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May I suggest? Wiki? Link Collection? Best-of?

Joel Hollingsworth
volunteer

Joined: Jul 01, 2009
Posts: 2103
Location: Oakland, CA
CurrentWave wrote:Hey Paul, I really think you should have a feature like Appropedia to go along with this forum.  Some place where wisdom, info and knowledgeable articles, written by everyone, can sit like a library. 

When someone posts something really good in the forum it eventually grows old and moves into the distant background.  Unless you have the right key word you don't know how to search for it.

Something a lot like your articles, but with contributions from others.

~Jami



That sounds like a good idea.

The community here could also develop a presence on an existing project like Appropedia.

A collection of favorite links, or a "best posts" directory, might also be helpful.


"the qualities of these bacteria, like the heat of the sun, electricity, or the qualities of metals, are part of the storehouse of knowledge of all men.  They are manifestations of the laws of nature, free to all men and reserved exclusively to none." SCOTUS, Funk Bros. Seed Co. v. Kale Inoculant Co.
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14974
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
I set this up once before.  A guy said he wanted to fill it with what is permaculture.  I have to admit that the software I used was kinda lame.  But he never put anything in it.  And then the spammers found it.  Wow - that was a lot of spam!

I can fish around for software to do this and set it up.  Anybody have suggestions for software? 

It could take a big slice of time to set up and get it going proper.  I'll take that time if you all actually use it. 




sign up for my daily-ish email / rocket mass heater 4-DVD set / permaculture playing cards
Joel Hollingsworth
volunteer

Joined: Jul 01, 2009
Posts: 2103
Location: Oakland, CA
paul wheaton wrote:I can fish around for software to do this and set it up.   Anybody have suggestions for software? 

It could take a big slice of time to set up and get it going proper.  I'll take that time if you all actually use it. 


Haven't used this, but it looks OK:

http://www.wikimatrix.org/wizard.php

A group within appropedia, related to this forum, might be less effort.  The benefits would go more to that site than to this, but I agree there's some risk it won't be used much.
Jami McBride
volunteer

Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1779
    
  10
Hey Paul, I really think you should have a feature like Appropedia.com (Wikipedia for permaculture)  to go along with this forum.  Some place where wisdom, info and knowledgeable articles, written by everyone, can sit like books in a library.

Right now when someone posts something really good in the forum it eventually grows old and moves into the distant background.  Unless you have the right key word you don't know to search for it.

Could we do something a lot like your articles, but with contributions from others indexed in a very user friendly manner?

Just keeping you on your toes,

~Jami
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14974
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
So, Jami, my question to you is the same as above:  If I spend a whole bunch of time getting the software running, you're gonna put stuff in it, right?

Jami McBride
volunteer

Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1779
    
  10
Gulp! 


Sure I would - whatever you need.

~Jami
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14974
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
So here are the ones I'm looking at right now.

And I'm kinda leaning toward the first one. 

Anybody have any feedback?
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14974
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
I've narrowed it down to five:

http://www.wikimatrix.org/compare/BoltWire+DokuWiki+Foswiki+PmWiki+TWiki

Still favoring the first one:  BoltWire.

Jami McBride
volunteer

Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1779
    
  10

Sorry Paul, no advise for the software as I've never set up one of these before - so it's your call....

I'll see if I can find anything helpful tomorrow.

~Jami
Jennifer Smith


Joined: Jul 14, 2009
Posts: 669
Location: Zone 5
How about cross references...like how on the amaranth topic I kinda got off on raspberries...sorry about that. 
jeremiah bailey


Joined: May 05, 2009
Posts: 343
I might be able to squeeze a page or two into my spare time. Some editing as well.

Foswiki looks to be a fork of Twiki. Its emphasis seems geared to the level we'd use. I know TWiki is one of the original wiki systems. I became familiar with it about 8 years ago. I'm not familar with the developments since then. Getting one set up and usable should be relatively simple. At that point users can start adding content. Fine tuning can come later. What kind of system will it be running on? I'm experienced with unixish systems, linux, bsd, etc. and associated tools. I could assist with setup on anything except windows/mac.


"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller
--
Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14974
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
Well, I uploaded something and got it to barely hobble along.  And then I went to montana to look at property (and I drive back tomorrow).  Moments before I left Jami started tinkering. 

What Jami has done looks nice. 

Jami was wondering if the one I picked was going to work out.  Jami, what do you think?

