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once a month basic-H as an animal wormer

paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14198
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
I got this idea from Salatin.  Once a month he makes sure all of his animals have access only to water with a little basic H in it. 

I checked around and found lots of stories of people with animals that were near death from parasites and after this basic H thing, the animals snapped back to awesome health. 

I would think that basic-H would violate any organic stuff because it isn't designed for this use.  I also have no idea what is in it.

In the past, I used it strictly because joel did.  And I was always uncomfortable with the idea.

Now, I wonder if there are much better techniques.  Namely, holzer's approach of lots of poisonous plants.  Plus lots of paddock shift and the like. 

Anybody else used basic H?  Anybody know what is in it?




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Emil Spoerri
pollinator

Joined: Oct 19, 2009
Posts: 415
    
    4
from the research i did, it seems the only problem is it has a small amount of ethyl alcohol which contains minute amounts of dioxin

i wasn't aware before that beer and wine had dioxin in it... oh well!

anyways i am glad you posted this, i am going to have to give it a try...
Chelle Lewis


Joined: Dec 10, 2009
Posts: 417
Location: Hartbeespoort, South Africa
    
    1
Is basic-H a brand name? What poisonous plants does Sepp Holtzer offer his animals? Do they just take it?

I know the Chinaberry fruit kills oocysts in goats and some will force feed them some when this is threatening as a problem. From what I can establish it will pretty much kill off every other animal as well... not just the parasite.

Chelle
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14198
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
Cyara wrote:
Is basic-H a brand name?


Yes.  It's a shaklee product.

Cyara wrote:
What poisonous plants does Sepp Holtzer offer his animals?


I think that would be an excellent new thread!
Willow NyteEyes


Joined: Oct 03, 2010
Posts: 32
Location: Zone 6a/b - London Ontario
#  Cheryl C McNeil on August 30th, 2008 10:07 pm

Thanks for the great review on Basic H2. Someone said they like a company that walks the talk.

Shaklee was the first company in the world certified Climate Neutral, they have products that are green seal certified and also Kosher Certified. These are not easy certifications to come by. Shaklee leads the business world in doing all it can for the environment. I have not seen a company that walks the talk more than Shaklee.

I was a user of Shaklee products long before I became involved in the business model which I don’t really push very hard just love to let others know about a great product that is safe tor their family and their planet.

My 4 year old grand daughter took my Shaklee hand wash soap into her room the other night and when I found her she had it all over her, the room and said she was cleaning the blankets. Well instead of calling poison control or 911 and rushing off to the emergency room, she had a great bubble bath with all she had on her.

My dog licks the floor when I use the Basic H2 to clean my floors with and she is healthy as any dog the vet has ever seen. I spray it on and she licks it off, I have to do it again so I can clean my floor.

I believe Shaklee has the safest and most environmentally friendly products on the planet. With over 50 years of being in business there has never been a product recall nor a major complaint with the BBB.


Found Here.


~ I don't talk to people with closed minds; They tend to harbor brain fungus. ~
Chris Stelzer
Author


Joined: Feb 17, 2011
Posts: 118
    
    1
An alternative to using Basic H for worming purposes is to use Diatomaceous Earth. I have heard of a few farmers who are doing this with good results. You can give it "Cafeteria Style" or mix it with their mineral or other supplements (if you are using supplements). One of them is Nature's Harmony Farm in Georgia. They have an excellent website as well.

If I had a choice between the two, I would use DE and see how well it worked. I also don't feel that comfortable using Basic H, but in a pinch I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

Chris


Agricultural Insights Daily Podcast/Blog about Sustainable Agriculture with a focus on livestock and grazing.
The Grazing Book
Paula Edwards


Joined: Oct 06, 2010
Posts: 411
How much of the d... earth?
Wormwood. and I think walnut leaves and maybe garlic. My sheep loves garlic and eats it like a candy.
Chris Stelzer
Author


Joined: Feb 17, 2011
Posts: 118
    
    1
I would just give the DE free choice, and not added to anything else. That way they have the freedom to choose how much they want. It should work well for you.
John Polk
steward

