Crop rotation is not easy everywhere.... like when you have to take into account sun exposure, protection from the wind...
Of course when you have a large flat garden allowing you to plant anything anywhere you like, you can rotate more easily!

Dean Brown wrote:The man who does Back to Eden gardening has potatoes in the same spot continuously. He uses deep woodchip mulch. He harvests by hand and replaces the largest potato in the hole for the next crop as he harvests. That's all he does except schlep in the woodchip.

Deep, or thick, mulch?
In what climate?

Joseph, thanks so much! I do have potato seeds and thought there never got to maturity because of the hard and green fruit I find!
Now I am going to keep them and sow them!
Let's see if I can convince people about the interest of doing so...

I am curious about your way to plant them.... I just made an answer to this old thread about the best way to grow potatoes, and it had few answers and no longer term feed-back....
https://permies.com/t/48075/growing-potatoes#764466

Maybe can you add something there also about the way to plant seedlings or of you sow directly etcetc?

The title is good enough to not make a new thread!

So... how does it work with hay/straw/mulch covering?

- Do you cover a bit with some soil?
and how deep?
- Does mulch cover enough to not have green potatoes?
- Does the mulch stays well enough over the line without flattening and spreading?
- what's about putting some soil over the mulch?

Another idea: a potato field looks "wavy". Is it possible to use the natural furrow between 2 rows to sow something else while harvesting the potatoes? Or is the harvesting itself making this difficult?

Here wherre I live, it is time to plant them, as they are a winter crop due to being frost-free meditarranean, and people use some motorisation, and I want to find a way to grow some potatoes without having to do that much digging work, either for planting or harvesting.
Thanks!

Absolutely all tips that were mentionned are about regulating the autonomic nervous system! We do not write only with the cortex - ideas - but we also discover what we write, on the way... because the ANS is precisely the one part of our brain out of three that screen our knowledge and memory. Or else there would not be creativity. This part of the brain has no word nor ideas, but it is about what we call heart or guts because it talks with the feft-sense, through our physiology and our sensations.

The source of block and stimulation is actually the same...

We need some excitement to write, but also some peace, and even better said, a balance between security and some urgent motivation. There is danger and curiosity of the unknown to come, which stimulates and blocks too! This balance and the way to reach it will differ from person to person, though based on the same inner system. It happens the same in life, when we want to do something and we cannot. It usually means, from the nervous system point of view, that we have reached a state of internal activation/mobilization that is too strong for us. It is 100% individual and spontaneous.

It is like in electricity, too much makes the fuses come off until we lower the voltage!
And not enough voltage is like what happens with old batteries in your clock, it cannot keep up.

When the block is during the writing, it can also mean that our inner wise knows something we already wrote is not matching what we now want to write. So it can be a good idea to re-read what has been written, and start to modify when you feel something is not fluent, (like for example for me, it is when having to read myself twice to understand myself). Usually the rewriting will attract like a magnet, "THIS is what I really meant" or wanted to convey etc. And even if there is no re-writing, reading what is already the past should be enjoyable and can put us in the flow again.

So globally it is about getting some rest and find something enjoyable. The range of choice to reach this goal is infinitely wide!

Sarah, you have mentionned so many things that have to do with the vagus nerve that I need to mention it! This nerve can be stimulated and there are articles popping up with tips.

Also wanted to say that this matches also for me....
"It was really, really, really hard for me to get it through my thick skull that there are actually people out there who don't mind hurting someone to take advantage, because it's alien to how I was raised. So when I learned that through experience, it took a few rounds for me to comprehend." I used to say that my parents did not prepare me properly about life!

Sarah Koster wrote: I guess it's easier to see and read someone's facial expression if they're not towering above me like the clouds, and I'm so bad at reading social cues and body language that every little bit of help counts.

Ages 7-15 literally no one touched me, because I didn't let people hug me etc. Age 15 I was clinically psychotic, maybe because no one touched me?

My only early childhood trauma was almost dying from asthma a few times

get super lovey dovey attached to someone within 2 hours of meeting them.

I think my own social anxiety is most intense in situations where ritual behavior rather than creative interaction are relied on, where the particular ritual behaviors that will be required is unpredictable.

In America we have a mixture of cultures and everybody has their own idea of what's the right or wrong way to act, what to say etc. in a given situation.

when you don't know what you're up against, or what ritual phrases and gestures are gonna be directed towards you from whom, it's hard to be prepared, especially when there's not a clear formula to follow.

Following your points:
- Facial expressions and reading them is developped by the ventral branch of the vagus nerve, the one that is fully ready not before 6 months of age.
- Yes, touch is very important for the social wire of the autonomic nervous system (ANS) Singing with other people or even alone is helpful when touch is not available or does not feel good for any reason.
- Asthma has a lot to do with the vagus nerve as well.
+ almost dying is a big experience when we know how much we need safety! Having familly support helps to really feel we are fully back to life and celebrate it! You might actually have had very good souvenir of noticing the love of your parents through their reaction to your asthma attacks...
- It seems that your inner wise show you that being attached is very welcome! It is a deep fundamental for us mammals to feel safe, just look at animals like puppies piling up... Look at videos of otters and tell me if you can resist not melting, or if you want to reincarnate as one!
- The ability to feel what is socially needed is also a capacity of the vagus, and again the ventral branch. I laughed when I learned I was wrong to think that other children had learned it and I had not! It is not cognitive, though some learning can replace and help if we do not have the feeling.
Our sense of inner safety needs to get some social cues, and I fully agree that we live in a world that makes it more difficult than in a culture where we seldom meet strangers. It is for sure very safe to count on people we know since birth or since their birth... I do not live in my culture, and I can see that it makes it difficult for me. At the same time, as I am not very good at trusting my instinct about social cues, I know I can use my being a foreigner as an excuse!!! Actually, I can read cues, but I am hesitant to trust them and I need to check out.

raven ranson wrote:What about phrasing it like "one explanation for XYZ could be..."  or "I've noticed that sometimes..." or "one theory I heard for this ...."

