - politics, code, feminism, and drugs, what a blast!

I especially think politics is important, and I'm happy to have a chance to discuss it in this space. I understand Paul's reticence to include it, because the topic causes a lot of dissension and friction.

Wikipedia says:
"Politics (from Greek politikos "of, for, or relating to citizens") is the art or science of influencing people on a civic, or individual level, when there are more than 2 people involved."

So, three friends deciding what to have for dinner is politics. If you want to avoid it, you have a long, hard, lonely life ahead of you. Making decisions is work, and the more people involved, the harder it is. Anyone who tries to avoid politics completely is leaving that work there for someone else to do on their behalf. Then, they usually complain about how it gets done in their absence.

I have worked with several groups in vastly different areas, from mutual aid and support to Transition. It is so easy to get excited about working on projects together, then comes the question, "How do we make decisions?". I have never heard an answer to that question that turned out to be perfect. I think we will always be tweaking that process.

I agree that labels confuse the issues of politics. If I say I resonate strongly with the Libertarian Party platform, I end up defending myself from my friends while trying to keep silly people from slapping me on the back. Ayn Rand is a similar rabbit hole. It is much better to talk about what you mean rather than trying to have other people's conversations, because you will find yourself married to ugly things.

I believe our Federal government is extremely inefficient, corrupt, and way over the limits of what can be effectively done at that scale. There is a theme of decentralization and "empowered committees" in nature, quite the opposite of central control, and it seems to me a better way to approach governance. Why should someone get to take my money and decide how it should be spent?

If you think I need something, ask me. I see health care, poverty, hunger, and most other social welfare issues as community-centric. They cannot be solved the same way in every place, and I have seen far more progress made by localities and community groups than any state or Federal government program. When I hear someone say "food is a human right", it sounds like "free lunch over here". I would prefer to say "the capacity to produce or earn food is a human right", but even that sounds wrong.

I am a compassionate person, and I believe in care of the people, the earth, and return of surplus. I hate to see the waste, and the corruption, and hearing everyone fall for the whole dog and pony show like it is American Idol. I see our Federal government as an inseparable appendage of the monster we are feeding. I want big government to protect us from big bad guys, to provide for the common defense, protect the air and water and soil we all share, and lay the frameworks for fair trade and business. Not tell me what frakking milk I can drink, whom I can marry, or whether I need health insurance. And the problem is not solved by picking someone who agrees with YOUR views, and will shove them down all our throats. It is OK for people to live their own way, and it is healthy for different places to find different solutions. I believe enlightenment, awareness, and the models of nature will lead us toward a more decentralized power structure - that is to say, I believe our current system is crashing around our ears, in slow motion, because it does not recognize its own entropy.

Yup, totally worth $25.

Hey Grant, we had this problem when we first got our chickens. One of our dogs, Ralph, is a mutt who was 7-8 years old at the time, and a stone cold killer. I have seen him kill a gopher and rip the guts out and eat it almost whole. He kills anything that can't get away from him, and he was eyeing those hens and drooling.

We got a hold of a shock collar, and had one of us holding his leash and the other holding the shock controller, while a third person brought in one of the hens. We had to shave some of his neck fur to make sure the electric leads were in contact with his skin. Every time he would look at the chicken, we'd shock him on a lower setting to warn him. Any time he moved toward the chicken, we shocked on the higher setting. We worked with him 2-3 times for maybe 45 minutes each time (as I recall).

I was very skeptical this dog could ever coexist with chickens, but now he is actually afraid of them! We have had some backlash, he will occasionally have accidents in the house because he is afraid to go into the back yard! That hasn't happened in a while. Overall, I would prefer to not have to train in this way again - I do not like inflicting pain and fear in another being, and Ralph's instincts can also be very useful - he could have been used to protect our hens if he had been introduced to them as a puppy. However, we had a need to curb those instincts, and this way was extremely effective.

Good luck!

This is a question I like to ask of any ethical person, and it is often a thorny one. Ethical people care how their choices impact the people around them, and future generations, but many ethical people believe Boca burgers and soy milk are ethical. I have read many of your posts and articles, watched videos of you speaking, and I look forward to reading your book. I think I have a pretty good grasp of your principles when it comes to the human diet.

That being said, I am not asking you what you *believe* we should eat, but what do you *actually* eat on a typical day in your life, perennials versus annuals, meat, veggies, nuts? What kinds of compromises do you find yourself making, and how do you think your diet has progressed as you learn more?