Joined: Feb 20, 2011
Posts: 5857
Location: Moving to: NE Washington USDA zone 5 Western steppes to the Rockies
    
  88
There is a natural de-wormer available.  While I am not endorsing the product, if you go to the site, and scroll down a little, they list (seven of) their ingredients.  A very good basis for mixing your own.

http://www.verm-xusa.com/index.php

I do know people who swear by it.  It is expensive, but with their list, it should be easy to concoct your own remedy.
Boulveye Hatfield


Joined: Mar 05, 2011
Posts: 1
I am wondering about the dosage of Basic-H? How much and is there any side effects, bad or indifferent?
Frozen Trout


Joined: Mar 11, 2011
Posts: 1
I have used the Basic H in the past for animal wormer.  I need to get back to doing so. 
I was told by a critter friend to use one or two drops (from a toothpick) in a large bucket of water.  She swears by it.

I never tested my animals (goats) after using to see if parasite free but think I will start a new experiment this spring/sumer. 

Animals did not notice it in water.
Walter Jeffries


Joined: Nov 21, 2010
Posts: 893
    
  17
I don't use Basic-H although I am curious about it. We have used garlic for years with very good results. DE for externals. See here for a summary:

http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/2005/10/worms-au-natural.html
4greenhealth Hatfield


Joined: Apr 05, 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Mexico, Mo.
I have been putting one drop of the new basic H in my coffee maker for some time. the water only gets one chance to go past those coffee grounds, and WOW! best cup of coffee I have ever had. it's because the basic H breaks the surface tension of the water. make's water 300 times wetter. I haven't grown a third eye yet. Grandma used to put a drop of basic H on our tongues when we were bad. It was like the bar of soap that would not leave! awsome product. many, many uses. www.4greenhealth.com


Teaching people how to find natural great health, and the freedom to enjoy it!
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4432
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    4
basic h has a bitter flavor and will kinda numb my lips if i get it near my mouth so I'm not too anxious to ingest it but if it works for a wormer I might try a drop or two in the cats water ..


Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/
Rob Alexander


Joined: Apr 13, 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Hakuba, Japan
Has no one else noticed that none of the information online about using basic-h as a dewormer can explain how or why it works?

"Other products used as dewormers are diatomaceous earth, charcoal, peroxide and surfactants such as Shaklee's Basic H. There is no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of these products as dewormers, but many farmers use them and swear to their validity. "

Take from that what you will.

I believe that DE is effective only when it is dry, so it is useful on exterior parasites, but would be ineffective on parasites in the gut where it would be wet.


"The greatest learning takes place in dialogue between people - learning is a social process and not just an intellectual event"
John Meshna


Joined: Jul 22, 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Vermont
Diatomaceous Earth is a very good wormer for all animals. The only internal parasite I know of that doesn't respond well to it is hook worms which lodge in the tissue.
DE kills eggs in the stool and the parasites themselves and can be fed "Free Choice" without harm to every type of livestock including chickens. when placed out in a dusting box poultry can wallow in it and control external parasites as well and it makes their eggs harder when they eat it.
DE will keep fly larvae from hatching out too which will keep your barn cleaner and easier to maintain. We've been selling DE for years and everyone raves about it. We have eight dogs ourselves and they get it at every meal and we've never had a case of worms around here and dusting the pen and their bedding keeps our flea and tick population down, along with the usual keeping everything clean and maintained properly.
Since Basic H is a cleaner and the ingredients aren't published and it's not registered for use internally I'd be inclined to stay away from it until more is known. It may turn out to be fine but without knowing for sure I'd be inclined to keep using it for the intended purpose as an all natural cleaner.


