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Silly English

Andrew Monkhouse
steward

Joined: Feb 08, 2009
Posts: 563
    
  71
Devon Olsen wrote:i really don't like your "silly english" block stuff paul...just sayin

From CodeRanch, where that rule originates:
People often have to type SMS messages with their thumbs on a tiny keyboard, while riding on a subway, being bumped by fellow passengers. Sometimes they have to pay by the character! Therefore, in an SMS, it's somewhat acceptable "4 u 2 wrt lk ths" (for you to write like this.)

But if you're posting on JavaRanch, you're probably using a real keyboard, sitting at a desk, in a comfortable chair. We don't charge by the character, and in fact, we strongly encourage you to use all the characters you need to express yourself clearly. Using abbreviations like "u" and "r" and "2" for "you", "are", and "too" makes your writing much harder to understand, especially for the many Ranchers for whom English isn't their native language. It also suggests that you don't care enough to ShowSomeEffort when presenting your question.

Likewise, calling the many adult Ranchers "d00dz" is not going to win them over to your cause; in fact, using that sort of horrid "h4x0r353" is likely to drive many people away -- people who likely would have been able to help you.

Please take the time to write out words in full, to check your spelling, and keep your language standard. The atmosphere of the Ranch will benefit, but more importantly, you will benefit because doing so will lead to your questions getting better answers.

"Plz" is not a word in the English language.

I'm not a regular poster here, so you probably don't care about my opinion. But over on CodeRanch, I help out quite a bit. I know that personally, when I see a pretend word like newb, my brain stops and processes it - it breaks the flow of my reading. After 2 or 3 such breaks in my reading, I give up and go on to help someone who's post is more legible.
Tannim Kyraxx


Joined: Dec 03, 2011
Posts: 24
Andrew I can kinda see your point at least when it comes to not wanting to put up with L337 sp3ak but words like noob/newb and such are common enough that they have their own place in the english language the same with the SMS inspired contractions fighting against commonly used new words is kinda like fighting time or the weather languages change they grow and degenerate as long as they can effectively put across ones ideas they still serves its purpose.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

I've seen a few versions of that sentence nearly every one I've shown it to in person has been able to read it on the first go with no issues maybe if english was not your native language it would be different but nitpicking about these kinda things seems silly when they distract you from the main point of a conversation
Devon Olsen


Joined: Nov 28, 2011
Posts: 997
Location: SE Wyoming -zone 4
    
    6
i sure see the purpose of it. but i think that allowing said abbreviations would be better for the purpose of helping others understand english, as the poster of said word can explain that it is a shortcut for the real word if someone asks, which is quite easy to do, i didn't always know txting or forum lingo until i was able to pay for my own phone and until i began posting in different forums, if all these forums had blocked this ability, not only would i have never learned these phrases and shortcuts(instead of being forever in the dark as to what they mean) but occassionally some of the humor is taken out of posts when correct spelling is used throughout, though i never use texting or forum lingo when i talk or write a paper, typing and texting are actions that, to me have become associated with the use of these abbreviations and has actually led to a habit of me typing some shortcuts out of habit, i try not to use anything thats TOO hard to read though

anyway, not attempting to be a huge whiner... just expressing that it does get in the way for me sometimes...


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Burra Maluca
Mother Tree

Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 4670
Location: Portugal Zone 9 Mediterranean Climate
    
176
Tannim Kyraxx wrote:
I've seen a few versions of that sentence nearly every one I've shown it to in person has been able to read it on the first go with no issues maybe if english was not your native language it would be different but nitpicking about these kinda things seems silly when they distract you from the main point of a conversation


I think it's fair to assume that, as this in an international forum, there are going to be many people using these forums whose native language is *not* English, and they too should be able to benefit from and participate in these forums.


What is a Mother Tree ?
Tannim Kyraxx


Joined: Dec 03, 2011
Posts: 24
And if something is unclear then having a discussion can help to broaden understanding of how language is used and growing examples i would use are things like prolly=probably kinda=kind of thnx=thanks as examples you can usually tell by the context sure writing a whole message of abbreviated words would be annoying but used here and there meh i don't see the problem
Fred Morgan
steward

Joined: Sep 29, 2009
Posts: 972
Location: Northern Zone, Costa Rica - 200 to 300 meters Tropical Humid Rainforest
    
  12
Tannim Kyraxx wrote:And if something is unclear then having a discussion can help to broaden understanding of how language is used and growing examples i would use are things like prolly=probably kinda=kind of thnx=thanks as examples you can usually tell by the context sure writing a whole message of abbreviated words would be annoying but used here and there meh i don't see the problem


As a native speaker of English, and knowing two other languages (I speak Spanish more than English, now) I can tell you that things like "thnx" will confuse the heck out of non-native speaker. It is a very very high level of understanding a language to be able to know that thnx = thanks, especially for someone who is from a language that follows their rules, unlike English, like Spanish.

