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anyone working with Hydrogen ?

                          


Joined: Oct 26, 2010
Posts: 5
very difficult to read this.  Fonts and message box the size opf a POstage Stamp.  Sorry for any typos

I have been working with a very encouraging HYdrogen Generator for POwer and Heat.  There are movies of it being used for INterbnal Combustion Engines for a few ongoing years now over in Europe.  I am not sure how we have fallen behind in this...

I have a website with Plans.  Basicacally for Testing Units.  BUt there aer people using it and getting 2.5 x the Input... 

I have worked on similar projects since I was in Grade School....  making Hydrogen is pretty simple......  probably simpler than making a Solar Panel

I have plans for making Solar Panels too

I need to step up for continuos Production, but I havent spent 200$ and I have a working model that produces.

If any0one else out there is interrested in this, iit would help alot to have a small tr4am working on it

I dont understand why more people dont do this.  Its alot more independant and there is No Question its impact on the environment.....

                    


Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 0
1.  Both Firefox and Chrome allow the user to increase/decrease font size in the browser window by using
Ctrl + the + key to grow the font  (press & hold together)
Ctrl + the - key to go smaller
and
Ctrl + 0 (the zero) to return to original size

2. Can you tell us more about your work with hydrogen?

                          


Joined: Oct 26, 2010
Posts: 5
yes, but I can only use IE6 to get on here because of the Cookies.  Chrome wont allow it.  I didnt really want to use IE at all on this machine.  I set it up without, but looks like I am being punished now.

Well Hydrogen, or in this Case is HHO maybe... but can be rendered a number of different ways.  This process is known as Cold Fusion, which is basically Electrolysis.  A casual Grade School Science project.

In this case however, we are using stronger DC Voltage and more serious Electrodes. 

The source that I got this from are Scientists in France and the English is kind of fuzzy....  I did not quite understand that this was only for testing to begin with...  they are more interested in the output of Heat than the actual Fuel....  funny how Scientists can be, (dont you know) ?

Any one familiar with a few simple Electronics, and Soldering Gun can just about do this.

I live in a real rural backwoods area, which makes a few things difficult to improvise.  Internet can be handy for a few things, but horrible if you need something and dont have a name to start with.  If I was closer to a City, I could just go driving around till I found what I needed. 

ok here, dont let the pictures Scare you away, this is really alot simpler than it looks

scroll down and there is some High School Girls doing it as a Science Project
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cfr/index.htm
(my son was expelled from elementary school Science Fair when he did his, and HomeSchool began)

I am finding this is the easiest method
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cfr/html/cfr33.htm

I have since found a much simpler method for a Power Supply, so I dont need so much Circuitry or expense...

It is bascially just using 160 VDC to 2 Electrodes in a Solution, and running the Gas off.  220 VDC can be used, but dont get the best output...  fine tuning and you will get 2.5x Output

Can use Jets for Heat, or put right into a Carburetor of a Generator.  NO MODIFICIATIONS necessary...  very easy on the Engine Life, much cleaner,,,  using on Cars is little more difficult, but people are doing it

Alot of people (that dont really know what they are talking about) are terrified at the Danger and will try and humiliate you.  Its not as bad, as long as you follow simple safety.  Hydrogen (and Oxygen for that matter) are much more volatile that Gasoline or Propane for example.  Safety Rules are the same.

I would like to see this work in one of the Rocket Stoves
                    


Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 0
Eleusis wrote:

Can use Jets for Heat, or put right into a Carburetor of a Generator.  NO MODIFICIATIONS necessary...  very easy on the Engine Life, much cleaner,,,   


Has anyone got a generator running on hydrogen (HH) made from water (HHO)? I'd like to see that instead of a bunch of photos of lab experiments. Or better yet, where can I buy one!
                          


Joined: Oct 26, 2010
Posts: 5
here is a whole page of Movies of Working Models.  Generators included

http://bingofuel.online.fr/bingofuel/index.htm

                    


Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 0
Great looking stuff! But what about folks who don't want to mess with cobbling something together? Why can't I go down to the local big box store and buy one if this is so good and been around for so many years?
Joel Hollingsworth
volunteer

Joined: Jul 01, 2009
Posts: 2103
Location: Oakland, CA
don miller; MountainDon wrote: Why can't I go down to the local big box store and buy one if this is so good and been around for so many years?


Electrolysis consumes a large amount of energy.

People expect factory-made, professionally-designed equipment to be as efficient as possible. If they take home an item like this from the store, and keep careful track of how much energy it uses and what sort of benefit they derive from its use, they'll probably make a big stink about it with the press or one of the consumer watchdog agencies.