That way it leaves room for other peoples experiences and opinions.  

Your posts are well thought out, just sometimes people experiences are different so it's good to phrase it as one of many explanations rather than a scientific fact.

If saying "one explanation could be", then I see no problem... For me, it is implied automatically whenever I say or somebody else says anything! Just read it in my signature...

About the polyvagal theory, people can think that if called "theory" it means it is not a scientific fact, but in science, when something is called a theory, it does not mean hypothesis! I quoted the book, this work is a masterpiece,, already used by many, and explaining several techniques that evolved in parallel. It explains a lot of animal behaviours etc etc. This is a big help for permaculture that I want to share, and I can see this is not so easy so better refer to the book, after all it is around 250 pages...

And it is a theory I have been studying and applying for 8 years. I believed in it right away because I am an animal behaviourist and it made sense right away.

Burra Maluca wrote:I'm afraid your post is still far from meeting publication standards - a moderator is likely to contact you shortly to discuss the matter.  

I suspect your professional training has narrowed your outlook somewhat as there are many, many naturally introverted people who are not damaged in any way.  Your writing seems to exclude this possiblility and your edits have left the post worse than when it started.

I think it has widened my outlook and given me more freedom... and the absence of this knowledge in mainstream science is part of the same as pesticides, contamination and all  what permaculture fights for. It damages. And it is very different when you say that we are - or are not - damaged. The guilt is somewhere else! It is outside us. In my case it was the owner of the lab where my mom should not have worked pregnant.

Also, where starts and end a damage? The word itself does not account for the intensity or the scale. Some small damages are not seen. It was my case and I would never have figured out that the chemicals that touched me were the cause of my shyness. I am not ashame of having had damage, it was not my fault! My other died last year from a type of lymphoma aid to be mostly from chemicals.... we were hurt at the same time. I knew for long that my liver had been damaged, but nobody told me that also my autonomic nervous system had been damaged!

So I never meant that introverts ARE damaged but that they HAVE been damaged, and we all had some sort of damaging accident! I know absolutely nobody who has not been damaged in any way. So there cannot be any link with "being less than perfect". I see it as impossible.

And this is a relief when people can see the connexion. I have guessed it for several persons, and including sometimes the type of accident that was involved!!! I also know the difference that makes the reaction to any damage/accident show as extrovertion or introvertion, but that would be out of scope. Introvertion is one type of adaptation, it is mine, and again, it has scales like a thermometer.

When you say "I suspect your professional training has narrowed your outlook", is this suspicion about me not being honest, and is "narrow" a way to say I am less than perfect? Burra, you have once before told me I was not honest about how I had multiple times edited a post or two, based on you seeing the time of edition, and I had to justify about leaving my windows open as Ii was transfering some content from one place to another... That might be why you suspect me? I know you have shared in a topic where I posted too, that you are an introvert. I do NOT mean to challenge you if you think this is genetic for example. I am on the same side of the thermometer as you! I am a safe and honest person but I cannot make you believe it.

So... I WANT TO SHARE ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS NOT KNOWN because if it was, it would PROVE THE DAMAGE OF CHEMICALS! And more.
This is a big piece for permaculture.
This is a big piece for relationships in general.

Porges has worked with autistic children, to apply his discovery. From the polyvagal perspective, he says that autism and ptsd have in common the difficulty to feel safe even in safe places. Let me quote him about the problem with mainstream ideas....
p88 of the pocket guide to the polyvagal theory.
"I decided that if I focussed on auditory hypersensitivities, I could move into an area that would be helpful and wouldn't be viewed as controversial, such as trying to cure autism ... Since the diagnistic assumes a lifelong disorder based on an unidentified genetic cause... the psychiatric community interprets a reversal of symptoms as being due to faulty diagnosis and not a true recovery."
I have reversed fibromyalgia and a near aspergers state by knowing it was not as in my head as they make us believe, and the autonomic nervous system is the chief of orchestra of all other systems in the body. (Only the cell itself might be above it... and maybe some unknown energy I dont know...). We are still free to keep what we want of our personality, but I think it is very open and full of hope to say that there has been a form of physiological fear because of a threat to our safety! You can even see genetics as a form of threat if some genes are not the best for us! Fear is a very healthy reaction to have so that we can safe ourself. Anxiety, that I never had, is more when the sympathetic system has been triggered and blocked at one point. All forms of calmer reactions, that I tend to have, show that the parasympathetic system was more triggered. You will always see both forms of reactions in any big accident/threat involving different persons. I used to be quite immune to fear and anger, but I discovered it did not mean they were not there. Actually, it was in the pains I had, and I still have a slow metabolism, on the way to get it better! All what we have no access to with our cortex, is the domain of the ANS (and the limbic too, phylogenetically between cortex and ANS).

Gurkan Yeniceri wrote:I was doing keto as 2 of my good friends lost tremendous amount of weight.

Than I went to my specialist doctor for checkups and mentioned keto.

She said, research proved that people doing low carb diet die younger

Then I started thinking; too much of anything is poison, isn't it. Eating just meat, fat etc. no matter if they are organic, grass fed, ethical is not a solution.

