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New to rocket stoves.

Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Hello my name is carter
I am new to this forum and everything it involves. I am just overwhelmed by this heating system. Can't even believe its that awesome and I never heard about it.
I live in ohio and I have been heating my house with a wood burning insert w/blowers for a couple years now and it sucks, I can heat the house to a great temp even when it's 20 deg but I go through a shit load of wood. I stumbled across the rocket mass heaters you guys are building and that has taken over my past few days with research and all the different concepts out there.

Here is the 1st question. I have a small space to work with and I believe my design will be great but I would like to use a 30 gallon drum with a 6"system, my house is 1100 sq ft. But an old home from 1918 so the rooms are small plus doors and windows, i only have one space to work with. A bigger drum would just be so large for this small room. Will a 30 gallon drum still work good to heat a 6' x 7" L shaped cob couch.

I might have screwed up trying to post a pic of my space to work with. Sorry if I did.

My 2nd question is a big one in my mind. Weight! I deal with stone all the time with the ponds and Japanese gardens I build, plus I think barn stone would be a good example of how much this unit would weigh. Too much.
I will be building this on my main floor but I do have a basement so I am sure I need to build some supports to handle the weight! Everyone fills the beds with bricks,rocks ext from the yard and I would love to do that but I am worried about all that weight.
So can I fill the core with a clay and perlite mix and still have good thermal mass without the bricks and rocks so I can keep my weight down?
Please let me know what you guys think. I really want to start building something this week so its good and cured before winter.
Thank you
Carter Bailey.

Sorry I am sending from my phone and it screwed me up. Here are a couple pics of my space


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allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
Carter Bailey : Welcome to Permies, and a great Big Welcome to the Permies 'Rocket' And 'Wood stove' Forum Threads! You will always remember your 1st few posts
here! With over 19,000 Fellow Members, who literally come from all around the world and have many very different backgrounds, You will experience a large number of
different thoughts, expectations, outlooks and various ways of expressing themselves that will allow you to see new ways to do things you never thought you would
think of !

Weight, we are talking about as much weight as your average water bed, if your building is in good shape, there is little reason to believe that little more than a simple
look in your basement at your floor supports will show us if you need any further bracing- though a set of two jack posts from lowes / home depot would be great
insurance.

Clay and Perlite will simply act as an insulative sleeve holding the heat within your Benches horizontal run of stove pipe, directing all of your heat to your vertical chimney
and outdoors !

The original Rocket Mass Heaters R.M.H.s, were all installed in cob houses on Cob or Cement floors, You will need special adaptations to deal with building on top of your
houses Wooden floors and your other flammable Exposures !

In order for the magic that is your R.M.H. to work, a certain amount of heat has to be shed off of the skin of the barrel to create the difference in heat energy between
your Heat Riser and the bottom of the Barrel -Your Differential Engine, this energy must be shed regardless of the size of the barrel! Counter- intuitively, for the smaller
barrel (30 gal) to dissipate the same amount of heat energy as the larger (55 gal ) barrel, it must radiate that temperature off at a higher temperature than the 55 gal
drum!!

This is why when your three-year-old wants to climb up in your lap they are such a good cuddle, with less surface area to mass ( skin to weight ) they radiate off heat
at a Higher temperature !

I am having a little trouble visualizing the way you want to use your R.M.H. I expect that if you are truly heating your house with the present fireplace, you will be able to
do the same with a well built R.M.H., or do you have a main furnace that you use to heat the other rooms to 50 degrees F and the fire place for space heating !? Can you do
a sketch of you houses floor lay-out and where you would like your curved bench to be ?

Especially as this is your 1st build, and you are placing your self under such a tight schedule it is nearly imperative that you go to rocketstoves.com, to pick up your PDF
Copy $15.00 of Evans' and Jackson's Great book, ''Rocket Mass Heaters''!

With ~100,000 ~ R.M.H.s made world wide, most of them were made following the plans from '' The Book ''- and 95% of all the 1st time R.M.H. builds that worked !!

There is STILL No other book in any language with more Rocket Mass Heater family information ! ( and I don"t get a Dime ! )

Next you need to let people now who and where you are, For all you Know now a near neighbor may be a R.M.H. workshop instructor who is looking for the next place he will
teach a workshop !

I know that this is a lot to take in all to once, But I have a few more, go to ernieanderica.info and find their checklist of information you must arm yourself with and
materials you Must have on hand before you start your build !

Next I want you to go to the list of 'Threads' in the 'Rocket Stove Forums' and find ' Is Erica and Ernie's DVD for sale anywhere?' click on that thread and scroll down
to the comment by Christine Baker and click on her link to a large set of U-tube videos showing the start of a build Very Similar to what you will have to have ! Hope this helps
and is timely !

Think like fire, flow like a Gas, Don't be the Marshmallow ! As always, your comments and questions are solicited and are Welcome ! PYRO - Magically BIG AL !!