What do you eat when your family sits down to a nice dinner?

What do you eat when you're in a hurry and running out to work your farm?

What do you eat when you are in a big city speaking at a conference?

What do your kids like and dislike most, and how do you handle the different palates at your table?

How are nuts represented in your diet, given your push for perennial staple foods? Do you cook with nut oils, nut flours?

Thanks for the work you're doing, I am inspired by your vision!

-Chris

Some folks I know are running a permaculture-type farm in Painter called Shine and Rise! Looks like they are very close to you, Stewart.

I have thought a lot about land in WV or other Appalachian climes, but for several reasons we decided to turn eastward. This will put us closer to family, and also closer to the most sustainable transportation network on the planet - the ocean! (anyone here read Dmitry Orlov?). Not to mention the availability of blue crabs and oysters, and I ain't talking about the Rocky Mountain variety. Not to mention, much of the land in the mountains is polluted by coal and natural gas extraction, expensive to purchase, or so far from a city with hospitals and such that you are totally isolated. I guess every family has their own concerns, we are putting our eggs in the Neck, where my family has a lot of history.

I would love to keep in touch with any permies in the region! You can find me on Fakebook or GPlus, or PM me. Thanks for the feedback!

My family and I are looking for property on the Northern Neck, just across the Bay - also for retirement/homesteading. Just saying hello, and wondering how any permies in the "Middle East" area are doing these days!

-Chris

My family and I are currently hunting for land on the Northern Neck of Virginia. We are looking for a minimum of 20 acres where my partner and I, our parents and siblings and children can settle down as an extended family homestead and restorative agriculture operation. I intend to apply permaculture, keyline, and agroforestry principles to create a perennial polyculture system that is friendly to the local wildlife as well as us humans and some domesticated animals. I hope we will be able to take advantage of the proximity to the Chesapeake Bay for supplementing food, transportation, and recreation.

Here is a list of our current criteria:

1) County land use policies: I do not want to be in a county or locality where the building inspectors will be breathing down our necks! I want us to be able to build modest homes for anyone in our family who wants to live with us, WITHOUT subdividing the property. I want to build barns and woodsheds, and dig small ponds, without a lot of hassle.

2) Elevation: We want something with some elevated area on the property, and preferably in a hilly area. There are large swaths of the Neck that are flat plowed agricultural land - we are not interested in these areas. The ground water will be contaminated, and we need elevation changes on our property for gravity feeding water. We need some south-facing slope as well, or anything that is not only north-facing.

3) Water: We don't need riverfront property (only because it would jack up the price per acre), but we would really like to have some frontage of a significant year-round freshwater lake, pond, or creek. We will test the ground water to make sure it is free of contaminants and drinkable.

4) Acreage: I think 20 acres is a minimum, to give us some land to work and some buffer from neighbors. Because I will be "farming" trees and woody shrubs, more land is better. I would rather have more land than a little land with an existing house. We really want a property that has existing hardwood trees, and some cleared space as well. I don't want city/county water, wouldn't drink it, and I don't care about electricity either. I want to build our house to have a small requirement for electricity, so a modest solar PV setup will power our house. We don't care for cable TV either. It would be ideal to have good Internet, but this is rare in rural areas. ClearWire or another cellular provider would work.

5) Location: We definitely like a remote feel, but proximity to medical facilities and stores would be nice.

6) We are still a bit fuzzy on our budget, but have a significant amount of cash available and would prefer no financing.

I would love to hear about leads on land, or just to know any permies in that general vicinity. I searched the web for "northern neck permaculture"... crickets. Will we be the first?

-Chris

Zone 7a, we have been pleasantly surprised to see ours come back the past two years! Dies back and regrows in the summer.

Hey Scott, sounds like an awesome place you've got there! My family and I are on a few acres outside of Richmond, VA. My partner and I are trying to learn about permaculture and transform the property we are on while we wrap up our responsibilities in the "default world" for the next several years. One day, I really hope we will end up doing something like what you're doing there!

I would love to come see what you're doing and help on something, but between our work and family schedules, and the demands of our own "farm" of dogs, chickens... complicated. Maybe we can take a little vacation down there this summer.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
Do followers of Zen practices have heroes? Probably not. Then it's probably a good thing I'm not very Zen, because your comments made you my hero, Chris.