Jami McBride
volunteer

Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1779
    
  10
Hey Paul, I'm back to not receiving notices of posts so it's lucky I saw you had posted here...

I just sent you a PM on my recommendation after playing with Boltwire for several days, talking with Dan it's creator, and setting up an account to test out Twiki. 

I am excited about making this happen, and would be okay with over seeing it - but I think we might need to swing a new deal 

All we need is for you to come back.

~Jami
Joel Hollingsworth
volunteer

Joined: Jul 01, 2009
Posts: 2103
Location: Oakland, CA
I'd like to volunteer some writing on compost, since it's the topic I have the most experience with, and the one where my professional expertise seems most applicable.  I'll stash it here, and then post it to the wiki once I'm able.

An epigraph from Genesis 3:19:

       "By the sweat of your brow
       you will eat your food
       until you return to the ground,
       since from it you were taken;
       for dust you are
       and to dust you will return."

Composting is the complementary process to gardening.  Nature is full of living things springing up from soil, and returning to soil.  And the traditions and techniques for managing the processes of burgeoning, useful species go hand-in-hand with techniques for returning them to the garden once they have fulfilled other purposes.

One important difference is that rich, living soil is much more stable than edible crops: delays and errors of judgement might delay the process, or allow some resources to be lost, but composting is much more forgiving than planting or harvest.  As the quote above suggests, a return to soil is just about inevitable.

The primary goal of composting is to transform materials into a state that is more useful to plants.  Nutrients in compost are absorbed by plants, and other components of compost can make the soil a better place for plant roots.  In this regard, failure is not really an option: some organism will find a way, eventually, to produce soil.

A secondary goal is to remove undesirable features of wastes.  This is where an understanding of compost can make success more likely.  Some methods of composting are better than others at handling aesthetic problems like foul odors or an unpleasant appearance, ecosystem management issues like viable weed seeds or scavengers, and issues that affect plant or human health such as contagious diseases and toxic synthetic chemicals.

General methods

Composting, like gardening, relies on the action of living things.  It can be broadly divided into different general methods, based on what sort of organism does the bulk of the work.


  • [li]"Cold" composting is mostly driven by fungi and bacteria that are active at room temperature.  Methods like deep mulching and hugelkultur make good use of inputs' physical structure in the medium term, exploiting rot-resistant fibers to control moisture, light, and air.  Cold composting takes relatively little work or expertise, and ultimately gives the best results in terms of nutrients and soil structure.  Unfortunately, it is the slowest method, and requires care with problem inputs.  Room-temperature fungi are the fastest method to break down some long-lived synthetic chemicals, but pathogens and weed seeds can survive.[/li]
    [li]"Hot" composting uses thermophilic bacteria and fungi, specialized microbes that thrive in temperatures that would kill most living things.  It requires a fairly large, dedicated space, and some skill, but is reasonably fast and very thorough.  The high temperatures kill all but a few pathogens and seeds, and allow microbes to digest a surprising array of substances.  Although the structure of the inputs is usually completely lost, along with some nitrogen, the method produces useful amounts of heat, carbon dioxide, and water vapor.[/li]
    [li]Single-species colonies of worms or insects can operate very quickly in a relatively small space.  This sort of system can be managed so that strong odors don't develop, although it is relatively slow to contain the odor of foul-smelling inputs.  It doesn't handle most synthetic chemicals very well.  The process of composting can be seen directly, and worms or fly larvae can be harvested to feed chickens or to bait fish hooks.[/li]
    [li]Anaerobic composting is a subset of cold composting, where an enclosure and/or wet inputs prevent access to oxygen.  The organisms that thrive in these conditions produce methane gas rather than carbon dioxide, and most often the intent in setting up an anaerobic system is to use methane as a fuel.  Some predominantly-anaerobic systems are set up to handle kitchen waste in an extremely small space.  [/li]

  • paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    Joel,  did you get the emails about the wiki?

    paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    Joel?

    Are you getting email these days?

    Jami McBride
    volunteer

    Joined: Aug 29, 2009
    Posts: 1779
        
      10
    Me too....  Joel, did you get the email I sent yesterday about the wiki?

    ~Jami
    paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    The wiki might be ready to roll.  I think we just need some initial content.

    Jami did 90% of the work.  I spent a lot of time tinkering to get the URL's lean and clean. 

    Joel Hollingsworth
    volunteer

    Joined: Jul 01, 2009
    Posts: 2103
    Location: Oakland, CA
    ops:

    I'll check my email over the weekend. 

    Thanks for the repeated reminders.
    paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    Well, Jami did most of the work and I went into the code and fiddled a bit. 