The solution is (in my humble opinion) to eat small amounts of each and every food group. This is actually dictated where you and your ancestors have raised. In India, lentil and rice, in China, mostly rice, in Middle east, wheat, in Europe, potato, in Americas, corn and pumpkin are the main sources of carbs. Your intestines evolved to process these carbs.

1- your body has to choose between burning fat or carbs, and therre are some hints about having to be high in either of the 2 instead of almost the same. It is also possible to change between summer and winter.
The body can need 3 days to change fuel! So it is tiring maybe to go from one to the other too often?

2- My organic acid test proved I am not good at burning carbs.... and no problem for fats.

3- A diet can be temporary, if it is for healing, like for example suppressing carbs to solve SIBO.

4- The tradition argument is not always right, though it should... It is ok to eat as your ancesters when you really do (in India they changed the quality of the ingredients in some subtle ways that can mess up with the balance they had before, like having insects-free grains and thus not enough vitamine B12). But when you still have the recipes but not with the exact quality of ingredient, then...
It is fine also when you had no antibiotics! In Italy they say you need to eat "al dente", which means that you leave the center a bit hard = RS the famous "resistant starch"! Then you colon is supposed to have the right bacterias there to ferment and make some sort of fat they can give you up to 500 Kcal a day.

Now what if you lack them because of antibiotics or having had your appendice removed? (it is the reserve of bacterias when the colon's were wiped out)
Now what if you have any problem making those bacterias go up into the small intestine and fermenting where you don't want fermentation?

raven ranson wrote:Xisca,  Is it possible it has something to do with the way it was said?  Maybe it was said as if it was the only explanation instead of one way of understanding the situation.  

I haven't read the post in question, but I do know it's caused a lot of negative response which is unusual for your posts.  Perhaps what you said hit a nerve or didn't leave room for other people's ideas.  

Thanks for your very kind answer... It is very opportune to talk about hitting a nerve for this topic! Absolutely nobody shares about the ANS, and I think it would be fundamental for permaculture actually... Why our society is hiding fundamental informations about the biggest system of our body? It is the chief of digestive, respiratory, circulatory, immune systems and more! ...or else I would not spend some time sharing what I know! When we express ideas, this never means others ideas are "bad", they can express them as well. I share my explanation, but it is the one of some scientists. In this case I insist that there is scientific knowledge behind and that it was more than ideas but informations. I chose to edit and add more explanation.

The topic is actually simple, but complicated because of the current paradigm, though the science is there. My training was 3 years long, and I chose to do it twice because I wanted to understand all the steps while having already learn all of it. So I can understand the reaction.

So, we concluded with the interest of permaculture: produce, eat and live locally!  There is some potential danger when transporting food, especially when already cooked.
All those spreading diseases also show the difference between small size farms Vs big concentrations of animals.

Maybe people do not see where the problem is for animals because we suffer from the same problem quite often? Many people are used to live in not ideal conditions, packed in buildings with noise and contamination around. How can people want to fight for animals right, when themselves do not even beneficiate from these same rights?

Yes, this topic shows a big parallel between what our species share with others!

(Edited 1st for a typo, then reorganisation of the ideas)

I have just shared about a topic I have some professional training about, and it was said to "not meet our publishing standards". I review my post, and sorry, there nothing wrong, only scientific explanation about the autonomic nervous system! I was not "suggesting that introverts are less than perfect and 'damaged' in some way". I have explained the reason why we can be introverts when we had some very early shock trauma! We are not less than perfects, though we have been damaged....

I don't see why explaining that some people have been damaged by an accident is not acceptable.
A damage comes from the outside, so it is not the same as saying that "somebody is less than perfect", don't you think so?

Please be a little more understanding about what people take time to share about, when this is a subject you do not know about!

Maureen, I am so sorry you left your farm!

Will power is not the best aliate, if it leads to feel guilty or ashame for not having enough... If you have stress, which is a body reaction and not psychological, after all, when we live in not so good conditions, we are indeed living in a relative lack of the necessary security.... then you might have cortisol issues and even cortisol resistance same as what can happen with insuline. It happens that the lack of sugar can drive the cortisol quite high, and also mess with the thyroid. If you are a bit hypo then sugars are quite useful indeed.

I would advise you to look for a hair test through TEI lab. It will tell you many things! I lacked phosphorus, showing I lacked stomach acid to be able to break proteins into useful amino-acids. I took betain hcl and digestive enzymes.

Then I also went progressive, and kept some greens for a long time, like bitters, for my liver and stimulating natural acid. Coconut oil was useful too.


At the moment, a carnivore diet has not solved all my issues, but it is indeed efficient for SIBO.
And even a vegan friend admitted that he saw me with more energy since I eat carnivore...

Jan White wrote:This situation you describe, along with your feelings about it, and the fact that you keep talking about fear really makes me think that what you're talking about is social anxiety.  That's definitely something you can work on, and it sounds like you've come a long way with it.

Introversion isn't about fear.  It's an innate trait, and trying to be extroverted when you're an introvert just wouldn't be healthy.  You can be introverted and socially anxious (and so many people have social anxiety that it's probably really common), but they're two different things.

Even if you are sure that introversion isn't about fear, there is the possibility that there is something about a type of fear though... Fear is good and protective, and also, not all fear are felt. I am an introvert, not a big one but still... and I remember being immune to both fear and anger. I was just not enough in contact with needed defensive responses! Fear is usually not the best word, and I would rather talk about "reaction to a lack of safety". Some  people can react to an unsafe situation by being extrovert too. Extroversion is just another choice of behaviour, by our organic intelligence, and it is driven by the ANS (autonomic nervous system), for those who want to enquire further! This system is driving all other systems in the body, and still, it is pretty much overlooked and unknown...