Success has a Thousand Fathers , Failure is an Orphan

LOOK AT THE " SIMILAR THREADS " BELOW !
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Hello Allen.
Thank you I am so excited to build this RMH for my home. I did order the book but not the PDF version so I can relax and read it.
I do try to heat my house with just my burner, I keep my thermostat set at 50 deg and my furnace usually never fires up but it's alot of work. I can have the house at 75 deg when I go to bed but when I wake up it could have dropped 20 deg. That's why I am so amazed with storing heat in a bench. I do believe this is the right decision to heat my home and make it feel really great in the winter. I will do a small Dwg of my layout this evening so you can see what I would like to do.
Thanks again
Carter
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C.B. : If I understand your plans, You want to Use your new Rocket Mass Heater R.M.H., to heat as much or more of the core of your house as you can presently do
with your fireplace insert and the box fans you are using now.

Your house has an older Fossil Fuel Fired Forced-air Furnace ( Natural Gas? ) that you use for extreme cold weather to protect your plumbing, and for when you are
away from the house ! Right so far ?

When you do the floor plans for the 1st and second floors of your house it would be extremely helpful if you could shade the areas well heated with your stove/insert
and vary the shading to show where you are cold, and hoping for a few more square feet ( actually cubic ft ) How high are the 1st floor ceilings? the second Floor? I
am going to send this out to you so you can look at it and make plans and I will try to make a plan to look at your floors ! Big AL !
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C.B. : Looking at your pictures, (if you click on the pictures they get bigger, and if you click on them again they get bigger still !) Looking at your fireplace to the right you have
a trunk on the floor below an wall opening that drains heat off into that room but leaves the floor cold, and then back towards the couch still on the right side you have a floor
register that is outlined in lighter colored wood, this was probably a cast iron piece and broke when something was dropped on it ! You will eventually want a floor plan that
sketches in all the floor and ceiling registers,and whether the are Warm air supply or Cold air return ! I expect that you probably only have ceiling registers as the only way
that heat gets upstairs !

Going back to the floor register we can see in the picture, can you see if it has just been set down into the floor opening and is not held down with any screws at all ? I expect
the floor register will just pop right out, You should be able to tell how the floor register opening and the duct run that leads from the furnace to the floor registers "boot' is secured
to the floor, you should also be able to see that you have a floor and below that you have a sub floor, the subfloor is nailed directly on your Floor jousts and the floor is nailed down
to the sub-floor !

Later when we have a chance to go down cellar and look at the size of the jousts in your 100 year old house, I think you will be pleasantly surprised, but if you indeed have a 2
layer floor it will make putting a R.M.H. on top of the floor that much simpler !

Did you find the videos I pointed you towards, if not we will do it through U-tube! You can start looking on-line at Craigslist to locate barrels and bricks in your area,more on that
later !

For the craft! Big AL !
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Hi Big Al

I have a couple pics for you to see. But it's late and I need to get some sleep. 2 different thoughts.
I think my floor will be fine. It's 2 layers if 3" tung and groove total thickness 1 3/4" . All joists are 2" x 8". W/ 16" centers and main beam is a 6" x 10"
I can't wait to get my book in the mail.
I will answer the rest of the questions tomorrow.
Thank you Big Al



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allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C. B. : O.K., Take the time to go to villiagevideo.org/products/rmh/scenes and watch that whole series ( actually 3/8s of a DVD that goes on sale any day now !)

This should seriously wet your appetite for more, as we are sharing our thread with 19,000 + fellow members this is a good point to mention when you get the
PDF Copy of 'The Book' You get to make as many copies for your one time fee, this makes it easy to bring 'The Book' directly to the job w/out worry of trashing
your only copy !

Depending on no further surprises, WE should be able to get you a warm bath room and a bedroom upstairs .

More pictures and sketches ! Have you figured out how to use Craigslist yet ?
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Big Al. I will post the other later, I did order a hard copy of the book and got an email today that it has shipped. So I can't wait for it to show up so I can start reading it. I have already watched all those videos too
I did find 55 gallon drums on Craigslist but didn't see any 33 gallon. I was at my friends shop and the 55 gallon seem so big for this house. On Monday my friend John gave me
A 14" dia barrel that I believe is a 15 or 17 gallon drum. I want to make a mini version just to test before I start on my main home unit. So I think I want to try and make a 4" unit for testing since that barrel seems so small. I don't know yet.
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C.B. : a 4'' unit is a very hard 1st build, I have not yet attempted to build one myself, no need.

I am going to very strongly suggest that you take anything found In U-tube Land with suspicion, There is an awful lot of crap out there !

Having said that, you could go to our sister site, richsoil.com and click on 'Rocket Stoves', This will take you to a series of Videos of Rocket
Mass Heaters R.M.H.s, made by Professionals, or followed up on by professionals !