    If you go to www.permies.com/permaculture you should see the wiki.  If you find any bugs, please let us know. 

    The content needs to be organized and cleaned up and what not. 

    The last time I set up a wiki for permaculture, it was promptly loaded with megabytes of spam.  So this one is closed to the folks here.  If you read this and you wanna add content to the site, please send me an email.

    Joel, I think you are already set up.  And I think Jami and I are hoping that you will go in there and get some content stuff happening. 

    Jami McBride
    volunteer

    Joined: Aug 29, 2009
    Posts: 1779
        
      10
    Hum.... Paul it looks the same as the last time I was in there, what have you done exactly?

    I have spent weeks of work on the wiki, since nothing comes easy in the set up process it can feel like every little thing is a huge task.

    There is still more tweaking to be done, and as you say more content to add, I'll see what I can do in that regard.

    paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    I haven't done anything since fixing the URL stuff.

    Well, other than move to montana. 

    paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    Joel?

    You asked.  Jami and I worked pretty hard to get it running ....

    Joel Hollingsworth
    volunteer

    Joined: Jul 01, 2009
    Posts: 2103
    Location: Oakland, CA
    Just got started.

    Great work, guys; I'm sure I'll spend more time on it in the future.
    Ken Peavey
    steward

    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2126
    Location: FL
        
      50
    How about a link to the Wiki on the homepage or on the main forums page.

    Now that the wiki is up and running, how do I get a username and password to gain access?  If access is limited to prevent destruction, where can wiki material be placed/sent for editing/approval?

    Wiki wanted thread?  A place to campaign for volunteers to wiki on particular subjects.

    Susan Monroe had an excellent post on seed saving in the organic methods forum, is there a place I can post a nomination for Best-Of?


    Seed the Mind, Harvest Ideas.
    http://farmwhisperer.com
    Jami McBride
    volunteer

    Joined: Aug 29, 2009
    Posts: 1779
        
      10
    All excellent ideas....

    Here are some issues we are facing:

    1.  One of the 'issues' concerning posting materials is conciseness - many times a long thread discussion can have nuggets of gold dropped here and there among chit chat and off topic info.  Sooooo in that situation someone with the time will have to do 'clean up' in order to move the main content to the wiki - finding such someones (editors) is the issue I speak of.

    2.  Creating an article from a string of posts, sometimes in different threads is another.  Forum discussions can be a bit all over the map sometimes, with no agreement, resolution and/or even argumentative.  This is 'good' fodder for discussion, but not so good for an informative article.  Paul has much looser standards than I do in this regard.  I don't want to be irritated in my search for information (this is just me <g>.

    3.  And yes, it is not open to the public because of spammers and destroyers, as you say

    The goal of the wiki articles are to offer clear and complete information covering a topic, either already under discussion at the forum or an article that promotes a new discussion at the forum.  But mostly to be a place where the topic information doesn't get lost or grow old, where it can be indexed and searched like a library, linking back and forth with the forum.

    I can post to the wiki - send me your nominations    I'll do what I can. 

    If you/anyone would like to volunteer to write an article on a topic contact me.  We have many skilled people who may have an article or two they are just itching to write.  Or if you have a link to a good how-to/informative article you would like to submit that would be great too.

    If anyone would like to volunteer to edit threads, to boil 'em down to just the good info let me know - you can pm me if you like.

    There are still some tweaking to be done to the wiki besides the addition of content, it's a work in progress.... but if your ready to help with content that's great!

    In the future others (editors, writers and topic experts) will be given access to post directly to the wiki, and of course everyone can give recommendations, criticisms and their opinions.  The Wiki Belongs To Us - Permies!



    Edit:  Susan's Seed Saving article has been added. 
    One other thing I forgot to mention.  The wiki follows it's own formatting rules.  So text copied and pasted still needs formatted using the wiki rules (http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/MarkupMasterIndex) so it is not always a quick and easy move to the wiki as one might envision - just FYI

    paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    Jami,

    If you think the software is holding together well enough, then I think it would be wise to allow a few others in.  Perhaps give kpeavey access?

    I would like to think that in a few months we would have more than a dozen folks adding stuff there.

    Jami McBride
    volunteer

    Joined: Aug 29, 2009
    Posts: 1779
        
      10
    Sure, just need a screening process like you mentioned in the beginning.

    * People who have been around the forum for a time, and demonstrated their good-guy temperament - who want to write articles and/or edit forum threads and post to wiki would all be great wiki-ers!  So if these people would make their interest in the growing of the wiki known I can give them access....