Regulating our emotions is different from changing who we are, and there is no need to change from one side to the other. We are all either more on the side of the sympathetic activating system or the side of the para-sympathetic system. Brake or accelerator... introvert or extrovert. Even when it is not innate, there is no problem and no pressure to change it. After all, if we are permies, we try to work with nature don't we? We cannot skip this important system. We are mammals and we also still have features from ancient fish, and we also obey some rules as all species. I will not say more because a post will not do justice to what needs a book... The pocket guide to the polyvagal theory is a good one, by Stephen Porges (and in science, theory does not mean hypothesis. He is very estimated. He also created an audio program to improve auditive hypersensitivities and is speaking in favor of changes to make hospitals / medical care less challenging).

What comes out since a few years, is that all that has to do with "social engagement" has to do with the way our body manages our vagus nerve. It happens that Porges was the one who discovered that the ventral branch of the vagus innerves the face, is responsible for having and reading social cues, and regulating our heart (faster on inhale, slower on exhale, the more variation the better). This branch fully myelinate around 6 months of age. All that happen since conception, to us and/or our mother, will participate in shaping us without us knowing it, and creates the wonderful differences between humans! This can make us think twice about what means innate, as those early experiences are known to even modify the expression of our genes. This expression has even been found to be reversible at any moment of life. It is not cognitive but physiologic.

This system regulates itself all the time even if we do not know it, and it is the same system that takes care of our health (thus his voice about care in medical system). So it can be a good idea to regulate its pendulation between activity and rest, and in no way as Jan said, in no way it can be healthy to force a change. We do change but it is spontaneous when we do. I would not mean that we do not need to find ways to feel better and be comfortable with our type! The difference between introversion and social anxiety has to do with the % of the different branches of the ANS that are involved at this moment.

Dale Hodgins wrote:Taking themselves off the market for a long time, because of something bad that happened. I know a woman who had an unhappy breakup when she was 22. She went out on her next date when she was 45. And and now she constantly laments that she never had children and much of life passed her by, while she was licking her wounds.

Yes, trauma work is not only for war veterans...
And it can be done much quicker through any somatic method, also called bottom up methods, because they tackle the nervous system in the order of their ancienty in us. The ANS was first, then limbic, and last is the cortex. Top down methods start with understanding and talking about the story, which can make you understand and still not be able to change anything.... when we do not considere the story but what got stuck in the ANS (autonomic nervous system), then we can unblock the nervous system. In particular we need to finish all the defensive responses we could not have, before we can stop to be triggered by all that might look like "it is going to happen again". This is a normal reaction, and over-riding those reactions with our powerful cortex is a big little known mistake! And sometimes we cannot over-ride anyway... What can take years to self-regulate, can take very little time when we can find a safe place to re-negotiate whatever was left into our ANS.

This is a major work to do, and should be socially encouraged, and this is not even psychotherapy at all. Animals all do this when they get any type of accident! They let their body tremble and shake and have many reactions. If you have animals or even pets like dogs, what they do is very visible, that is why they are big helps for healing. Actually, we can do this among humans. Safety is essential. And even when you are safe, what counts is to FEEL safe, and no cortex argument will make you feel safe when your ANS does not!

elle sagenev wrote:You'll never be happy with anyone until you are happy with and love yourself.

This is often said so... but we are a social species, so if we are single, we have to keep the necessary social relationships in any other way than a couple.

I think the main bad reason to be in  relationship, is to get our necessary "social engagement" needs...
(check the polyvagal theory from Stephen Porges)

....which unfortunately means that our society fails to provide the necessary, and thus pushes people into relationships to fulfill this healthy need.

Mark Tudor wrote:- You aren't going to "fix" or "tame" another person, especially someone from your past. Ever catch yourself saying "they'd be great if they only changed A, B, C, and D... if they love me, they will change", or you meet someone new that has the same issues as someone from your past, and you date the new person thinking "this time it will be different, proving it wasn't my fault the last relationship failed"?

Dating people who all have the same issues is usually an attempt to resolve such a past issue.

This can be resolved by somatic personal work.
Just because wanting to resolve the past is an autonomic nervous system (ANS) feature. We all do this for everything, not only relationships. Repeatition is a sign of having to look for what is stuck in the ANS, and this is not accessible through pure cognitive work at all. The ANS got stuck on fight flight or freeze mode for one point of the story, and it can be tricky to find which exact point...

The ANS is wired to want to get the opportunity to "do what I could not". In accidents it is usually a movement, and in relationships it is often about saying something, or behaving differently. it can also be a suck defense movement if something bad happened.

Thanks all! I think we have a thorough answer, and I cannot think of anything more to add! ....though welcome if anybody has another good reason to add!

Especially, I think that all that pigs get from turning around a spot of forest is for sure much cleaner than most of what we can give... i take the same sort of precaution for myself. All the argumants are in the end exactly the same as for us! I am also as much a raw foodist as I can, but 100% is rarely the good choice, either for cooked or raw.

->  I especially appreciate to know which are the food that have to be cooked.

- potatoes
-> Is it the same for all starches, as for us? (apart from the aspect of getting them fat quicker, good point Lana!)

- cruciferous
(even guinea pigs avoid them)

- Spoiled or old food to a certain point.

Any other?