When you get your book go to page 36 (d). It is counterintuitive but for the magic of the Rocket to work (actually it is a Differential Temp-
erature Engine )both barrels 30 and 55 have to give off the same amount of heat energy, the smaller barrel with less surface area, must
radiate off that heat energy at a higher temperature than the 55 gallon drum with more surface area !

This is the reason why when your three year old wants to climb up in your lap they are such a good cuddle, with a smaller Skin to Weight
ratio, surface area to mass they have to radiate that heat energy at a higher temperature !

If you can find a 55 gallon drum with a removable top for cheap $5, or free grab It ! Also look for used brick and fire brick ! The best use
for that small barrel is for the outside of your Heat Riser ! Don't worry we have plenty of time ! Big AL !
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Your awesome Big Al. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my thoughts on RMH.

I have been thinking about it every moment. And I am not going to rush into it to fast. I will probably draw a 3d version in cad. I was an mechanical engineer for about 10 years designing machines , so in other words I like drawings and making sure I know what I want before I even start building so there won't be many errors and to make sure I have everything.

I am considering using the 14 " dia grease barrel for testing and build an outdoor wok burner. I have a wok that is huge, 30" dia and its hard to even cook on it with my propane wok burner. So I figure I can insulate and build like I would be building my main burner but just use it for cooking outdoors.

If I build a powerful rocket wok burner, do you think I should go 6" or 8". Then I could also make grates for BBQ on it too.

I am trying to start gathering some materials, I did get some awesome sand today for the cob mix under a parking lot after I jack hammered some holes. So I brought that home.

I was searching about the best mass but didn't really find anything. What is the best mass to add in the the bench. I can get most any material for almost free.
It seems like river rock is so dense it would retain the heat for a long time, maybe better that brick? I don't know. Please let me know on those thoughts. I already have enough soft ball sizes of rock in a bin in my yard or I could get a river rock gravel, and that would fill in really nice.

As far as my thought for the house unit. I am thinking the L shaped bench in the dinning room might be the best option even thought its not in the center of the house.

1st the L shaped area in the dinning room is alway cold since it is just brick and plaster plus that area is all windows. Sorry I didn't show that in the Dwg.

2nd the barrel will be more out of the way then if I put in the living room. As you can see I can try to put it in the corner I am sure I will see this answer in the book but how close can I go to my walls if I put a a 2 or 3" layer of clay around the barrel?

3rd. I am thinking I will also make a removable dome over the top like a pizza oven so I could cook inside it for breads, Dutch oven , and of course pizzas. It seems like the temp readings I see on you tube would heat that area up enough for me to cook in it.
If I could do the dome and cook right in the dining room that would be really sweet. Plus maybe the corner would be a nice place to relax, I don't normally relax In the dining room.
I will post a Dwg for you to see once I have it complete. I still think I want a 33 gallon barrel but I will bing a 55 home to see how it feels. It does depend on how close I can put it into the corner so it feels a little out if the way.
I can't wait to hear your thoughts!

Oh my book should arrive on Friday.
Thank you Big Al
Carter
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C. B. : Plan on using your wok to be/make a Form out of several layers of scrunched heavy duty Aluminum foil, this is your oven for the top of your barrel.
- That is straight out of "The Book", no credit to me ! Because other new fellow members are 'reading over your shoulder' From time to time I will wander
from the obvious to the painfully obvious, no problem just read it and nod your head and keep going ! The only Dumb ? is the one that didn't get asked !

I think that you can plan on building much of your future tools for using heat energy more efficiently than ever before out of what you can scrounge up, So
lets talk about that, you have craigslist, all of the FreeTrader and smart shopper papers, Want Ads, Every place you see a construction or demolition trailer
should be fair game to you though A six pack of 'old farthing slosh' often smooths things, and for a businessman like your self is a deduction ! When you
see the Demolition Trailer, and upstairs windows with plywood on them, look for smoke damage, this is often a demolition to the frame and rebuild, you can
easily score complete furnace duct work with all the piping! More of it will be salvage if you can get there to tear it out yourself, its going to be buried in cob,
we don't care about small holes ! Don't forget salvage yards, and my favorite The Habitat for Humanities RE-Stores, always worth a trip to see whats new, a
good place for big chunks of stone tile, You can often pick up for a couple of bucks and regift as 'Pizza Stones ' and deductible for a B----!

This list is not all inclusive, please add to it yourself !

I am sure you know about Builders, or Masonry sand, but we are sharing here, so I will repeat that it should feel gritty and if you work a little of it next to your
ear it should sound gritty. This is sometimes called sharp sand, but for a guy who works around pools for a living that may make you think of pool filters, and
other people Diatomaceous Earth !

Dont for get your friends the excavation Contractors who will often Know exactly where to find thick beds of near pure clay, also guys at the Highway Dept. who
Know where they have to deal with land slides/slumps in road cuts, due to heavy rains !