    So kpeavey - what say you?  What a wiki pass?

    One other idea - maybe we should add the author's name at the top of the articles posted.
    paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    I like the idea of the contributors being listed.  And I like the idea of links back to the forums.

    Ken Peavey
    steward

    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2126
    Location: FL
        
      50
    The contributor being listed makes good sense.  If someone takes on a wiki article, they can assume responsibility for that article-serve as the editor, assimilate and moderate discussions on that particular article.  I've not examined the wiki in great detail but I do see a Discussions tab.  This would allow anyone to discuss the article, but the listed contributor would be ultimately responsible for content.  If multiple contributors are listed to show due credit, the primary editor would be listed first.  Should a primary contributor abandon an article, the co-contributors would serve as an informed pool from which to select a new primary.  Default falls upon the shoulders of site admins, in particular: Jami McBride as the Chief Wiki Editor.

    As far as a wiki pass, I've got a lot on my plate already.  An occasional article is not out of the question.  I've only been around for a couple of weeks, not really enough time and forum interaction to firmly establish reliability or competence.

    Hackers are able to puncture wiki security.  What sort of file backup system is in place?  Would this be the task of the primary contributor?

    Jami McBride
    volunteer

    Joined: Aug 29, 2009
    Posts: 1779
        
      10
    kpeavey wrote:
    The contributor being listed makes good sense.  If someone takes on a wiki article, they can assume responsibility for that article-serve as the editor, assimilate and moderate discussions on that particular article. 

    I've not examined the wiki in great detail but I do see a Discussions tab.  This would allow anyone to discuss the article, but the listed contributor would be ultimately responsible for content.  If multiple contributors are listed to show due credit, the primary editor would be listed first.  Should a primary contributor abandon an article, the co-contributors would serve as an informed pool from which to select a new primary.  Default falls upon the shoulders of site admins, in particular: Jami McBride as the Chief Wiki Editor.

    As far as a wiki pass, I've got a lot on my plate already.  An occasional article is not out of the question.  I've only been around for a couple of weeks, not really enough time and forum interaction to firmly establish reliability or competence.

    Hackers are able to puncture wiki security.  What sort of file backup system is in place?  Would this be the task of the primary contributor?


    Hum.... Paul really wanted comments to happen in the forum, and be linked to and from the wiki article, and vice-versa.  So this Discussion tab probably should be removed from the wiki (note to self).

    So you haven't firmly established reliability or competence yet, hey?  Well that will teach me to listen to Paul - LOL     

    Okay, how about we say you keep sending me ideas for posting like Susan's Seed Saving, and I'll hold on the wiki pass until you feel ready to write an article - hows that?

    As for backup and security - that's a good question, and one that Paul is being forced to deal with as we speak.  But to answer to directly, backup will be taken care of by Admin and those with access to the server.

    Do you have any expertise in the area of software/server security? 


    Ken Peavey
    steward

    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2126
    Location: FL
        
      50
    I propose a section be added to the forums:  A Permaculture Library.  Subsections would include, but not be limited to Permaculture Wiki, Best of Permies, Book and Media Reviews, News and Information, Code of Conduct

    Permaculture Forums
    1 Permaculture
    2 Regional events, resources, jobs, opportunities, etc.
    3 Library
    ...3.1 Wiki
    ...3.2 Best of Permies.com
    ...3.3 Book and Media Reviews
    ...3.4 News and Information
    ...3.5 Code of Conduct
    4 Other

    ---
    3.1 Wiki
    An open forum for discussion of wiki articles.  1 article, 1 thread.  OP should include a link to the wiki article.  If wiki article does not exist, OP should be edited to include the link when article is created. 
    Anyone can post anything and everything, primary contributor is responsible for moderating the thread, assimilating inputs, updating the wiki article.  If primary contributor is unable to delete/edit posts in accordance with CoC rules, they alert administartors through PM.
    An appropriate metaphor: everyone can have their own specialty wiki crop(s) to tend and raise.

    3.2 Best of Permies.com
    Open threads for nominations and discussion, with links and quotes.
    Locked threads to contain the BoP, possibly organized by forum, with links to original post.

    3.3 Book and Media Reviews
    Someone wants to talk about Elliot Coleman's latest work, this would be the place.  Lots of bookworms out there. 
    Books, TV, movies, internet blogs, newspapers, newsletters, internet sites, video clips.  Here's your chance to give it two thumbs up or a gong.