English is odd because it really is understood from concept, not from spelling. There are some great examples out there of this. Most languages assume that just a little deviation, and it is a different word. Though I am very good at Spanish, I can only recall easily one example of a word sounding the same, but having a completely different message (como means how and also, I eat ..)

But in English, we have pear, pare, pair and bear, bare, and..... I could go on.

So, I think you overlooked how difficult it is for a non-native speaker and this site doesn't want to exclude them. Though July will make eight years living in a Spanish speaking country in a part of the country there is little English, doing business, with lots of workers, reading, writing, listening, talking, etc. The La Nacion (national paper) defeats me at times, because it isn't normal Spanish. I have no problem at all reading anything else in Spanish.

And what is the point? For me, there is no time lost between typing thnx and thanks. So, it creates a barrier, and saves nothing. When you are texting with a friend you know understands you (or IM, etc), why not? And the benefit of course is reduction in characters, which for slow typist, makes sense (or those who don't have a phone with a full keypad). But, really not necessary, nor appropriate in my opinion, for a international forum.


Sustainable Plantations and Agroforestry in Costa Rica
Tannim Kyraxx


Joined: Dec 03, 2011
Posts: 24
Well I hope i don't offend anyone I'll try to keep that in mind but I'll have to trust that my points can make it across when i slip up and type how i speak
Dale Hodgins
pollinator

Joined: Jul 28, 2011
Posts: 3888
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
    
  56
Since English is "the natural language of the human being", we should all strive to use it correctly.

I have witnessed the butchery of English by many native speakers, mostly from the U.S. while other members such as Burra Maluca from Portugal manage to communicate just fine in a language that is not their first.


QUOTES FROM MEMBERS --- In my veterinary opinion, pets should be fed the diet they are biologically designed to eat. Su Ba...The "redistribution" aspect is an "Urban Myth" as far as I know. I have only heard it uttered by those who do not have a food forest, and are unlikely to create one. John Polk ...Even as we sit here, wondering what to do, soil fungi are degrading the chemicals that were applied. John Elliott ... O.K., I originally came to Permies to talk about Rocket Mass Heaters RMHs, and now I have less and less time in my life, and more and more Good People to Help ! Al Lumley...I think with the right use of permie principles, most of Wyoming could be turned into a paradise. Miles Flansburg... Then you must do the pig's work. Sepp Holzer
Burra Maluca
Mother Tree

Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 4670
Location: Portugal Zone 9 Mediterranean Climate
    
176

Dale, you need to travel more...
Dale Hodgins
pollinator

Joined: Jul 28, 2011
Posts: 3888
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
    
  56
Burra Maluca wrote:
Dale, you need to travel more...


Burra, I was complimenting you in an edit, when this viscious attack was added while I typed. Go buy a lottery ticket. The chances of this happening must be one in a million

Only my comment in bold print was visible when our steadfast steward responded to my first posting.
Burra Maluca
Mother Tree

Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 4670
Location: Portugal Zone 9 Mediterranean Climate
    
176
Aw, it was really a secret offer to borrow our caravan if ever you found yourself in Portugal.

But the compliment was a little premature - English *is* my first language. It's the Portuguese I struggle with. I've been here for seven years now and am still not fluent but I have developed a deep appreciation of the difficulties in international communications. It's not just the words, it's the whole culture and mindset that go with the language. I'm sure there are plenty of differences just with UK and US English. Think 'pylons' for example. I'm sure you're thinking of something entirely different from the enormous metal structures holding up high tension electric wires that our local crazy woodpecker keeps bashing his head against.
Dale Hodgins
pollinator

Joined: Jul 28, 2011
Posts: 3888
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
    
  56
Burra Maluca wrote:Aw, it was really a secret offer to borrow our caravan if ever you found yourself in Portugal.

But the compliment was a little premature - English *is* my first language. It's the Portuguese I struggle with. I've been here for seven years now and am still not fluent but I have developed a deep appreciation of the difficulties in international communications. It's not just the words, it's the whole culture and mindset that go with the language. I'm sure there are plenty of differences just with UK and US English. Think 'pylons' for example. I'm sure you're thinking of something entirely different from the enormous metal structures holding up high tension electric wires that our local crazy woodpecker keeps bashing his head against.