Just a quick word for using 'urbanite' or old pieces of concrete when in comes to infill for your bench, if its dark pick it up, if its heavy put it in as fill ! It is very
unlikely that you will have to worry about any of your rocks cracking from the steam that will be driven out of your cob bench when you fire it up, but I would
probably stay away from mud stone !

Location, location, location, Where to put your Rocket Mass Heater R.M.H.. The sign of a successful R.M.H. installation is that it is the room that is always occupied
I'm sure you have seen those cutesy signs that say " No matter where I serve my guests, it seems they like my kitchen best, this translates well in many languages
and has more to do with the warmth of the kitchen than the cooking !

You should plan on where ever you put Your 'Rocket' that it will quickly gain Pride of Place, - If it is right there just an arms length away, you will quickly learn to
tend it by ear, as you go about the other chores of living in your house, I see nothing wrong with your location, though I do want to add as a general disclaimer
that any attempt to hide your 'rocket' and put it out of the way, will result in 'tending' it becoming an interruption to what you were doing and a chore that you will
quickly grow to hate Again, I think that you will do a good job a customize the Build to give your R.M.H. Pride of Place, people who are successful at doing so soon
discover that they have a very Robust House Dragon living in their R.M.H., keeping things perpetually warm and toasty nd always ready to bust into a deep full
throated croon When well fed !

I often warn people to ignore almost all that they see of the Crap in U-Tube land! I am sure some time in your Schooling you were warned about using Wikipedia
w/out re-checking your source, So while I am sending you to Wikipedea to read the Rocket Stoves article, paying attention to the way they use the phrase
'pot skirts' while talking about heat exchangers, There is room for a little doubt about the history of ---- as written and I have heard others just as good ! Remem-
ber that they are talking about Stoves And not heaters ! For the good of the craft ! Big AL
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
You are right Big Al. When ever friends are over and I cooking they want to be in the kitchen, my kitchen is small so I cut a hole in the wall and added a small flagstone bar for them to sit at. So now I would have that plus a nice warm conversation piece.

It will be more out of the way the having it in the living room but its still right there. I would still be able to see it and hear it from the living room and kitchen so it will still be easy to maintain and enjoy.

The foil idea is good, I had thought about using large card board tubes to make my form then just burn it out.
Today I was planning on stopping by the couple scrap yards next to work to see if they had anything for me.

I think I will start on my main Dwg this weekend.
Thanks, carter
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C. B.; At the top of this page, between the sponsors ad and the permies 'film of the day' is the Permies toolbox, click on 'My Profile' and get yourself out there ! As a business man
you know that free advertising is worth just as much as the most expensive you have ever bought ! It is possible that a near neighbor has Cob experience or is a "Rocket Mass Heater"
instructor looking for the next place to give an R.M.H. Building Workshop! I bet you could put up 3-5 paying customers on your side porch !

Seriously, what have you got to loose, check out the way my posting gives some one a clear idea where I am (if they already know the area) without giving any details away ! When
you get a little closer to a build, start a new thread, and also announce yourself in the regional postings, there is also a spot to announce that you are starting a new project.

As this is at least in part a Cob build it is perfectly alright topmost a note on the fact that you are starting a build there, along with follow ups, and maybe a question or two on Structural
Cob, and Finish Cob, which is an area where I am not strong ! For the good of the Crafts, This is an effort to keep you busy and to share with other new fellow Members- Big AL

Think like fire, flow like a gas, Don't be the Marshmallow ! As always, all comments questions are solicited and are Welcome! Pyro logically BIG AL !
Satamax Antone
volunteer

Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 746
Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft high Southern alpine climate.
    
    9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAVCn0Za-iU



God of procrastination (Pratchett's style) )
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
Max : You are right, this would be a great way to upgrade from a limited use, low efficiency, Fireplace insert, to a more remote Franklin wood stove with 'Rocket Burner' Technology!
It will use wood fuels more efficiently and radiate this heat more efficiently into the room !

There is the problem of the fire place being on an outside wall and any use made of it must consider the fact that it will always act like a big heat sink !

Having said that Carter Bailey should see this, though I would rather see a more conventional build for a first Build, as It is much more forgiving and also easer to trouble shoot, And
we still get the high efficiencies, without all the Trauma/Drama - For the Craft ! Big Al
Satamax Antone
volunteer

Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 746
Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft high Southern alpine climate.
    
    9
allen lumley wrote: Max : You are right, this would be a great way to upgrade from a limited use, low efficiency, Fireplace insert, to a more remote Franklin wood stove with 'Rocket Burner' Technology!
It will use wood fuels more efficiently and radiate this heat more efficiently into the room !

