the worm is a cheap ticket*
Permies likes meaningless drivel and the farmer likes Nature vs Wall St permies
  Search | Permaculture Wiki | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies | World Domination!
Register / Login


permies » forums » permies.com » meaningless drivel
Bookmark "Nature vs Wall St" Watch "Nature vs Wall St" New topic
Author

Nature vs Wall St

Chris Holcombe


Joined: Feb 22, 2011
Posts: 70
Location: Zone 7a Philadelphia
I had a chance to write up a blog post on my wife's blog about the return on investment of plants vs traditional stocks. What do you guys think? I glanced over some numbers like fertilizer ( nearly free from composted trash ) and water ( rainwater or dehumidifier water ) because I like to practice the permaculture way. http://www.rascaldesign.biz/1/post/2011/12/nature-vs-wall-st.html

I've found it interesting to think about what if plants yielded the same return that stocks did. We'd all probably starve to death. A 10% return on your $25 apple tree would be like 2 apples a year lol!
tel jetson
steward

Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 3109
Location: woodland, washington
    
  58
when I give wagon rides during pumpkin season, I stop for a little Q&A about the farm. if folks run out of farm questions, I open it up to anything; relationship advice, help with homework, investment tips. generally at least one person will take the bait and ask for a tip, so I suggest one or another fruit or nut tree. good for a laugh, but also actually a good investment, though I'm not fond of reducing things to monetary terms.


find religion! church
kiva! hyvä! iloinen! pikkumaatila
get stung! beehives
be hospitable! host-a-hive
be antisocial! facespace
Chris Holcombe


Joined: Feb 22, 2011
Posts: 70
Location: Zone 7a Philadelphia
Yeah I agree that breaking it down into monetary terms probably isn't the best idea. There's so much more that is gained by planting beautiful plants around your property. Some people think in terms of money and I tried to gear this towards them. My father for example likes to see what the return on investment is for things. If I say hey look, I can take your $25 investment and turn it into a 20yrs worth of apples that might turn his head. I have a few other friends that are like that. They read it and said wow I had no idea you could gain so much from a fruiting plant. So yeah it's good and it's bad. If even a few people are surprised and plant some tree's because of it then I think it was worth it!
John Polk
steward

Joined: Feb 20, 2011
Posts: 6661
Location: Currently in Seattle. Probably moving 1 hour north by end of the year.
    
138
Each time you see somebody buying a $5 pint of berries in the supermarket, just think "A single berry plant can give you a 100% ROI each and every year."
tel jetson
steward

Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 3109
Location: woodland, washington
    
  58
Chris Holcombe wrote:Some people think in terms of money and I tried to gear this towards them.


many, many people think in terms of money. and I don't really see a problem meeting people where they're at. to be clear, I really liked your post, Chris, and if appealing to folks' baser desires is what it takes to get some more fruit growing, I'm in favor. I try to avoid framing things in ways that I believe cause problems, but that's just my own personal habit.
Jonathan Byron


Joined: Apr 16, 2011
Posts: 225
I've thought along those lines before - you are absolutely right, on some scales, a fruit tree can give tremendous return.

There are things that most economists seem to get wrong ... for example, I see a few hours of gardening as recreation and exercise and therapy, but they see it as a cost for some reason, and go on to disparage gardening as unprofitable. Probably the same reason that my neighbors see leaves as a waste instead of a resource.
John Polk
steward

Joined: Feb 20, 2011
Posts: 6661
Location: Currently in Seattle. Probably moving 1 hour north by end of the year.
    
138
Economists see it as a cost because you are investing time, and "time is money".

If you are not investing time in a garden, you may need to invest it at the gym, or worse yet, at the psycoanalyst's office.
Chris Holcombe


Joined: Feb 22, 2011
Posts: 70
Location: Zone 7a Philadelphia
If I counted my time as money I'd never be able to do anything
Just fixing normal things would "cost" me thousands. Of course for my time to really equal money I need to have a backlog of paying projects that I can work on instead of fun projects. A lot of times that's not the case though. Sometimes I have extra side projects I can work on in addition to my normal work.

I agree Jonathan. The time in the garden is more of a therapy/exercise for me instead of a money losing proposition. If I counted my (few) hours of working on the plants I have around the house it would certainly reduce my return on investment.
Milton Dixon


Joined: Sep 09, 2009
Posts: 33
It's funny.

When you compare the ROI in $ on stocks vs. plants, the return on plants is better.

When you compare the ROI in any other significant way for stocks vs. plants, the return on plants is still better.


Milton Dixon
Permaculture Productions - Great Lakes Permaculture Portal
jacque greenleaf
volunteer

Joined: Jan 21, 2009
Posts: 464
Location: Burton, WA (USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 5) - old hippie heaven
When people ask me to explain permaculture, I always start with "it's about closing your energy loops."