Su Ba wrote: I do set traps for rats and mongoose, which I cook before feeding them to the pigs. I cook them whole in an outdoor cooker in a large pot dedicated to pig food. I'm not above throwing a dead chicken into the cook pot either, feathers and all.

haha, I had the same idea already for hens! They love cooked whole rats... so they can eat it easier. Lizards are easier raw than a bigger animal.

Are pigs' digestive system more resistant to molds than us? Spoiled food is a good source of good food. Take sweet potatoes, here they keep less than potatoes, and the main problem is that they start to get moldy. i gave her one, thinking that she would manage to eat what she wants... but with the soil, I could not see what she ate or not...

thomas rubino wrote:Give them good food ,clean water , love and attention. Let them be happy piggys  while they are here and give them an honorable quick end when their day comes, thanking them for their sacrifice.  

Very well said, I fully agree.

I am also aware that no pig would be alive without them being for food, same as all animals we raise. Not eating them is what most shortens their life!
I would not decide to kill them before conception...
And the luxury to have animals as pets is just not very sustainable for the earth....

Su Ba and Thomas, thank you very much for your answers full of kindness!

Play.... They like the same toys as dogs! And I also know the tip to give food "hard to get at" for dogs... (I am a dog behaviorist and clicker trainer...)

I feel enough in the food chain to be able to handle attachment and veganism is probably partially stepping from the lack of this sort of consciousness in children, thus making it a shock to discover that meat eating goes with killing. Plants are killed too, but the less close to us, the easiest. Few people in our world would be able to eat apes for example. And pigs are genetically very close to us, enough for being able to give us organs for grafting...

I have just discovered pigs also like fat, and can indulge too much if they can, enough to get a "fast transit"!

Mark Dirksen wrote:I think Xisca was referring to this study: https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/food-features/how-does-pork-prepared-in-various-ways-affect-the-blood/ (definitely not vegan propaganda ). This seems to indicate that eating unmarinated/uncured pork has an effect on blood coagulation or clotting. Which apparently is a bad thing..

I think they wanted to do a follow-up study, but to my knowledge this has happened yet.

Yes thanks! I do not keep track of what stays in my mind! I eat a carnivore diet, so I would not believe any of the vegan propaganda! I could even write a book about the vegan propaganda... I agree for individuals to choose their diet, but not to use arguments that try to make others afraid!

Walter, I am still interrested to know what is the curing process you use, if this is not fermentation.... I donot think that nitrates salts were used "before". But fermenting like the french saucisson, or whole ham, could be done only with certain weather features. Where I live, people used only salt, because the climate is maritime.

No, pH as I mentionned was not for shelf life, as it was food preparation just before eating.

It happens that I think this information about fermenting can be right. Not only pork had been banned (and the origin of taboos are always based either on health, or on stopping people for some time, when a wild population was lowering. It was a way to help people "do something" with less effort than forcing oneself).

I thought it was about ancient times hygiena, but then I was puzzled when I learned that there are other places in the world where pork is not banned but not allowed to some people when ill, and curiously especially with auto-immune diseases...

Well, we will think about it.... as I have planned to practise some clicker training with her haha! Yes she will be able to crash out of the place... She already went through the hen's fence when she arrived frightened. She was brought up almost wild in the forest, and the guy just put the poor thing in a bag to bring her by car...

Now she is tightened with a sort of harness, like a dog with a cable going through the yard, and she does not bother at all. Actually, the goal is to grow food for her and then put the cable outside and move her from place to place. This is not safe to free her more than this of course. I know she can be trained as much as a dog but then how can we eat her!

I forgot to say that she loves ripe avocados! Very good mix with bananas (lol I told her I would not put cacao in her cream!) Luxury pig!

thomas rubino wrote:There's a thing about piggys and water...  they like to stand in it and while they are there why not go potty...    

Cold water cools down and stimulates the vagus nerves in mammals, thus triggering digestion. So I think they must have some reflex going on and would not even notice they poo.
Wash your hands with cold water, and usually if your bladder is already full, it will give you some urgency!

Here, pig slop also included the first washing water of plates and dishes...

I don't know and will ask if they serve the soup cold or still warm!

Here people cook a soup for pigs.... and I think they do so because they put there all the "bad" potatoes! If you say they do not really like them... maybe they do when they are cooked? lol I understand them!
So the traditional pig soup has potatos and cabagge...

I would not give any processed meat! I have read you prefer your pigs vegetarians, and I think that if they are omnivores, it means they need to have some meat. At least bugs in their fruits veggies.

Here people dry fruits like figs and say to never feed them dry as it gives dangerous gases, and so yes, they soak them until they start to ferment.

Thanks for your answer!
Our DE here is not food grade but the packet says it is ok to give to animals. And we have kitties treated with it, so they also eat some, and no problem so far.

I still have to find a way to keep her water clean, as she goes into it!

Yes she is alone, but the dog and cats visiting around, and 2 hens on the other side of the fence. The goats are out of sight. No neighbours!

Walter, I am very respectful about what you wrote in the pig forum, but for this, I need to check with you....
What is the real difference between cured and uncured? Is it about FERMENTATION?

I have come across some informations about the NEED for pork to be fermented, or else there is a health hazard. By memory, I think it was about aggregation of something in the blood.... It could thus explain one of the real reason of pork prohibition in some societies... if they did not know how to transform this meat to be safe! So it seems it was not only about parasites!

Pork seems to become fully edible for us after fermenting, which is the case of cured meat, that you can keep out of the fridge.
For eating the fresh meat, there is also a solution: marinade. Wine and vinegar are themselves fermented products...

I have no idea if lemon juice is ok, and I would be interrested to know this....
I have also no idea how long is enough marinade.