John Meshna (owner)
Green State Hydroponics
1195 Dog Team Road
New Haven, Vt 05472
4greenhealth Hatfield


Joined: Apr 05, 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Mexico, Mo.
I can not tell you how Basic H works as a wormer. Don't know when it started being used as a wormer. But I do have alot of testimonies from farmers going back to the early 1970's.
  wormer, teat dip, fly spray, scours, flipped stomach, warts on cattle. barns and buildings......it just works. Since 1960 it works.
Dave Bennett


Joined: Jun 25, 2011
Posts: 641
I am not too sure about Basic H other than it is made from corn and coconuts but I do know that there is no dioxin in beer unless the water was contaminated before brewing which isn't likely.  The fact that it is called an Organic Cleaner doesn't necessarily mean that it is completely safe.  Tremendously strong chemicals can be extracted from plant that are grown organically but are deadly toxins.  It is basically soap so I wouldn't drink it. LOL 

"Beer contains no dioxins

Since the dioxin crisis in Belgium we have all become aware that dioxins are potentially carcinogenic in man. Studies show that a slight exposure causes little or no cancer, but a high exposure can lead to an increased risk of certain cancers (eg. leukaemia). Belgian law stipulates that food with more than 2% fat (eg. milk, meat) may not contain more than five picogrammes of dioxine per gramme of fat.
Dioxins are found everywhere in the environment, in the air, water and soil. The normal contamination of animal products and animals is the result of the pollution of surface drinking water and grasslands in which contaminated air and water drainage provide an almost constant, generally low, contamination. When industrial waste gets into animal feed, there can be a massive increase in exposure to dioxins. Because dioxins are barely soluble in water, but very much so in fat, it is the fat compartments in animal products that are the most contaminated.
According to the Foodstuffs Inspectorate of the Ministry of Public Health, no dioxin contamination has ever been found in Belgian beer. This makes sense as beer does not contain any fats and dioxins are mainly soluble in fat.
Belgian beer thus does not come under the normal residue legislation on dioxins because it contains no fat components."

Notice that dioxin is not water soluble and that poisoning is more likely to occur from eating animal products that drinking beer or wine. 


"When there is no life in the soil it is just dirt."
"MagicDave"
Walter Jeffries


Joined: Nov 21, 2010
Posts: 893
    
  17
Dioxins are not everywhere. There are places, like our land, where they simply aren't there. There are clean spaces. The comparison of eating animals vs drinking was also false.
Dave Bennett


Joined: Jun 25, 2011
Posts: 641
Suggesting that the likelihood of dioxins being in animal products rather than beer or wine as stated by an earlier post is NOT the same as suggesting that it IS there.  Don't ever put words in my mouth and do NOT suggest that there aren't areas of THIS COUNTRY (USA) where dioxin contamination isn't a problem. The information I offered about the LIKELIHOOD of dioxin in beer and wine was false and that if it was anywhere it would be in animal products.  That is because dioxin is fat soluble and not water soluble. 
Burra Maluca
Mother Tree

Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3960
Location: Portugal Zone 9 Mediterranean Climate
    
130
OK guys - can everyone who's posted recently go back and edit out anything 'not nice' or accusatory or that suggests that anyone else is less than perfect or wrong about anything.  And ideally do that before Paul notices what's going on.


What is a Mother Tree ?
Dave Bennett


Joined: Jun 25, 2011
Posts: 641
That is as much editing that I can do.  If Paul is angry with me defending my earlier statement so be it.  I only offered a correction regarding beer and wine dioxin contamination and why if it was anywhere it would be in animal products not water based products.  I was then offered a response that my statement was false.  What am I supposed to do?  I have the facts to back up my statement.  Allowing misinformation is as wrong as making false allegations.
Dave Bennett


Joined: Jun 25, 2011
Posts: 641
Chelle Lewis wrote:
Is basic-H a brand name? What poisonous plants does Sepp Holtzer offer his animals? Do they just take it?

I know the Chinaberry fruit kills oocysts in goats and some will force feed them some when this is threatening as a problem. From what I can establish it will pretty much kill off every other animal as well... not just the parasite.