There is the problem of the fire place being on an outside wall and any use made of it must consider the fact that it will always act like a big heat sink !
Having said that Carter Bailey should see this, though I would rather see a more conventional build for a first Build, as It is much more forgiving and also easer to trouble shoot, And
we still get the high efficiencies, without all the Trauma/Drama - For the Craft ! Big Al


Well, strawbales against the outer wall, and rendering or wood panneling to cover theses. And this build is prety much conventional. I would do a bell out of half barrels on the right of the fireplace, and ghave intake, and exhaust on the nearest side to the fireplace. Nothing but dead simple.
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Hi Max. I really appreciate you posting that video for me. I have already watched that one before and really like the idea but I just feel like it would be in the way. That is one reason I don't have a regular burner sticking out into the room. My living room is small plus I still love having fires so I wouldn't want to get rid of the fireplace.
There is a big bonus with a little unit like that, way less material.
I am going to mold the burning core for a 6" unit this weekend so I can get started, I am still thinking about having it in the dining room so It makes it easier to cook on plus a nice warm bench to sit on.
I think it will look really good and will be great in the cold months.
Thanks again I will keep everyone posted with updates.
Carter
Satamax Antone
volunteer

Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 746
Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft high Southern alpine climate.
    
    9
Carter, then, you might be in for a batch rocket. Fireplace looks, mad efficiency. Ok, it burns more wood than a J tube. But, you charge your mass faster, and have less tending to do.
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Max I don't know what a batch rocket is. I will look that up. I still think I would love having the rocket stove.
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Sorry I should have looked before I posted, I have watched those videos too. I just love the look and whole concept of a rocket mass heater. But I am going to build a wok burner for my 30" wok a I might build it that way. The RMH will be a fun build plus it is an art piece.
Thanks
Carter
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Big Al
I did get my book on Thursday ). I have read most of it already but I need to read it again. I will set up my profile tomorrow, you are right that would be good for people in my area plus for my work I deal with alot of people that need to learn about RMH. I haven't told you much about me besides I was an engineer for a while, after that I started a small coffee company, roasting beans and selling at farmers markets and a few places serve it to plus I work with my buddy Ben building Japanese gardens, flagstone patios, walls, ponds ext. all natural stone never really any block at all, I love it we build nature. I think between my customers and Friends at the markets and also are customers on our building sites I can teach a lot of people about RMH. It is the wrong blog but I want to show a pic of what we create and I know a RMH would fit perfectly.

I do have a couple questions for you.

As far as the core and riser go this is the heart of the whole unit and I want to build it the best I can. I really like Matt Walkers core he made. But I want your opinion too, should I try that or should I build it out of fire brick? Plus in the book they build an ash pit so I thought if I do a mold I should make an ash pit too.

Something else I am not sure what creates a better burn, if the riser is round or square? It seems like round would be better but I am new to this. If the round riser is a great way to go my friend said he has a 8" triple wall insulated stainless pipe I could have, maybe I put a 6" pipe inside of that and also add clay perlite mix to it. I would think that would be one hell of a riser plus it should last a long time.

One more thing I noticed in the book. They show in the Dwg for an 8" model there is 1 1/2" between the riser and the outside of the barrel? Every other build I have seen so far on the Internet has Been larger than that. For example a 14" dia grease drum in a 55 gallon model. That could be around a 5" clearence all the way around.

A little update. Sofar I have most of my 6"pipe for the build and have only spent $4.25 at the scrap yard, I am pretty lucky, my work is one block from 4 different scrap yards, a 55 gallon should only cost about $5 but I think I still want a 30 gallon.

This is regular galvanized pipe so I know I need to burn it first but haven't look that up yet.
Thanks for your support Big Al.
Carter
Sorry my pics are really big.


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allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C. B. : Never apologize for publishing Art. I f the Philistines can't Appreciate Art And Pictures of Art like this , They Should take a flying jump at a rolling doughnut, get stuck
and receive a drubbing about the Head and Shoulders, and any other parts that stick out !

Consider the Pocket Rocket as a prototype for all saunas (Never store wood in a sauna!) Because a R.M.H. deserves the driest wood you can give it - suddenly your wood pile
deserves 'pride of place' more on that latter, a Pocket Rocket is designed for use outdoors, but can be modified to produce tremendous amounts of heat and can be safe if
piped up correctly ! This is just a small jump from the Rocket stove !

You really need to Spend the time to be able to take the pledge that you understand the Constant Cross Sectional Areas Code, and keep Them Wholey !

I would like to do a Mr Miyagi from 'the Karate Kid' on you, and make you go through every single step so that you are truly and properly grounded on the basics - but that would
be a little like clipping a birds wings, So Occasionally You will get a series of yes but letters from me, Yes those picture look good BUT what are you going to do about the wall studs
behind that plaster- Again and again 'till I get an answer ! We both want the same thing, the good lord decided to slow my thinking down 8 years ago and I make the most of it!

Space between top of Heat Riser and Barrel should be 1.5'' to 2'', on an 6'' system and A minimum of 2'' on an 8'', only if you have a hidden design flaw will we expand these #s!