Taylor Cleveland wrote:
I can get oats for $6.00 per 50lb right down the road. I have been thinking about soaking/fermenting 100-200lbs in a plastic drum once a week and just scooping out of that to cut the layer feed 50/50 for both the pigs and chickens. They will both get supplemental feed from forging (we rotate our chickens too). I guess I could even soak it overnight too, just to make it easier to digest.

Fermenting is ok for animals?
Or is it better to drain and sprout? Or would we loose nutrients from the water?

Do you also mean that dry cereals are hard to digest for pigs?

Yes, cereals have polyinsaturated fats and get rancid even before we can notice.
You can say that pig will eat it... BUT it will change the quality of the fat you will get from your pigs!

I have asked old people, and not so old, around, about the change of pig fat the last 30 years. The answer is: Now, pig fat is more liquid and whiter.
The right fat should tend toward being a bit more like butter, more solid and more yellow!

The more you feed cereals, the more you will get unsaturated fats from your pig, which is not what we want, unless we have fallen into the trap of believing that omega 6 are good, and they are not.

Pigs and also hens will be better with some animal protein and fat in their diet. I use lizards and rats, instead of giving expensive venoms, I trap. Then insects should also be part of their diets, which is in favor of growing veg food "more than organic": with not even organic pesticides!!!

At the moment my piglet eats prickly pears and fresh figs. I already know that dry figs have to be reduced or else they can fill with air and die, so do goats if they find lots of dry figs under a tree.
I have bought some organic corn too for a start.

We have no acorns, but she loves to suck an old ripe banana as milk!
I have planned to plant sweet potatoes and all kind of roots like jerusalem artichoke and beets and turnip.

I can buy organic barley: is it possible to give it germinated? Is it better for pigs to give them plain dry seeds?

I have planned, for protein, to trap rats, mice and lizards.
Do you think it is ok and should I boil them for parasites?

I have diatomaceous earth, how much is good to give and how?

Her poo is really black and dry, I have no idea if it is a good sign or shows constipation...

All butchered and hunted animals have adrenaline!

After a wound, I guess adrenaline (or cortisol and more) levels go down. I also do not think it spoils the meat nor is bad to eat.

Hello,
I have my first pig... I am sure I will get informations from people still raising them traditionnally.
One point puzzles me though...
¿¿ why people usually COOK a soup for pigs?

I have tried to figure out possible reasons, if anybody can tell me which are true or not and any other reason for doing so, thanks!

- When you mix, you can get an untasty food eaten at the same time.
Or even slightly spoiled food?

- Cooked food is bland, thus a faster eating with less spoiling.
- A soup is liquid and they will drink without spoiling the water.
- some food can be more edible, like starch.
Can they eat raw potatoes?
- You can add meat with no risk of parasites.

So, would it be that cooking is useful when you raise pigs in a small area with dung on the floor? Is the main reason to avoid food contamination?
Are there some more edible food when cooked?
Is it for adding meat?

Dale Hodgins wrote:Get him to explain what went wrong in his last relationship. Some things are acceptable. ...
But if he tells you that she was ...
... I don't care if those addiction issues stopped 80 years ago, I am done at that point. I think people being in recovery is just fine, but let them date other people who are in recovery.

Nicole Alderman wrote:Gotta say, my husband is a recovered addict. In the whole time we've been dating/married, he's never touched any of the substances. That means he's been clean for 14 years. It probably helps that I've never drank/smoked/done-any-drugs and have no inclination to. Many people can obviously drink responsibly... but it probably will never work out to have a recovered addict with a responsible drinker.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that addiction is a disease. It's like many diseases (such as Crohn's) that you can keep in remission. But, it's never gone. And you mess up, and you're back out of remission.

So, my advice would be to exercise extreme caution with recovered addicts, and to not get involved unless you're willing to support them by not drinking. But, still, I don't think everyone needs to rule them out entirely.

Pamm pamm, my case here too! Don't rule them out, they are strong enough to have gotten through this, and this is precious! It builds a personnality that is worth feeling thankfulness for!
But yes, I drink zero, I even avoid vinegar and fruits...
With my previous BF, we were "drinking responsably", which I did only because of him, and I did not see the problem, and it was.
So he knows that I feel bad even if he drinks a beer, and he knows this is REAL, I mean that I do not want to put pressure "for him". I do not try to fix him, but me. The difference is huge.

Dale, I understand your fear. We also fear most what we do not know. Actually we all have addictions, and 2 points here:
- it depends to what you are addicted
- the best way is to have many different "good" addictions! You can be addicted to be in the garden.... and even this will spoil a relationship if you are too addicted and to only this!
If you don't know this: education through positive reinforcement is based on addiction...

About being a desease: this is a social engagement issue, coming from the lack of support and the lack of nice relationships with other fellow human beings! We should be addicted to tenderness and sweetness, and I do not mean in food...

They believe it's a spiritual thing, I believe it's a social reinforcement thing, but either way, many seem to be effectively cured. Go Jesus!

Yes spirituality is about this... it is about the autonomic part of us, our inner wise, the "brain" they discovered we have in our heart and guts, and it is mainly the vagus nerve.... That easy but stupefying that we do not know it more!

Guys, we will never get involved with anybody that does not match our inner unconscious system! Discover yourself and the others at this level, and you will know all you need. This is what means sayings like "the heart can see what the eyes cannot see"!

Joseph, I am interested and I am also in a dry climate.

i can also help with local corn, we have local varieties, and I can check if they have this charactericitic, if only I know how to check!

