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Juglone, planting under walnuts

Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    9
as I just mentioned in my thread under recommendations, I am going to be planting a small group of walnut related trees, one black walnut, one english carpathian walnut and one butternut, in a small nurse woods this year, as well as several other nut trees such as chestnut, hickory nut, hazelnut, almond and hardy pecans.

I have read over and over and over that few plants will grow near a "walnut family" tree because of the juglone, however, i've never grown a walnuyt family tree before so this will be a new experience for me.

Any of you that have any of these type of trees or know someone who does, what do you have that successfully grows in the area of them, that is hardy to zone 4, or at least zone 5.


Brenda

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Susan Monroe


Joined: Sep 30, 2008
Posts: 1093
Location: Western WA
This Ohio U site lists some species that will grow under walnuts:  http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1148.html

And from the U of MN: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/components/8464-30uabwt.pdf

And from Ontario, Canada  (at the very bottom of the page)
http://www.gwmastergardeners.ca/FAQ_Trees.shtml

Maybe some of these suggestions will work out for you.

Sue
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    9
thanks so much, i checked out the first site already and it is amazing what plants are not affected by the Juglone, and most of them are plants that are growing in that area where the walnuts will be planted, so i'm thrilled..absolutely thrilled. I wouldn't be growing tomatos back there anyway, but there are cherry trees nearby, as well as some other plants mentioned, and i am growing blackberries in that area too..but, most of the garden type plants will be about 75 ' away from the walnut plantings anyway, except a few maples..hope they'll be ok..other than that..all the plants mentioned that grow in our area, that are safe to plant by them are plants that i would choose to plant in that area..so that is way cool..you are great folks !!
Kelda Miller


Joined: Jun 30, 2007
Posts: 763
    
    1
It may be on the list (I'm too lazy to check), but I've heard that Mulberry is a great one to soften the effects on Juglone if planted between walnuts and other species. I've got some planned for my garden.

Unfortunately, it's the north side of the walnuts that I'm dealing with, which means that mulberry will be in the shade. Hopefully it will still be happy and produce a lot.

Maybe there's a particular variety that takes shade well.....

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Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    9
I actually have 2 mulberry trees ordered as well as the walnuts, and when I was drawing up a diagram last night i was thinking that just south of the walnuts would be nice for them, between there and the orchard/garden about 75' south of where I was going to plant the walnuts.  I have a "nurse" woods going with mostly aspen trees, and a few maple. There is some fairly clear areas in the woods about 75 feet North of the orchard and I was going to put nut trees in those  higher cleared areas (we have a lot of high water table areas around, but this is a higher dryer area. I also have, besides the walnuts and mulberries, several other nut and other trees ordered and am planning to plant some of the other nut trees in the nurse woods. I havev 2 chinese chestnuts, 2 hickory nuts, 2 hardy pecan and 6 hazelnuts ordered, the walnuts are 1 each english, black and butternut. I have a pair of paw paw ordered as well and they are on the list of tolerant trees.

It will be interesting to see what does grow. I have a hedgerow planned to the west of htis area along the property line, and the plan now is to put in Canadian Hemlock and Red Cedar seedlings, which grow wild on the propertpy now, as well as cuttings from my autumn olive and shrub roses and honeysuckle and start some oak, catalpa and Jerulsalem artichokes as well from the trees and plants i have
Leah Sattler


Joined: Jun 26, 2008
Posts: 2603
my grandmother had a black walnut that prevented the expansion of her garden, she also had a mulberry I suppose that it why! great tidbit, thanks! 


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Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    9
I was able to hike back into my nurse woods today, it is about 600' x 600' and mostly aspen trees as we had it pulped about 30 years ago and they ruined the woods and stole all the hardwood trees.