As you are going to be making this from scratch, stay with 'The Book' and go square, building it might be slightly harder but it will make you a better craftsman! You really want a
larger drum because you are going to cut a big hole in it as part of making the Transitional Area - where the hot exhaust gases which have been falling vertically change orientation
to flow horizontally through the large cone shaped feeding connection, past your 1st clean out and then flow into theThermal Mass Bench! Here I will expect you to exceed the Cross
Sectional Area a lot !

A quick use of the soap box, and I am done, Because there is so much stinking shit out there in U-Tube land, I will set some guidelines, any time I see a single 'Look what I have
done' video, With little positive in the comments section or all comments blocked, I will pay attention to the date of publishing or date of last comments, 'Old comments only' mean
that the videographer, has become disillusioned and dropped his old play toy and is off chasing the next shinny Bauble ! O.K., that having been said, If a friend sends me to a site
I will still look at It closely before I accept the word of Anyone I don't Know on you Tube !

Keep your eyes out all the time for barrels with one end removable, irreguardless of size they are better than the other kind, and mostly have Food grade materials, or Dry Powders
which have the advantage of being easy to clean up ! Wax on! Wax off ! For the Craft ! Big Al
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C.B. : You asked about an Ash Pit basically E + E have started leaving them out of the build however, This may have been a cheat created by Ianto Evans' who also built in massive
Ash Pits in the Transitional area Just after the barrel.

From comments I have heard it may be as simple as I. Evans' liked to see how long he could go without cleaning. ' I THINK ' that you will find little difference in operating your R.M.H.
ether way, Very clean and you get all of the advantage of All of your Constant Cross Sectional Area, Slightly more heat will be radiated down into the R.M.H.s base, some days that
will not be an issue ether way but it may slow the advance to your R.M.H.s Super high Temperatures, and Efficiencies.

Probably a rocket with a dirty /full Ash pit will work like one without an Ash pit ! Hope this helps, Be sure to plan on air space and air flow under your R.M.H. Big AL!
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Thanks Big Al. I do like Mr Miyagi.
On Saturday I started thinking I would build a core out of the thinner fire brick and then build a mold around that, I thought that would be really durable and insulated really well. I can just as easily build one out of the bigger bricks.

As far as the square brick riser I know I can do a good job, I am not a mason but I am good at building. I started thinking about the round because it seems like everyone is going that route, maybe cause that is easier?

Ok you asked about insulating the wall, if I build this unit in the dinning room the only studded wall is the 2 1/2' wall, the other two are brick and plaster. I also plan on wrapping the back and sides of the barrel with cob so the radiant heat comes toward the room and also insulate between the bench and the brick walls so I don't loose all my absorbed energy so quickly.

I think this would be an awesome addition to my dinning room but I do have a concern. You did mention cutting a hole in the side for my exhaust! With my bench hight I do think i would have to come out below the barrel but at the same time maybe that spot could be a reclined spot to relax.

My main concern is if I would even have enough mass for this bench to be worth building or should I go back to the living room idea? The L shaped bench in the dinning room would be roughly 6' x 9' not including barrel and if I space it 3" off the floor it would be 15" high and 18" to 20" wide of mass, so my sitting hight would be about 18". I would have one 6" pipe going through the bench and drilling strait through my brick wall to go outside from the bench, you won't even see the exhaust.
Is that even enough mass? If you feel that could still be enough mass I will start working on my real dwg's. I do love the idea a a nice warm dinning room and also being able to cook there too.

Here is a photo for you of my dinning room with a weird sized drum I got from the scrap yard. That one is 16" x 32". ( I don't plan on using it, i really like the size but also do not have a lid for it. ) but its sitting close to the height it would be on my core.
A 30 gallon would be 18" x 29"
A 55 gallon would be 23" x 35"
Just wanted it in the photo.

I am also attaching the living room Dwg that didn't show up before.
Thank you you for your support Big Al
Carter


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allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
Carter B. : I like both locations, the size of your house is doable with ether an 6'' system or an 8'' system. Where do you want primary warmth, if a warm upstairs is important
to you I think you can easily sneak an exhaust under your stairs, and from that location heat will certainly travel upstairs . If your older house has the ceiling registers I think
it has this is probably a mute point !

You should go to ernieanderica.info you want to read and understand the 1) Rocket stoves section, 2) the Site Planning, and 3) the Earthen materials list.

By now you should be testing yourself, You should be able to explain everything connected to the build except Constant Cross Sectional Area, and here you should be able to
do it for 6'' 7'' and 8'' with just paper and pen. Of course you should Know the characteristics of good clay, so that you can test your own clay before you get a couple of yards
dumped in your front lawn, special delivery from the Excavation Contractor, that you spoke to for all of 37seconds,and you mentioned you were looking for clay !

Ihope that you are getting some of your regular work done, dont forget to put yourself out there, you don't know who is a near neighbor with MAD Cob or Rocket skills, and
don't be afraid to go chat up a potter or two, in college or not, about what happens to the mixed assortment of clays left over from a days playing with clay slip and green pottery,
you may find yourself blest with a very knowledgeable helper, and lots of free kiln grade clay !