Chelle

Chinaberries are excellent for flea control too.  Back in the early 80's when I lived in California I used to collect them from my front yard, dry them and put them in a small muslin bag.  I would then put them in areas where the dog slept most often.  It kept her flea free.
Peace.
4health McCoy


Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 2
I have heard of using Basic H for worming and would like more information. As someone who has used Shaklee products over the years and likes them and the company's philosophy I would like to know how well this works safely, especially for horses. I used it as my infant's bath soap 28 years ago and have used it with plants and soil applications.

What follows is what I have been able to find in print. Lengthy if you want to read.

------------------------------------------

On Basic H2 container is listed:

Clean Credentials:
Nontoxic
Natural
Doubly concentrated (am guessing over original blue formula)
Biodegradable
No phosphates

CAUTION: Concentrate may cause eye irritation. Avoid eye and prolonged skin contact. Wash thoroughly after handling. Contains surfactants.
FIRST AID for EYES:  Flush with water for 10-15 minutes. If irritation persists contact a physician.

It is very concentrated, I'm noting there is no rush to the hospital or poison control listed.

---------------------------------

This is what I found on Shaklee website:

1 bottle of Basic H2 equals the cleaning uses of 5,824 bottles of 26 oz. Windex®*

For best results, use with Get Clean Spray Bottles

Basic H2® is all you need for thousands of household jobs

Ultraconcentrated – 16 ounces makes up to 48 gallons of super powerful cleaner when mixed with water.
Versatile and powerful cleaner – removes dirt, grease, and grime from any washable surface, inside and out. Dilute according to directions.
No rinse, no residue, streak-free formula.
Use on any washable surface – indoors or out

Walls, Windows and Mirrors, Countertops, Floors, Appliances, Stoves, Sealed Woodwork, Pots and Pans, Furniture

Clean Credentials
Nontoxic
Natural
Doubly concentrated
Biodegradable Surfactants

* This label comparison was done on September 3, 2008, and is valid only for the named products marketed at that time. All trademarks are the property of their respective owners.
----------------------------

for original Basic H product:

World's Most Versatile Cleaner

Back in 1960, Basic-H was one of the first environmentally safe household cleaners on the market. Today, millions of bottles later, it's more loved than ever.

Efficient, powerful, safe, biodegradable, and economical, Basic-H is the world's most versatile cleaner, period. Sixteen ounces makes up to 90 gallons to clean hard surfaces, woodwork, walls, floors, glass, mirrors, even cars. Anything you can clean with water, you can clean with Basic-H. No wonder it was named an official Earth Day product.
-------------------------------

and from a product sheet 
http://www.shaklee.com/pws/library/products/basic-h_talksheet.pdf:

The number one choice for safety. Scientifically formulated with natural ingredients,
Basic-H is nonflammable and contains no ammonia, acids, alkalis, solvents, phosphates,
chlorine, nitrates, or borates. That means Basic-H is safe to use around children, pets,
and plants. Because it’s biodegradable and nonpolluting, Basic-H is also safe to use
on cars and patios in areas where gutter runoff goes straight to waterways.

--------------------------------


at http://www.allnaturalhealthylife.com/natural-cleaners/a-list-of-uses-for-shaklee-basic-h/ there is a very comprehensive list of uses for this product to include:

DOGS For Worms – Apply 2 drops H for every ten pounds of the dog’s weight on their feed for one week. Repeat this application every 3 months. You may put it in a spray bottle with a little water and spray it over the dog’s food. You can also add a drop or two to the water. I also add some Liqui-Lea (liquid vitamin) to our dogs’ food.

------------------------

I have sent an email to a Shaklee distributor that has been with the company for a long time, when I get a response I will post.

I will note that the skin is largest eliminative organ and whatever touches skin is absorbed into body and is a form of ingestion. So if safe for skin there is some level of safety internally would be my opinion which I would like confirmed for long term use.  Interesting the lengths that we go to given that chemical wormers are essentially poisons.
Steven Baxter


Joined: Mar 22, 2011
Posts: 254
I heard mugwort works as a wormer
Rob Alexander


Joined: Apr 13, 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Hakuba, Japan
4health wrote:
I will note that the skin is largest eliminative organ and whatever touches skin is absorbed into body and is a form of ingestion. So if safe for skin there is some level of safety internally would be my opinion which I would like confirmed for long term use.  Interesting the lengths that we go to given that chemical wormers are essentially poisons.