My goal is to feed animals first. I have imported organic corn, so it costs me 17 E for 25 kgs, much more than chemical gmo corn!

Phil Escott is a blogger who cured psoriasis with artritis with carnivore diet.

I am also using some onion for taste and did not think it could be prebiotic... i also use lemon juice often. The other day I bought fish ans shells. I cooked the shells with onion and an overripe lemon (I had to peel the moldy like roquefort skin!). the result was wonderful! I cooked the fish and add the "lapas" with the sauce on top....

I have just found goat "suero", that is left after making cheese, because it has almost no casein, and will see if I can have it, as cheese constipate me.

I tryed prickly pears this summer, and figs, and that was a disaster, I felt so tired!

Hooooooooo, and I have bought a little black pig! She loves to eat prickly pears instead of me! And she sucks bananas as if milk, so funny! Tomorrow I eat 2 cuys...

Pearl, the link should be working...

Sarah Koster wrote:Interesting point. In my this-can-never-happen-again efforts, I realized that the common point between all the guys who I had horrible relationships was, their mother abused, neglected and/or abandoned them. I tend to only be interested in extremely emotionally intense relationships where the man initiates. But when they're doing this because they have mommy issues and are terrified of being abandoned, there's problems. I believe the reason I don't see the red flags is, I was "raised" by parents who were neglected and abused by their mothers/my grandmothers. I was raised to compensate for mommy issues of my then alcoholic parents. So I make every effort to smooth things over, make things work, and de-escalate anxiety and conflict. It seems that the healthier females pick their mate, and aren't picked by him, so that may be a problem I need to address as well, my complacency and overwillingness to humor people. I don't want to be a minion/gopher/retainer/familiar but it seems to be the role I fall into most easily, and lemme tell you, the people who want that in a romantic partners are evil bastards. THEY only want to be served and obeyed and admired, but I eventually get disillusioned and "rebellious" which is when the locking-in-attics and physical abuse seem to start.
I wanna know how they can spot me so easily. I mean there aren't really that many dudes who were abandoned by their mother, are there? And they don't all turn into paranoid, possessive woman-beaters, right? I mean like why? wwwwhhhhhhyyyyyyy i just want to go out with someone who likes trees but doesn't want to keep me under lock and key. it shouldn't be this hard.

You are on a good track!
It is not that easy, because actually, abandonment is one of the most common violence we can experiment! Also common are shame, humiliation and making guilty.

I also have this sort of fear of abandonement, and my new boyfriend as well. But we both have the reaction of trying hard to not reproduce it, and we are both relyable about at least trying our best in this respect. (like bulldogs that won't let go what they have grasped!)

It seems you see your pain into those guys, and that make you attracted! What you really want is to soothe and let go this wound yourself. No mystery, we all want to let go things that we stayed blocked in, creating a lack of fluidity. You have become good at using social skills to lower anxiety and conflict, which is super great, but there are others ways to react when there are conflicts. Do not "abandon" this way you know, just find more and use other ways alternatively from the beginning instead of rebelling later. They spot you because instinctively they can see that you have only this way of dealing with conflict!

Just see the difference with my second story... By the way, I picked the first one, and got picked by the second, and it took him a hard job of several months to convince me!

I am now just starting a new relationship, and I am at the same time curious and afraid about how much I have changed and what will happen.

As it has been written a lot in this topic about "criteria", I will say up to what point that can be absolutely useless... Non smoker was on the list, and I just have reduced it to "non smoker in my house and in my car".

My last relationship was over for more than 2 years, and I was actually still mourning about the stupidity of what had happened, and that I was not going to find in anybody the part I liked without the part that I did not like. Actually, I was even trying to imagine my life alone and that it was best to stay off. I am right now with a person I know for nearly 2 years, though I know about him for even more. At this time he was with a woman already. Anyway he was absolutely not the person I would ever have imagined to be with, especially because I knew his father! I started to have a friendly opening to him actually when I met his son, because this young guy could not have a that bad father.

A few months ago, he told me that he was separated, and that he had decided to have goats again. I had given plants to his son before. We regularly have talked about tips for plants and also for health and back pain etc. Actually I can laugh about who said she did not know how to accept flowers, as I did accept flowers without noticing, because they were artichokes! What a nice permie "bouquet de fleur"!

I cannot say I saw nothing and how he managed to get closer to me haha, but I had doubts too, as it was so slow, and I was not wanting to accept at all. The list of cons was also quite long, and I was really not wanting a relationship at all with anybody.

I don't even know how it changed. It might be his honesty about saying who he was. It can be about having seen what is my one-only-criteria: not only the desire to be a better person, but his way to go slow but steady and do it. He is working hard at lowering his cigarette consumtion for example. He pays attention to his diet and has been recovering from fatigue little by little, during the time I have been myself doing the same. He is authentic and smart about his philosophy of life. I feel respected and I am given time to feel ok. I have expressed my fears and what events from my past I had to face and overcome though it had nothing to do with him. And then there is a big point, he is able to show tenderness in a usually more feminine way and he is conscious that he did not have enough and needs it and that it is not a shame, though it is a shame for most people in a latin culture! I also need this, and know at mental level that we all should give each other more cariño (the spanish word is so nice!) because this is the main condition we need to give each other the support to overcome the bad stuffs in life!

The best relationship is when you can do your job yourself, and not anybody doing it for you, while knowing that without support, you would not be able to really regulate yourself that well. We cannot fix others, but we cannot fix ourselfs alone either, this is the great paradox! Without this, I cannot believe a relationship can be fulfilling.