Money flowing in and out of your life is an energy loop. So I think it's totally appropriate to talk about ROI to people if that's what they relate to. Just take the opportunity to point out that ROI is a shorthand way to talk about energy!
David Goodman
volunteer

Joined: Dec 14, 2011
Posts: 345
Location: Zone 9a/8b
    
  14
I admit to thinking in terms of money when it comes to my gardening. It just seems to be an easy method for measuring labor and value.

One thing that really hit me was how many fruit trees I could buy with a single mortgage payment. By paying off my house, I was able to stop giving money to the Evil Banking Cartel and start plowing it into my land (Not literally! Don't get on me, no-till aficionados!). I now have enough edibles on my 1/2 acre food forest to feed my family and half the neighborhood in a few years.

The Left likes to argue about the evil of corporations... the Right likes to argue about the evil of government.

Well, both corporations and government have conspired against us, the small landowners, famers and permaculturists with regulations (like Paul's lightbulb video) and restrictions on what we can grow, sell, plant, eat, drink, etc. I think if more of us could see that limiting the power at the top (wherever that top may be, gov't or corporations) can be done simply by growing our own food, recycling our own organic "waste," bartering with neighbors and pulling a John Galt on the system... boy, gov't and Wall Street would start to become irrelevant.


Permaculture, bio-accumulators, rare plants, tool reviews and lots and lots of gardening inspiration - a new post every day: http://www.floridasurvivalgardening.com
branimir marold


Joined: Dec 07, 2011
Posts: 25
didn't you mean Wall St. vs Nature .. Nature versus .. anything is so illogical .. I'm almost speechless

how much calories does 25$ have, vitamins - minerals or at least fibers? how do people consume money? anyone have experience on growing money?

sorry I can't help it, i was born this way :s nothing personal only natural


nothing personal - only natural
tel jetson
steward

Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 3109
Location: woodland, washington
    
  58
branimir marold wrote: anyone have experience on growing money?


makes a decent substrate for several edible mushrooms.
branimir marold


Joined: Dec 07, 2011
Posts: 25
lol church xD

Vidad MaGoodn wrote:The Left likes to argue about the evil of corporations... the Right likes to argue about the evil of government.


don't know about you but I like to argue about good think I'm somewhere in center .. in cross fire
nancy sutton
volunteer

Joined: Feb 22, 2010
Posts: 327
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
    
    9
I think Wall St vs nature makes more sense for me. It's pretty obvious that "Wall St" (i.e. the proverbial 1%) owns much, if not most of, US government, i.e., the 'bailout', regulatory capture, etc. (Not quite so true in, for example, Canada and Germany, where housing bubble didn't happen.) It's a long story.

If the US government were truly independent and representative, free of industry "pressure", the complaints of small farmers, permaculturists, etc. could/would be heard and reasonably balanced with consumer safety, and the popularity and spread of PC would dramatically increase - but we have to live with slow and steady reality.

Fast or less fast, I love the idea that "we" can do an 'end run' around the big boys by DIY, or DIO - 'doing it OURselves', and if this 'limits the power at the top' so much the better :)

Based on his extensive experience, Buckminster Fuller came to the conclusion that attacking the current situation isn't effective; designing a better and more attractive alternative. that inevitably supplants the current system. is the only way to improve things. And, of course, we ALL (in many ways and forms) are doing that! I believe that more and more people will see that Nature's generosity is the way to go, not Wall St.'s competition ethos.



It's time to get positive about negative thinking    -Art Donnelly
Cj Verde
pollinator

Joined: Oct 18, 2011
Posts: 3149
Location: Vermont, off grid for 22 years!
    
  54
nancy sutton wrote:...(Not quite so true in, for example, Canada and Germany, where housing bubble didn't happen.)


There's a tremendous bubble in Canada, it just hasn't popped yet. Haven't you sent the million dollar crack shack?
Million Dollar Crack Shack


My project thread
Agriculture collects solar energy two-dimensionally; but silviculture collects it three dimensionally.
nancy sutton
volunteer

Joined: Feb 22, 2010
Posts: 327
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
    
    9
I think I get it... low interest rates are now creating a housing bubble in ... at, least, Vancouver. I quoted what I heard Chrystia Freeland (a Canadian pundit) say on cable news this a.m.
Cj Verde
pollinator

Joined: Oct 18, 2011
Posts: 3149
Location: Vermont, off grid for 22 years!
    
  54
nancy sutton wrote:I quoted what I heard Chrystia Freeland (a Canadian pundit) say on cable news this a.m.


They can't see it because they're in it. Also, the tar sands bit also keep prices stable, for now.
Australia's bubble is just starting to burst. The really scary one is actually in China. Whole cities are empty. Built on speculation.
 
 
subject: Nature vs Wall St
 
cast iron skillet 49er

more from paul wheaton's glorious empire of web junk: cast iron skillet diatomaceous earth sepp holzer raised garden beds raising chickens lawn care flea control missoula electric heaters permaculture videos permaculture books