The error I see most commonly is in the usage of the words then and than. Then, has to do with time. Than has to do with a comparison. Millions of people only know one of these words or they mix them up and use them randomly with the rest of their pidgin English. "Is arteechowkes better then potatos in hugelculturez !". I blame the parents, TV and teachers. >

How many camels in that caravan? Is a harem included?
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 15108
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
I wish to express that when it comes to criticism of the site, it is a bit of a peeve of mine. I was getting pretty hot under the collar reading some of this, but have now calmed down.

I just returned from a speaking gig in Great Falls, and , of course, a mountain of email waits for me. And other stuff. I'm trying to not let this make my anger worse.

I think the thing that steams me is that when somebody wishes to suggest an alternative to what we have now, it would be good to start with some appreciation of the way things are, and then, respectfully suggest an alternative.

By "peeve" what I wish to convey is the urge to kill, crush, run through the blender and ban eight ways to sunday.

As for the feature built into the forum software, I remember seeing some posts that were riddled with that text abbreviation stuff. It was awful. And I know other staff at coderanch were getting really annoyed. So I'm glad that the software does something about that. once in a while it blocks something legit, and so I think it is too strict. We can fix that.

I know that I use some goofy words, and when it stops me with something I usually take that out of the dictionary of blocked stuff. I also know that there were some other ideas proposed that I put the kybosh on - because I think it sucks out some of the fun - and some things I do myself.

There is a way to respectfully request change. And even when requested properly, not all change is implemented.



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Tannim Kyraxx


Joined: Dec 03, 2011
Posts: 24
I want to apologize as it seems like this kinda steam rolled outta a very minor off hand comment on what was otherwise a interesting discussion of fungi not sure why people started getting so touchy about it but if it'll help you vent your spleen to ban somebody go for it I like the site seem like there are some good people here and I think I could have a lot of good conversations but if people are going to be this touchy just because someone thinks somethings odd/funny maybe its not the laid back environment it seemed at first
Fred Morgan
steward

Joined: Sep 29, 2009
Posts: 972
Location: Northern Zone, Costa Rica - 200 to 300 meters Tropical Humid Rainforest
    
  12
Perhaps another way to put what Paul said: Assume there just might be a reason for why the forum works the way it does and that the owner isn't a senile old geezer who doesn't care a bit about those who post here.

Paul isn't all that touchy really, but imagine if I poked you in the same place 1,000 times. Well, that pretty much describes what it feels like at times to be an owner of a forum. One could assume if software was written in order to exclude a certain type of writing, that it was due to a problem, not just because someone wished to make life difficult. After all, it costs either time or money to write a filter.

I am an owner of a forum (not this one), and if I had a dollar for every time someone implied that I was a mean old ogre for having some kind of rules and enforcing them even though the vast majority of the site totally agrees with those rules (and there are very few), well, it would make the forum lucrative.

A bit of sympathy for the owner of a site and empathy as well goes a long way - often criticism of a site assumes that the owner has no feelings.
Devon Olsen


Joined: Nov 28, 2011
Posts: 997
Location: SE Wyoming -zone 4
    
    6
well i am sorry if i offended you paul, or anyone else for that matter, as tannim said, it really just started as a side-comment, i had never intended to make an entire thread devoted to complaining about it
i was just complaining, as i often do, but i wasn't trying to imply that the owner or moderaters of this forum were purposely trying to make things difficult, but expressing my slight frustration with the blocking of my three-letter alternative to thanks, though it may not have made a difference, if i ignore it than it may never change, so i brought it up rather than just letting things stay the same without an opinion being voiced, any criticism i make of this site isn't because i expect it to be perfect or because i think you did a terrible job, it is most often either a minor complaint expressed in a random comment(as was the case here) or it is an effort to help you produce a better site that is more friendly to more users(and i do realize this isn't an overnight process, even if the code seemed simple, there would still be testing to be done and then some, which of course doesn't happen very soon at all if your even as busy as i am, and im sure many of you on this site are twice as busy as i am)
i may not agree completely with the way that paul runs the site but icertainly do NOT feel he is some mean ogre enforcing rediculous rules, his many videos have definately taught me quite a lot so i must say i am quite grateful for the contributions that paul has made to spreading knowledge of permaculture

i do realise this is an international forum, to be perfectly honest i don't think there is a single forum i frequent that isn't, this is the only one i have that blocks abbreviations and thats the only reason i noticed the difference, im not sure what exactly the other forums do to make the abbreviations work, but a majority of the time people will simply ask if they have a question and then they know, and most people aren't too worried about others using proper english spelling or grammer, thats just my experience with other forums, i realise you may have your reasons for running this site differently and that it may cost loads of time and/or money to implement the code that some of these other forums use so i just hope everyone realizes this was a meaningless complaint that blew up into a much larger discussion than was originally intended, it'd be nice if i could use t h x for thanks, but if i can't well, it ain't gonna kill me
 
 
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