For the good of the Crafts !Big AL
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Ok I am glad you like both locations. I was a little worried that if I did the bench in the dinning room there wouldn't be enough mass. And yes with everything I have read I do understand everything I need and how it works. I wish I did have ceiling registers. That is something I could easily put in to help. I have to say I didn't think about this until you just mentioned getting heat upstairs. I cut the vent for the bathroom completely out when I cut a hole in my wall for bar top going into the kitchen. So I had a space heater in there for when my girlfriend stayed over last winter. I haven't fixed it yet. In other words you got me thinking thank you, I could put a new vent in the dining room to help heat the bathroom if I go with that location. That makes that location have a huge bonus, warm bathrooms are nice. But the best location for the unit would probably be the living room when it comes to heat rising up the stairs.
I am a little torn on location. I will think about that.

Just today I saw a friend that might have the size barrel I want plus he works for a company that makes insulated sheets that can with stand up to 2200 deg and he said he can give me some for the build, and I stopped at a bar ,one of the guys there said he had about 20 or so of the good firebrick I could have.

You are right talking about what I am trying to build everyone thinks its such an awesome idea and they are also thinking about supplies they can find for me. I am still shocked out of 50 or more people I have talked to about RMH in the past week only one had seen a version of that in another country. I love it, I think it's awesome and can't wait to build one.

I do believe I read there info about location but I will go read it again.

I am still a little stuck on the dinning room because the thought of having fresh bread or pizza ext cooking right next to the kitchen table just seems so great. And that would really make my dinning room feel like a warm comfortable place.

Thanks so much Big Al for the support.
Carter
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C.B. : I hand selected and polished this one for you ! Go to the Rocket Stove Forum/Threads list and click on ''rocket mass heater--finally completed and it works !''

Lotsa good stuff and a little eye candy ! For the Good - - BIG AL !
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Hi Big Al. Where you talking about the heated floor posting? Materials are coming together. Today I stopped at my shop after finishing working with Ben and that guy dropped off 36 2.25 x 4.5 x 9 fire bricks for free. Tomorrow for work I have to go get boulders from my favorite sand and gravel place so I will be able to find a bunch of nice small pieces of granite for the face of the bench, plus I do have alot of awesome pieces in my yard too.
Today I also found a place that sells blue clay for 6 bucks a ton. That would be an awesome look compared to the traditional clay, I haven't seen it yet but that should be fine for making my cob right?

You didn't comment back when I mentioned building the core with the thinner fire bricks and then molding around that. It looked like Ernie's newer cores were made like that in one of his videos? I could be wrong.

I am getting exited that I will be getting close already to having all my materials on hand. For one week of talking to people and gathering I am doing pretty good.
I am writing down everything I spend for this unit.
So far the only store bought materials have been fire clay and perlite. We will see but for this build I should be under $100. I really didn't care if it did cost 4 or 500 but at this point now I want to see how little I can spend using items that have been thrown out, now they will have a new life. )
Thanks big al
Carter
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
I did just notice that the thin bricks in my wood burner have already started to crack after a couple of years. So maybe that's a good reason to stick with the bigger ones.
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C. B. : Sorry to burst your bubble, Blue clay is wrong on many levels (I have Been told ) I once went off looking for lost young heifers ,and found where they had crossed a creek,
I swear that I tried to save about three steps by crossing where they had not churned every thing up ( It was an ancient Ox-bow, and going through, rather then the long way around
I would have walked in three different townships ! Boy did I get stuck, boy did my clothes get trashed, ( mom always blamed that load of clothes for killing her Wringer Maytag )

I will do the research again why you can't use it for a masonry project, but a couple of buckets will make smearing the outside with clay to stop air leaks in your first outdoor model
a snap. God it feels like good clay, that would be a great intro to a Potter- " hey, I want to use local clay as part of my own home made mortar for the mortar between fire bricks,
but a friend told me blue clay is worthless '' (It must not be thought of as worth much as you can get it for $6 a Ton! Gee I bet it would seal the bottom of a new dug pond Good !

Yes the last video was for two types of in floor heat, one was looking out on a Japanese-ish Garden !

I am so far behind the times that my last Rocket Mass Heater is completely made with 100 yr old, soft bricks that most people call orange, mine have streaks of baby shit yellow !
I am planning a new perlite and clay slip Heat Riser, which I hope will last 3 years, the one following that will be ether a gee whizz commercial model or an other D.I.Y. build out of
Foamed Geopolymer Concrete ! With the right mix I can be close to 4000 F ! About a year ago I assisted at a E + E build * and they were using full new Fire bricks laid on the bricks
sides and wrapping that in mineral wool ! ( they showed up to teach the class and that was the brick on hand and it was Free ! ) since then they have done thin fire brick and Perlite
and Clay Slip Heat Risers !