Aw shucks, ma'am, you guys are my heroes... and if Zen Masters weren't so Zen, they would sue me for using their word! I have no formal training, and very little reading, in Zen. I did read The Tao of Pooh, but that was Tao and this is Zen (pun intended!). I do believe we would all benefit from a little nothing, a lot of simplicity, just take a break from trying to control everything in our environment, our lives, and just be grateful for what is.

Elisabeth Van Camp wrote:
I wake up in the husp area at the first break of dawn...

I love the positive visualization! I have heard of Transition groups using this sort of thing, writing future news articles and such, and I have thought how cool it would be to write the script for the revolution that needs to happen, to get humanity into harmony with the rest of terrestrial life. Maybe we need a thread, or a forum, for permaculture storytelling?

Anxiously awaiting my pie! Big Love to Paul and Jocelyn, everyone working on this site, and every one of you who is making it happen. I am educated, entertained, and inspired by so many of you!

Done, and done. Thank you so much, for pie, and for everything!

What better way to celebrate "meaningless drivel" than by speaking of... nothing!

This is based on a pep talk I frequently give myself, when I think I don't have enough time between all the stuff on my plate to do permaculture right, or fast enough, or awesome enough to keep up with everything I am reading and learning. There are so many choices in how to live, and raise food, in a healthy and ecologically regenerative way... endless choices, and sometimes it is agonizing to be so conscious that, there are more wrong choices than right ones available.

One of the first, and coolest, permaculture books I read is Masanobu Fukuoka's "One Straw Revolution". The following passage holds great meaning, though it speaks of nothing:

In this world there is nothing at all... I could see that all the concepts to which I had been clinging, the very notion of existence itself, were empty fabrications.

I turned this message into a sort of meditation to help me let go of control and anxiety. I do what I can do, which is sometimes nothing, knowing that my land is already perfect, and nothing I can conceive of or do will "improve" upon nature. I laugh at myself when I start to think of what I do there as "progress", AHAHAHAHA!!! It is a joke, really.

I used nothing as the beginning of my permaculture plan. I looked at what I could stop doing, rather than what I could do... I stopped "mowing the lawn", purchased a scythe. When I feel there is too much scything work, I realize - I don't need to use a mower, I just have too much grass! I stopped pulling weeds obsessively, and started eating them. What's wrong with that? NOTHING!

OK, I am sure this has been discussed here before, but I couldn't figure out search criteria to find it that didn't return umpteen gajillion hits...

Does this forum software support any sort of tagging, as in tagging a post as a category? Cause the thing is, I can look at an Appropedia article on something that is commonly discussed on permies like hugelkultur, or portable chicken coops, and if there are lots of threads started then I don't know which one to link on Appropedia. Also, if I see a great article on Appropedia and start a thread on permies, someone could miss my thread a month from now and start a much more in-depth discussion that will be overlooked when someone clicks that link.

It would be really awesome if we could tag stuff on permies, and then it would be super-duper easy to link in from the outside. Otherwise, I feel like that link is more of a liability, because another reorg can lose the thread (like what happened already), and lots of great content may be overlooked because we picked the thread that was not as active or meaningful as another. I think hierarchical organization of content like this is kind of limiting, anyways.

In the absence of tags, how should we decide which forum threads should be linked from Appropedia, or anywhere else? I feel like they should be somehow special, like a "sticky thread", or maybe in some cases an article is more appropriate. I guess we could all just use our best judgment... hope I'm not muddying the waters too much.

I have not added anything yet, but the hugelkultur entry pointed to this link (which redirects to the main permies www page), when I think it was intended to point to this one. I fixed that.

Did any of those old links get broken from a software upgrade, or forum reorg? We might want to check other places... or use Google to search them out. I will look at some more stuff there tomorrow.

We are still 9-to-5ers, working our way toward the permie life we want and struggling with time and balancing many different demands. We are weirdos wherever we go, too crunchy and weird for our worker bee friends, too hard-working and straight-laced to go to our "liberal" friends' parties, and never enough time to socialize with anyone, really, as we continue trying to support ourselves sustainably. I heard someone say on the permaculture listserv that "permaculturists are edge dwellers". True that!