Also, I can see very clearly the impact of the past in a relationship, and the necessity to become aware and take time to notice - by stopping and giveing space - what happens. Example: by speaking strongly about something he disapproves because it is unfair, that was a bit strong for me, because my parents never ever did this. When I am taken by surprise I know I get shocked. First I could stop him, by saying that I understood, but that the people were not here to listen to him, and that I was... I said it made me feel bad. Then I noticed that I was dissociated, translate as "not feeling present". I explained, and got his kind help with a hug to help me come back. I could even let myself be trembling and then yawn and sigh when I felt better. Then I could say some joke about all this, and we could feel together again. If there is no way to repair the bonding when exterior event happen, then couples see the distance between them increase, and they do not know how to get close again. This is only a physiological process, and we should all know about it and practise it! This morning he had to go to work unexpectedly on sunday, and he was looking low and not paying attention to me. I just went and told him I could observe he looked preoccupied. He answered about what he was actually really feeling, that he was used with a lack of respect, because nobody was able to organize the work properly and that he had to shut up. Of course it was a bit hard for my hear to listen to what he could not say to the right persons! But it was not unexpected, and I "stayed there" because I knew I was helping him to discharge what was looking like a weight on him. When he had a better face after talking, I just said I was happy to see him with a better face now. But I have taken no weight myself, I just gave support for a natural process that everybody is able to do. Even animals do this and give each other support this way! We humans have just forgotten how to do it, and we confuse with "helping" and "saving". Of course we can help, but we should not do this instead of giving support, to not create a confusion.

Women are often a bit too much "savers" and need to know how to become like pets: give just love, and let the people balance themselves through the contact. (of course i do not include any other aspect of pets, and it is about being loving pets to each other, it is not one way!) And you need to find a guy that has no shame about being caring, at least when there are no witnesses! Your dog never solves your problems nor fill your papers, but gives your strength back to you by being there. If you do this and no more, this should filter quite a lot of men...

I will answer in 2 posts, about my last relationship, and my new one...

Pearl Sutton wrote:I don't have a clue. I guarantee it. I have been in more bad relationships than I care to think about.

Any wise women out there who want to help out the lost ladies?

About this point.... Others mentioned it too. It has nothing to do with a father being so and so, because it is not just about the father, it is about many other things that happened to you. Let's face it: who is a magnet for us, and who are we a magnet for! This has nothing to do with "the head" and doing a good choice.

i give you one example: my sister in law, with a father who was drinking and then divorces from the mom. She married my brother and thought "great, a familly with no alcohol". I guarantee, zero risk in all the familly. But my brother did not listen to her when he decided to buy a bar as business!
And she AGAIN found herself in problems due to alcohol!

Our inner system  - our heat, our guts - will just look for the situations  that look like what we lived before, because these situations blocked us, and we want to do something to go back to a better fluidity of our life energy. We will pick up who we need at such a deep level that our mind will not see it. If we both are ready to work at this level, by using somatic methods and not cortex/talk/mind/pure logic, then incredible things will come out.

So i have ONLY ONE criteria: real capacity and dedication to become ones better self!
A lot of people want this in theory. But they run away in fear - or get angry -  when it comes to really do it. Because it is not easy and very activating and needs awareness and consciousness.

This is what happened to me like 4 years ago or so.... After being 40 day into a new relationship that was very promising about doing some permies stuff and a guy knowing the traditonal way of life in a place I was not born in, catastrophe - yes it happened quick. I was threatened by another guy who was under cocain, and got no help, uncovering the hidden trauma... i was with a guy with a father I knew had been more than abusive, and he looked well recovered ....exceptfor this point: "I am a too small child to defend my mom". This day I saw the frightened child, and the shock he got ruined our relationship, however hard I tried. I saw his inner child this day, but I saw that he was stuck in his incapacity to give support to a woman much after.

So what did I do? Well, it took me 2 years to give up, but what did I learn?

i asked myself "What is the common point between him and exs?" The main obvious common point was about some guilt about protecting their mother. Then I asked myself "Is it relevant to me as well, though I dont think so? What is there and I do not see it?" My father is super nice and my parents never quarelled. Actually there was the reverse, my mom was guilty because her work when she was pregnant gave me some damage because she manipulated alcohol, and not the one that is drinkable.... also propanol and isopropanol etc. Then i started to see I had to protect my mom, by not telling my familly when I had some health issue! To protect my mom from feeling guilty...

So my 1st advise is to work on your past physiological traumas, even for the ones that are said psychological, they always have a somatic part.
You will see them by comparing the persons you are attracted by, friends or partners, and also who like you etc, all relationships. You can also use what attracks you as a hobby or job. This will reveal to you the somatic part that is under all you like. We are not so free about what we like! Why do I like what and who I like is a basic question to know yourself! Basically, there are stuck energy in 2 forms: the famous fight and flight. Running, travelling, are about escaping. Aikido and boxing are about fighting. Climbing is about past falls, or even your mother when she was pregnant of you... (yes I have seen it and when I asked the guy to ask his mother about it, he said he already knew the answer and I was right about my guess). Actually, as in my own example, it took most of my adult life to figure out that I was picking up guys with a very strange and difficult to see common point, and that I could see myself and a point I needed to free myself from.

I am myself trained in somatic experiencing and it helped me to see all this. I have just discovered another similar somatic method, and you can have a look at the testimonial of this 46 y.o. woman https://www.attachmentrepairmodel.com/testimonials/

Somatic therapies are for me real perma-therapies! I have really found the same principles as in permaculture.

Yes I remember completing it.... and then there was some sort of computer "rock in the way" something that shows up when the tide is low, and was not expected before!