I really don't like to troll, but I feel I must..
So the skin is an eliminative organ. It excretes, salty water. Teensyweensy amounts of toxins too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspiration
"whatever touches the skin is absorbed into the body"
Please get into a lake when you're thirsty and tell me when you stop feeling thirsty.
The skin is waterproof, that's what it's there for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integumentary_system
"whatever touches skin is absorbed into body and is a form of ingestion. So if safe for skin there is some level of safety internally would be my opinion"
You've got to be joking. If I dip my hand in orange juice, what part of it am I ingesting?
By the same token, there must be countless things that can touch the skin with little effect, but would be poisonous if swallowed, shampoo just as an easy example.

I know that this is getting off topic and I apologise, but I just couldn't let this sciency-sounding misinformation go unchallenged.
Burra Maluca
Mother Tree

Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3960
Location: Portugal Zone 9 Mediterranean Climate
    
130
Fat soluble stuff can pass through the skin no problem.  I don't know if water or water solubles stuff can, but I suspect not.
4health McCoy


Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 2
I appreciate you challenging my comment if I'm off base, I'm thinking out loud and doing my best to connect some dots, no intention of sounding scientific, I will continue my personal practice of not putting something on my body that I wouldn't want inside it and will do further research for this topic for myself, if you find something helpful I would appreciate knowing as Basic H as a wormer would be a simple, easy way to address worming for those of us who don't have organic animals,

and yes I think mugwort was in one of the herbal formulas that I have used for horses, would have to go back and check the label
Burra Maluca
Mother Tree

Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3960
Location: Portugal Zone 9 Mediterranean Climate
    
130
No problem with thinking out loud! 

Here's a useful link about how well children's skin absorbs different kinds of substances - http://www.cape.ca/children/derm2.html

I'd also like to draw everyone's attention to Paul's opinion of the use of the word 'but', as in 'I really don't like to troll, but I feel I must..'  http://www.permies.com/bb/index.php?topic=6148.0 and also the 'Be Nice' thread - http://www.permies.com/bb/index.php?topic=2296.0
Sarah Chapman


Joined: Jun 29, 2011
Posts: 11
    
    1
I have been rotating between an herbal wormer I found on mollysherbals.com and Young Living essential oils. I don't have all the herbs and poisonous plants I'd like growing on place yet so this was my solution. I've done this for about a year and it seems to work well altho the herbs are a weekly regimen. I am not promoting these products, just wanted to share. I have a list of the herbal ingredients if it's not on the webpage.

I'd never thought about using garlic or DE (duh! lol) and I'd never heard of Basic-H. I'm excited to give these a try too.
Rob Alexander


Joined: Apr 13, 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Hakuba, Japan
My apologies for coming off so grumpy 4health, I'm really glad you took it in your stride.
I've found this piece very useful for considering the options.
http://eap.mcgill.ca/agrobio/ab370-04e.htm
It touches on Basic-H, DE, and the various herbals; as well as important information about parasite behaviour and life cycles.
leigh gates


Joined: Oct 08, 2011
Posts: 4
:cryooh my tender ears. be nice. please. As a registared nurse I want to say that yes, skin is very absorbant. Yes, caution with what goes on skin is appropriate
Colleen Peltomaa


Joined: Jun 26, 2011
Posts: 4
paul wheaton wrote:I got this idea from Salatin.  Once a month he makes sure all of his animals have access only to water with a little basic H in it. 

I checked around and found lots of stories of people with animals that were near death from parasites and after this basic H thing, the animals snapped back to awesome health. 

I would think that basic-H would violate any organic stuff because it isn't designed for this use.  I also have no idea what is in it.

In the past, I used it strictly because joel did.  And I was always uncomfortable with the idea.

Now, I wonder if there are much better techniques.  Namely, holzer's approach of lots of poisonous plants.  Plus lots of paddock shift and the like. 