To answer your question, I would have to say "little by little", sometimes excruciatingly so. We are working to design our property for the long haul, planning for water and food, raising chickens, building things and then tearing them down, starting projects that sometimes don't get finished, trying and failing and learning, planting trees. As a friend told me - "The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago; the second best time is now". We are reading everything we can get our hands on here in these forums and elsewhere, listening to Paul's podcasts, and refining the fine points of our plans.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
On the other hand, I have met some people who are very religious who also seem to be able to be open to changes and all-encompassing understanding (and even compassion). Somehow, these folks seem to be able to have understandings, and values, and even convictions, without the "I'm right, you're wrong" inflexibility. I think it might be rare, but I'm pretty sure I've seen it. I think people like this are truly inspiring in their quest for a deeper, richer life.

I agree Jocelyn, and these are people who can help build a better world, regardless of the "starting point" of their understandings based on these belief systems. If you are really sure that you are correct and someone else is incorrect, it becomes extremely difficult to listen to them with a truly open mind.

Fred's smart aleck remark does help us think about the extremes. If you have an absolute lack of certainty or belief, you probably don't accomplish much of anything. If you are completely convinced of the infallibility of some ideas, then you may miss important information. As Al Gore said to George W. Bush during their presidential debates (paraphrase from memory), "You can be decisive and be wrong". I think there is some kind of Zen-like state of "balanced uncertainty", something which could actually be a great leadership skill.

Morgan, I am now completely stuck on Watts! Many permaculture projects will languish while I sit and read, but I maintain that my sci-fi habit inoculates my work with perspective and vision. For me, the whole point of doing permaculture is to create a sustainable civilization and spread our terrestrial DNA across the stars!

Paul's recent podcasts made several references to fallacies and other "ick" that gets in the way of productive communication, and it reminded me of a video that everybody should watch (maybe several times):



It seems like Western culture is particularly addicted to certainty, to the point where many people feel uncomfortable "sitting on the fence" and letting ideas remain open to challenge. They feel pressured to "believe", turn ideas into facts, which becomes Truth. Then, they have created a religious stance which is closed to new ideas, and the binary thinking of "right versus wrong" causes them to alienate other people, some of whom may share many of their ideas and concerns. I do think that binary thinking has a place, just like competition does, in nature and in a framework for making decisions. Some of the things I heard Paul reference in the podcasts sound like instances of extreme criticism; while critical thinking is another important tool in our toolbox for survival and growth, it is important to remember that none of us is omniscient or infallible - yet we are all perfect.

I think about this stuff a lot - though we are fairly committed at this point to the land we have, at least for the next 5-10 years. Here are things I consider...

Priority #1: I would have to say family/community is the highest consideration. Permaculture techniques will allow lots of flexibility in other factors (even water, which is #2), but what happens to your project if one of you gets hurt? The first rule of resilience is redundancy - if I had a blank canvas to paint my perfect permaculture project, I would get at least a few households together who shared my goals.

Priority #2: Water. I agree with the concerns about groundwater contamination. In addition to coal, oil, and natural gas, be aware of nuclear power plants or processing facilities. A friend of mine spent over 30 years pouring his heart and soul into his land, only to find out that the adjacent river and pond were contaminated by plutonium from a nearby nuclear fuel processing facility.

Other stuff that is all important:

Location with respect to cities, markets for goods produced, other friends and family, and hopefully someplace with the least regulations and restrictions, awesome neighbors are priceless and bad ones can make your life a living hell.

Affordability, getting as much land as you can manage, including a fair amount for Zone 4 and 5 for forestry and habitat.

Geography (I love hills and mountains, not fond of my central VA coastal plains), climate, etc.

Helpful features on land, trees, buildings.

Great pics! I need to get some more stuff posted, I even have some sitting on my dumbphone that I just haven't uploaded. Thanks for sharing!

I hesitated to post this crappy video, but a great man once said, "Crappy video is better than no video". So here it is: our new and improved chicken coop 2.0:



We built it to be as lightweight as possible, but sturdy enough for year-round accommodations. We do have lots of critters in our area that love chicken dinner. Our summers get pretty hot, and winters are mild, so we think this will do the trick. I can pull it myself over reasonable terrain, not sure if mama bear will be able to move it alone. Finding the right wheels was the biggest pain in the arse, but these little guys (contributed by mama after she found me cursing at the twisted ruins of the first craptastic-plastic pair) from a farm and feed store seem to be doing the trick.

This flock of a dozen are inside a paddock enclosed by portable electric fencing (not shown). Right now they are young (~ 3 months) and small enough that we're using 100 linear feet of fencing (we have another 100 around if needed), and will move their paddock at least once per week.

Next projects:

lazy-permie chicken water supply from rainwater collection (using Avian Aqua Miser watering nipples)

portable composter/BSF larvae chicken snack shack

Our quest for world domination through permaculture continues...