I was fortunate to run across some beautiful maple and white ash trees while i was walking in the woods..and i was "pacing" off measurements for the nut trees that I have ordered..i'm going to plant them among the aspen trees and space them about 40 to 50 feet between our garden and the maple trees (first maple tree is about 90' into the woods and second one about 110' into the woods) ..so i'll put them in between the maples and the front leading edge of the woods so they don't affect my fruit and vegetable gardens.

i have ordered one carpathian walnut, one black walnut, on butternut, 2 chinese chestnut, 2 hickory nut, 6 hazelnut, 1 hardy almond, and probably some others i can't think right now..but the 3 in the walnut family will go at least 40' into the woods but not back far enough to affect my baby maples.

about 250 ' back into the woods are some young white ash trees that are nearly reaching mature size as well..but they won't be affected.

i did notice that the nurse aspen trees are to the stage now that they are beginning to die off..so we will be removing a lot of the dying aspens (which will rejuvenate them causing thousands of baby aspens to grow as well)..and we will make  a road through the woods with the tractor, cutting up the dead trees (except leaving some for the wildlife) and using it for firewood..I plan to plant understory trees in the woods too and some shrubs and berries and begin to work on the forest floor plantings as well..but might not get to too much of that this year..a big job at 600 x 600 feet..some swamp..some canadian hemlock and cedar near the back.

it will be fun though, getting a start on getting it how i want it and saving the good trees for a future of hopefully hardwoods and nuts..
Susan Monroe


Joined: Sep 30, 2008
Posts: 1093
Location: Western WA
Does the hardy almond need another almond to cross-pollinate?

I read some years ago that botonists did testing on a large (60 acres) stand of aspen on CO or NM, and they discovered that the whole thing was one plant!  I knew they suckered, but I didn't know they suckered THAT bad!

Sue
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    9
how true it is about aspens, they are rampant spreaders..if they are happy.

one plant? well i can say we did try to kill off some at one time thinking that they were one plant, but they didn't die..(roundup at the time it had to be completely cleared for a house and drainfield)..but..i do know ..you cut one aspen and you have at least a thousand babies in a year.

there are situations that it doesn't happen, but they do spread...but they also die young.

occasionally we have a few aspens that grow old..but generally about 20 years and they start dying off..that is why they are good pioneer or nurse trees..

walked back 620 ' into the woods on Sunday..and found a couple more maples and ash  but for the most part it was dying aspens..old ones..back there..there are some beautiful old ones in the woods edge, but it seems the deeper the aspens get into the woods the less likely they are to be alive and well.

that's ok..we can burn them as firewood and babies will pop up when we cut any with life in them..to replace them..you can replace an entire grove in about 10 years with nice size babies.

i prefer though to replace them with hardwoods..nuts, mulberries, paw paw, etc..
Susan Monroe


Joined: Sep 30, 2008
Posts: 1093
Location: Western WA
Those large central aspen are probably the 'mothers'.

I heard that they tend to be short-lived, esp at lower elevations.

Sue
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 15469
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
I'm pretty sure that the juglone problem is only with BLACK walnut - not with the other walnuts.  If this is less than accurate, I would appreciate somebody correcting me.



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Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    9
they do say black walnuts are the worse but that the other walnut families have some problematic juglone, just not as much..

i have only ONE black walnut coming, it will go a little more isolated than the other trees..

have discovered however that a lot of my trees were winterkilled this year..unfortunately..we are between zone 4b and 5 generally but we had a very very cold and wet winter..lots of ice too.

i have lost over a dozen trees this year..that I bought..and it really disappoints me.. but I've had that happen before..one year i had a huge pine tree just turn brown in the spring, it had died from strong cold winds..there was a lot of tree death that year..this is another bad year..that was about 30 years ago..and they say that this is the worse winter since the 70's for us
Susan Monroe


Joined: Sep 30, 2008
Posts: 1093
Location: Western WA
I was recently reading about the differences in winter conditions that affect the kill-rate of trees and plants, and it said that if you have rain (or a high water table, I guess) and then a hard (Michigan-type) freeze, the likelihood of heavy losses are good.

But if you have a good snowfall before the extremely low temps hit, the snow insulates the soil.  It still freezes, but not to the extent and depth of freezing without the blanket of snow.

And I would guess there's not much you can do about it unless you have (literally) tons of mulch.

Sue
 
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