Anybody else used basic H?  Anybody know what is in it?

Has anyone used Borax brand as an effective de-wormer? Okay, I'll do some homework and see if that question already got answered





Jay Green


Joined: Feb 03, 2012
Posts: 587
    
    8
BH was first used, not as a soap, but as a product to fatten turkeys and cattle in Europe, from what I've read. It is, supposedly, comprised of two different soy proteins which are the main active ingredients. Salatin noticed that a side effect of using it was animals would develop glossy coats and put on weight if they were under conditioned. This could be in line with the information about using it as a fattening agent in livestock...who knows?

BH works on internal parasites just like any soap does...it is a surfactant. Surfactants attach to/dissolve oils...in this case, the oils on the surface of a parasite's skin. These oils normally protect this worm from bacterial and other invaders. When their oily coating is compromised the digestive acids present in the digestive tract can then burn their skin, kill them, etc. Any soap can produce this effect and my granny used to give her dish water to her hogs and chickens after use...her soap of choice? Lye soap. It was known even back then that giving your livestock that soapy water was "good for their health"...I'm sure they didn't know exactly why, but the resulting loss of parasitical guests could explain the side effect of good health.

You can use any soap for this but most folks who care about putting obvious chemicals or toxins in their animals hesitate to drench them with Dawn...so Shaklees Basic-H, listed as a natural, good for the environment soap, becomes the soap of choice.

I've used it on cows, sheep, chickens and dogs with good results. The cow definitely gained condition and gloss after its use.

I can't attribute my animal's good health solely to Basic H as I use a multi-directional approach to deworming by utilizing garlic, pumpkin seeds, and charred wood in addition to the soap.
Kahty Chen


Joined: May 07, 2010
Posts: 26
Location: Southern Oregon
Jay Green wrote:
I can't attribute my animal's good health solely to Basic H as I use a multi-directional approach to deworming by utilizing garlic, pumpkin seeds, and charred wood in addition to the soap.


How do you use/administer the charred wood?
Daniel Morse


Joined: Feb 13, 2012
Posts: 214
Location: SW Michigan
    
    3
For a long time natural non toxic soaps have been used in enemas and collonics. It is recommended for good health. If a soap can be used for that then ingestion from the other end is ok. I wish to point out anything done too long is not good for you.

The trick is to find a non toxic soap, veg based, with no metal contamination's and such. Soap can be very powerful. So beware. Doc Broners coms to mind. Plain with no additives. The health of you and your animals are at stake. Be careful and due diligent research.


I have never met a stranger, I have met some strange ones.
Jay Green


Joined: Feb 03, 2012
Posts: 587
    
    8
Kahty Chen wrote:
Jay Green wrote:
I can't attribute my animal's good health solely to Basic H as I use a multi-directional approach to deworming by utilizing garlic, pumpkin seeds, and charred wood in addition to the soap.


How do you use/administer the charred wood?


Place charred piece of wood in their area and they self-dose by chawing on it!
wayne stephen
steward

Joined: Mar 11, 2012
Posts: 1186
Location: Western Kentucky-Climate Unpredictable Zone 6b
    
  46
A freind noted that his quarter horse , during arthritic attack , would eat mullein leaves. I made 5 gallon of mullein tea for gibbled up old horse and he improved , but he only took one dose - drank 2-3 gallons and would consume no more. I am sure there are wormer plants - black walnut etc they may consume. We used to give puppies granulated garlic in their chow and live worms would be expelled.


Permaculture is CPR for the planet !


Daniel Morse


Joined: Feb 13, 2012
Posts: 214
Location: SW Michigan
    
    3
I have used garlic on and off with my dogs. Its natural and works. But it can be overdone. I know a guy who had a case of heartworm in a dog. 1200 for treatment. He used garlic and they went away. Time to start w/garlic as it is spring. Helps with the flea and mite issue. It makes them a bad host for the vermin. But watch the gums for signs of anemia or other issues. I can not find H locally by the way.
 
 
subject: once a month basic-H as an animal wormer
 
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