I think that you must be in a unique place to call up a few Excavation contractors to hunt for other clay, a secondary source is your local, and county, and state highway Depts. They
will know where they will have to go after a heavy rain to deal with wash outs in Road cuts where they have experienced slumps and land slides, leading to washouts due to super
saturated and unstable banks of clay ! Remember that all of these people will have to pay to dump this spoil some place, and if you are closer than- - they will want to know how
much you can take !

By all means, do keep track of every penny ! (and keep looking for more !) For the Good of the craft, I hope this was timely and helped !

Think like fire, flow like a gas, Don't be the marshmallow! As always, your comments and questions are Solicited and are Welcome ! PYRO - Logically big AL

*You can get an idea of the build that was done on a pre existing cement slab by going to " Two more great working Mass Heaters in upstate New York - - - '', and I helped !
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Please let me know. I have been searching and can't find an answer on blue clay. It is cheap but even if it were more costly I would go that route because its different. I will search for other too.
Thanks
Carter
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C.B. So far all I can find is some clays with high calcium fail around 400 F just like the lime in cement ! big Al still looking !
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Hi Big Al. Hope your having a good day.
Out of all the research i have done all I have really found is that regular clay is missing two elements an blue or grey is missing three, so the blue has less iron.
I really thought after you posted that someone would give there 2 cents. I will try to get a sample tomorrow morning so I can make some sample cob.
I did make a test unit in the yard with the normal size fire bricks and it worked great, I am amazed by how it works and for just having the right size feed and right size riser without anything else there was almost no smoke once it got going. I think the gasses were about 7 to 800 in the top of the tube. So I cooked a steak with oak and maple

I want to build the core with the thinner firebricks then cast around that but the casting will also include the barrel platform and also my 6" exhaust will also be cast right into it so it will be a real tight clean system.

My friend works for an insulation company, he is going to give me some sort of crazy light weight and dense 2" foam that can handle upto 2500 deg so I think I can line my floor with that instead of bricks and air channels. That will save a couple hundred pounds. Lots of thoughts.
I really like having a new project.


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allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
C. B. : you could be in this game for twenty years and learn something new everyday ! The golden rule is related to a low expansion/shrinkage rate, fireclay 60 is not wonderful
because of the high temperatures it can take, It is great because of the low Expansion/contraction rate, reducing Cracks, if we use the right amount of 'sharp or builders, or masonry'
sand we we pack sand around the individual Micro particles of clay and greatly reduce the amount of shrinkage, this is called origin Cob, but probably should be called Evans' Cob !

I bet one of the other compounds missing in blue clay was listed as an Aluminum silicate, but what research i have done says not all blue clay IS deficient in AlSi, se what your bricks
tell you !
Great job on the out door test, though haveing heard your future House Dragons throaty purr (and a Steak), is reward enough !
I would still put down some 1/2 or 3/4v plywood to spread things a little, and if the foam looks like it can stand the load, i would use an Elmers glue to glue a heavy weight Aluminum
foil to the top of the foam, shinny side up, as an radiant heat barrier, and check things out carefully before committing on bringing your test build into the house !

My memory plays tricks on me,have I sent you to Village Video as a short cut to a series of videos you can watch on you tube, it is a series of videos showing the 1st 3/8ths of a build
on a wood floor by Ernie and Erica Wisner ! You can also go to their site ernieanderica.info and find their checklist for equipment and materials needed for a future build !

I'm on kitchen duty, time to stir my own pot ! Have Faith, there is a rocket in your future ! Big AL !
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Glad to here from you big al. I am a little confused, you said fire clay withstands the heat and doesn't expand and shrink much so that's good for not cracking as much. But it sounds like you think I should just use regular clay with masons sand instead? Did I get that right.
Yes hearing the dragon is awesome and made me even more excited. I was thinking a fire clay and perlite around my thinner firebricks (fire clay slip for bricks) would make a great core.
I am sure there are new things to be learned every day.
I want to make the best possible core I can since it is the dragons heart.
Thanks Al
Carter
Larry Ng


Joined: Jun 25, 2013
Posts: 7
Location: San Francisco, Ca
    
    1
Carter look at the clay portion of this link for the reason not to use blue clay http://villagevideo.org/products/rmh/scenes/
allen lumley
pollinator

Joined: Mar 16, 2012
Posts: 1979
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
    
  25
Larry Ng ; Could you please post your great answer at the Forum/Thread ' Blue Clays ', so that people directed there can link to it from there, it is beyond my capabilities, and we
don' want dead or broken Threads ! Thank you very much, Big AL
Carter Bailey


Joined: Sep 21, 2013
Posts: 27
Location: Akron, Ohio
Thank you Larry. I thought I watched all those videos before. I missed that one. I am glad I didn't go out of my way on Friday to get a sample of the blue clay.
Thanks again
Carter
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://stoves2.com
 
subject: New to rocket stoves.
 
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