"the qualities of these bacteria, like the heat of the sun, electricity, or the qualities of metals, are part of the storehouse of knowledge of all men.  They are manifestations of the laws of nature, free to all men and reserved exclusively to none." SCOTUS, Funk Bros. Seed Co. v. Kale Inoculant Co.
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 15061
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
I haven't read all of the page, but it does seem like there is a lot of work there.

Can you tell us what are you experiences are in the amount of electricity from the wall to a battery to a motor vs. using hydrogen?  Based on the 2.5x thing, it seems that it could be far wiser than a battery.

sign up for my daily-ish email / rocket mass heater 4-DVD set / permaculture playing cards
                


Joined: Feb 09, 2010
Posts: 44
Location: West Coast of Canada
I think it is curious that not one of these schemes provides a quantitative analysis.  How hard is it to measure electrical current or gas flow rates?  Not providing this information hurts their credibility. 

I don't want to throw a wet blanket over someone's beloved project to save the world, but perhaps providing quantitative analysis would hurt their credibility more than not providing it?

I'll believe this stuff when someone drives into my driveway with a vehicle powered by it.
                    


Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 0
Amen!
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 15061
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
(I've deleted a few posts here)

My videos and articles seem to get a lot of similar comments:  "oh yeah, prove it!  where is your accredited white paper published in a reputable journal?  if you don't have that, then it doesn't exist!"  ---- for pete's sake, it's a video of a rocket mass heater, if you are sure it doesn't exist then stop looking at the video and go away.

I think that a big part of permaculture and farming in general is made of thousands of experiments. 

I think it is fair to ask for infromation, but to demand it is not. 

While I am not convinced of the numbers at this time, I am excited to see somebody working on the issue.  I do look forward to seeing something that shows how much power was used and then how many miles/whatever came out of it.  I think there is a lot of inefficiency with batteries - so this could be a worthy path. 

Just because somebody discovers something, or invents something, doesn't mean that this person has to prove anything to anybody.  But it is nice if they share. 

I get beat up on all day, every day, because of my articles and videos.  So, dammit, these forums are one place where people are not going to get beat up on when they try new things.

If you are gonna doubt, then please do it respectfully of the person putting in all the work!

paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 15061
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
This is interesting:

http://cleantechnica.com/2008/10/25/mit-energy-storage-discovery-could-lead-to-unlimited-solar-power/

paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 15061
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
Another interesting bit:  http://thepowergeneration.blogspot.com/2009/09/hydrogen-challenger.html

These guys take a barge out to the ocean with wind generators.  They fill up hydrogen fuel tanks and then bring it back to shore.

I suppose you could just park your tractor where the wind blows and it would fill with fuel overnight!

                    


Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 0
paul wheaton wrote:
  I do look forward to seeing something that shows how much power was used and then how many miles/whatever came out of it. 


That is what seems to be missing in every one of these claims to somehow use water to produce energy on the cheap. I have seen testimonials on websites that offer plans and parts for sale, but never certified lab reports. Somehow I have no trouble believing a rocket mass heater works from watching a video. However, these energy claims seem to violate all the principles I learned in formal education. I believe "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."
Joel Hollingsworth
volunteer

Joined: Jul 01, 2009
Posts: 2103
Location: Oakland, CA
paul wheaton wrote:These guys take a barge out to the ocean with wind generators.  They fill up hydrogen fuel tanks and then bring it back to shore.


Brilliant idea, and I support it with one caveat:

Hydrogen is difficult to store: not only is it bulky, the best tanks are lined with platinum or rhodium or similar, and still they leak constantly.

I think it would be well worth setting up the electrolysis bath such that archaea can grow on the cathode. They would not only catalyze the reduction of hydronium into a neutral gas, they would at the same time fix carbon into methane gas. Lots of enzyme pathways, but the net reaction is as follows:

H[sub]2[/sub]CO[sub]3[/sub] + 8 H[sub]3[/sub]O[sup]+[/sup] + 8e[sup]-[/sup] = CH[sub]4[/sub] + 11 H[sub]2[/sub]0

Note that the de-carbonated seawater can probably be re-carbonated from the air via a process that isn't too energy-intensive. Definitely less energy than would be needed for cryogenic storage. Or the liquid methane tanks can be re-filled with CO[sub]2[/sub] from some industrial source that would otherwise emit into the atmosphere.

paul wheaton wrote:I suppose you could just park your tractor where the wind blows and it would fill with fuel overnight!


To fill it overnight, you'd probably need a turbine that's too big to carry on the tractor, or a tractor with a wheelbase several meters wide. A turbine charging station that can be easily set up and taken down using stakes and cables is probably a better bet.

It can even be a purely mechanical turbine, that runs the PTO of an electric tractor backward. I'd also strongly recommend storage batteries of one sort or another. Or the tractor's PTO motor can be de-mounted and placed on the rotor, with an extension cable, as the turbine is being set up.
 
 
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