It would be instructive to replay every discussion of this ethic in a universe where the phrase "fair share" was never used - that seems to touch a hot button for some people. One of the reasons I dislike "politics", as the word is understood commonly, is that the whole concept is designed to divide people rather than uniting them. I have my own ideas about how those conversations could be conducted more productively... but this is neither the time or place for that discussion, because permaculture ain't politics! Wow, that makes things really easy. Now we can just talk about permaculture.

I like what Geoff Lawton says about getting your own experiences with feeding yourself, because I find this alters my perspective and saves a lot of time I may have spent arguing about ideas that suddenly seem ridiculous. I also like what Jack says about permaculture being anarchistic, though since that is also a hot button word and some folks have preconceived notions about it, I will say "apolitical". I would also say that permaculture was never intended to be written in stone tablets, so the words we use to define the ethics may change to better state the ideas behind them.

I believe there is a way to understand the three ethics of permaculture as a philosophy that is as practical as it is altruistic. I find it difficult to separate my personal permaculture philosophy into the three ethics - maybe somebody should reword the whole thing and call it a different name (wink wink nudge nudge). The more I practice the principles, the harder it is to separate the Earth in #1 from the People in #2, and the harder it is to conceive of any definition of a "successful" individual or entity that is not also reinvesting profits in the sources of their wealth. If there is a core teaching of my permaculture-y thing, it is this: What works will grow, and what grows is good. The ethics support the principles and the healthy functioning of all our enterprises; the only difference is the ethics require a longer view on success.

Whatever your opinion is regarding someone else's farm or business, the good news about anything that is unsustainable, by definition, it can't last. That being said, it is a poor investment for me to spend my time criticizing other people's farms or philosophies. So, I'm going to get back to work now. Great discussion, thanks everybody!

The techno stuff that drives me crazy are the 'dumb' programs: I spent two hours yesterday alone putting a tiny amount of data into one system and I just got back from a workshop to learn how to use another new system. I'm training another person on the new system and having to explain "don't touch this button or it will clear out your profile, don't touch this button or it will clear out your certificates, and you can't make typos or errors because they cannot be corrected and will become a permanent part of the record". This is a classic case of where someone like Paul needs to go in and look at how or why money got spent on these systems in the first place.

Jeanine, I have seen WAY more bad software than good software. I have written both. People who want software and use it are frequently isolated from the process of its creation, so it is created without their feedback. People who write software have many goals other than customer satisfaction. People who hire software developers are often easily fooled into thinking someone is a good software developer when they are not. People who sell software- well, they are like most people who sell anything, profit driven. Lately I have begun applying permaculture principles in order to help me understand the ecosystem where software "grows"; it turns out software needs sunlight (transparency), air (feedback), healthy soil (healthy organization), and water (talented workers maybe?). Mistakes are compost.

I am very computer literate (used to work in the field from developer to Chief architect, director, you get the idea) but few things make me happier than puttering in a garden, planting a new tree, or walking through our hundreds of acres of reforestation.

Fred, I am right where you used to be, a software architect hoping I will be able to make the leap to full-time dirt farmer in 5 years or so. Hell, I don't even get to see most of the money - it goes to my ex and my kids, and I don't even miss it because I don't want money. I want TIME. I get frustrated at being stuck between these worlds. I am actually struggling to make time to interact with folks on here, because otherwise I am so stuck between my 9-5 job, my family, and trying to get *anything* done on the "farm". I would love to spend all my time "observing and interacting" to better understand my farm ecosystem, kibbutzing with you folks, or getting the message out like Paul is doing.

I have begun applying permaculture to these frustrations as well, and it turns out that all these different areas of my life are helping me develop myself. As Fukuoka said, "The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings". Now I recognize that I am the tree, and all these seemingly opposing forces in my life are my "edges" of opportunity. My farm is making me a better software developer and father, and my knowledge of patterns, resilience, and simplicity in software design are making me a better farmer. There is value in diversity. This is probably my favorite quote from my favorite author, Robert Heinlein:

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

Y'all keep up the good work!

Sometimes an artist goes above and beyond their calling, whether it is music or visual media or performance art, and they use their powers to promote radical awesomeness, universal love, and cultural change. Who inspires you to change your reality?

My first choice: the great, the singular, the almighty Bill Hicks. (RIP)

Just a ride

The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we... kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok... But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.