    3.4 News and Information
    Links to and discussion of current events, news stories, talk about the weather.  I started a small thread in Other called 'In The News.'  Keeping that sort of thread clean would be useful.  Post the news link in there so folks have a simple to navigate source of news.  If someone wants to discuss an article in more depth, start a thread.

    3.5 Code of Conduct
    A locked forum for Administration to lay down the law.  Would include policy/guidelines/principles for such things as spam, deletion of inactive accounts, ad hominem attacks, flaming, inappropriate remarks, corrective action, mission statement, disclaimers.

    Jami McBride
    volunteer

    Joined: Aug 29, 2009
    Posts: 1779
        
      10
    My left brain loves it....

    One problem I see right away is - it is very responsible and organized (great for responsible and organized personalities) however, Paul's stance is - you suggest it, you had better be ready to step up and do it, and you already declined an invitation to get involved   

    Other than this I think it would be a good way to integrate the wiki (and more) into the forum in a substantial way.....  Let me talk with Paul, and think on it a bit and we'll see what develops - okay?

    paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    3.5:  code of conduct:  be nice.

    That was easy! 

    Ken Peavey
    steward

    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2126
    Location: FL
        
      50
    What?  Huh?  er..uh
    I didn't decline an invitation, I just said I had a lot on my plate right now.  I have yet to work through all the forums or establish a pattern of lasting credibility.  The greenhouse is in a perpetual state of having no roof yet.  I've got a dozen chicks and a pound of worms coming sometime next week and no good way to keep them warm.  I have to call that guy about some land for a PYO farm.  We've got a shutdown at the phosphate plant coming up for 10 days, then a paper mill in Fernandina Beach for 15.  My attorney won't answer my calls about my insurance claim. and I have GOT to get a haircut.  I'm swamped.

    "Jami McBride" wrote:you suggest it, you had better be ready to step up and do it

    You're gonna guilt me into working for a living around here aren't you?
    *shakes head*
    ohh, man...
    (note to self: shut up)

    Before I forget:
    3.6 Links

    If you need some help, I'd be willing to start with deleting spam.  Mind you, I'm not administrator material.  I'm way to tolerant to play referee.  As far as software problems, my tools are, in order: fist, stick, hammer, bigger hammer, new computer.


    Ken Peavey
    steward

    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2126
    Location: FL
        
      50
    Unless you stop me, I'm going to add section 3.0 a week from now.
    Ken Peavey
    steward

    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2126
    Location: FL
        
      50
    Still got the flu, getting better, but I won't be working in Bartow this week.  Can't get everyone on the job sick.

    This gives me a few days to set this up and get it populated.
    paul wheaton
    steward

    Joined: Apr 01, 2005
    Posts: 14974
    Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
        ∞
    Adding stuff to the wiki is a good idea.

    Adding new forums is something I want only me to do.

    Chris Watkins


    Joined: Nov 20, 2009
    Posts: 74
    Location: SE Asia.
        
        1
    I'm veeeerrrrry late to this topic but I see that the wiki's up. I know from experience the work that's involved with maintaining a wiki, and in taking it each step further in growth. So, a tip of the hat to Paul and his fellow laborers.

    Now...

    Joel Hollingsworth wrote:
    A group within appropedia, related to this forum, might be less effort.  The benefits would go more to that site than to this, but I agree there's some risk it won't be used much.


    Just to plug the idea of a group with a set of pages within Appropedia:
    * It's much more visible, and more likely to show up in a web search - so you're sharing ideas with a wider audience.
    * It's a wider collaboration. Someone from anywhere in the world might learn from or add to the information that you share.
    * In a sense, yes, "The benefits would go more to that site than to this". But I'd encourage everyone here to think of Appropedia as your site. It's an inclusive non-profit community project for the global good.
    * There's a tech team already doing the hard work, so you can concentrate on sharing your permaculture wisdom. (That said, our 2 main tech volunteers are very overworked, so we're hoping to find an extra hand on that front.)
    * We've handled spam and vandal attacks already, and have tools to help us against future attacks. (Not being complacent, though - we also have regular backups and weekly public sitedumps.)
    * It's pretty open in terms of content and format. For pages specific to the group, you might create subpages, e.g. [[Permaculture Forums]] as a page about the forum, and then if someone wants to share links on a specific topic, that page might be (say) [[Permaculture Forums/biogas links]].

    Yours for an abundant, sustainable planet...


    Appropedia.org: wiki for sustainable design, permaculture, appropriate technology & all that jazz.
     Me: Wiki and open knowledge consulting.
     
     
    subject: May I suggest? Wiki? Link Collection? Best-of?
     
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