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organic war on fleas! | (Read 9551 times) |
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vanesscordes
Posts: 5
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June 11, 2008, 06:37:20 PM |
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one more thing:
I don't have electricity in every room in my house, though I'm sure other people do, but this trick can work for closets, basements, etc. To do the water traps without electricity, put an unscented floating candle in a shallow bowl of water.
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Cyndi
Posts: 9
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July 28, 2008, 02:15:08 PM |
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I work at a no-kill cat shelter, and of course trying to keep the flea population under control is always a battle.
Do you still suggest the DE for a shelter. Our building is an old motel that was converted over so the areas are large. Of course from your article it seems that the dehumidfier wouldn't be a good choice, and as for airconditioners, we pretty much only have 3 window units to try and deal with the whole building and many fans! One area all we have to use are fans. Being in Northern Indiana by the lake we deal with high humidty on a constant basis.
Besides DE, do you have any other thoughts or suggestions? We are a not for profit organization and can't afford to spend large amounts of money. We've periodically done Frontline, but again that is a poison and costly (a couple of thousand dollars for roughly 350-375 cats). We've also used SevenDust 5% in the past, but again...poison.
I appreciate any and all help.
Cyndi
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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August 02, 2008, 09:17:16 AM |
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Cyndi,
I'm going to guess that you are dealing with floors, and not carpet, is this correct?
I think DE is gonna become your best friend in the world. You should buy it by the 50 pound sack.
If you just use DE along the edges of everything, I think you will, over time, see your flea populations dwindle down to nothing over a month or so. Then just leave the DE there and it will act as a preventative.
I wished I lived in your area. I would really like to take your worst rooms and conduct some experiments.
If you have a room that is really bad, I would be powerfully curious to try the dehumidifier trick. Maybe with two or three dehumidifiers and no DE. Really see if it works (which I think it will). After a day or two of this, the room should be flea free. If you do this, please, please, please tell me the results!
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kattakiss
Posts: 1
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August 17, 2008, 07:49:49 AM |
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I have a question about the flea traps . . .
Here is some background: I have never had a flea problem with my cat until this summer. Lots of rain and we moved into the high density university area. About two days ago I noticed some little fleas performing circus acts near and around the window ledge where I was sitting. I looked around at all the window ledges where our cat likes to sit with a flashlight at night and noticed more.
I have all hard wood or brick floors and live in Albuquerque, NM. I have been using DE along the edges and vacuuming. Also I have been combing my cat with a flea comb and we will bathe her today (she is going to freak!). I set flea traps each night. 3 nights running in each trap I have been seeing 5 to 20 tiny fleas. I have seen 1 or 2 bigger fleas in some traps but usually no bigger ones. Are these the adults? Are the others babies and haven't laid eggs yet (Hope! Hope!) Is there a distinction between smaller fully formed fleas and the bigger ones? My understanding was that they spring from the pupa as adults. Paul mentioned in his article that there were probably not more than 30 adults in living any one typical household at one time. I'm trying to make an accurate assessment of how close I am to shutting down the flea circus in my house. (Hey they didn't come to me and get the proper permits!!) We don't have alot of bites on us - very few in fact. And I don't see them hopping anymore where I first noticed them.
thanks!!
mom of Kattikiss
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Cyndi
Posts: 9
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August 17, 2008, 10:55:13 AM |
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Thanks Paul!
I will let my director know what you suggested. If she and the board members agree to the investment of both items (DE and Dehumidifiers) I will be sure to let you know the results!
Cyndi
Manager
Fried's Cat Shelter
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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August 20, 2008, 07:21:52 PM |
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Cat kisser 
The little fleas and the big fleas are all adults. I would speculate that the bigger fleas have been around a while. If you are doing all the stuff I suggest, i suspect that you probably won't see any more big fleas - only little fleas.
You should continue to see little fleas for four weeks. This is from the eggs that were laid by your jumbo fleas a few days ago that will take four weeks to turn into fleas that will KILL! (ARG, DIE, DIE, DIE YOU BLOOD SUCKING VERMIN!)
Because you have hard wood floors instead of carpet, you will eliminate the fleas faster than the rest of us. Just don't skimp on the DE!
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kaymee
Posts: 3
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August 31, 2008, 07:28:36 PM |
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I have recently found out that I have fleas in my apartment. I have two strictly indoor cats, and noticed one of them scratching incessantly and in an uncomfortable state all the time. I combed her with a wet paper towel to see what was on her and it was salt and pepper like particles. Then I started seeing the fleas themselves on the floor and my socks. I FREAKED OUT! I hate bugs of all kinds and can't stand the thought of invaders in my home. I am a bit of a control freak, and this seemed out of my control. I brought my cat to the vet for a diagnosis and sure enough it was flea dust, though he found no fleas on her. He prescribed ADVANTAGE for both my cats. I then proceeded to spray my house with home flea control sprays, threw out all my area rugs, and washed everything within my reach on the hottest water and dryer settings. There was a small decrease, but then it seemed like it went back to being the same. There were never many, maybe 4-6 a day found on socks or the floor. This, however is 4-6 per day TOO MANY!! We decided to flea bomb which was so stressful to get everyone out of the house and remove toys(I have a 16 month old son). We waited longer than the suggested period of time to return with the cats, then I kept my son out for the rest of the day.
This brings me to today. I read your article about DE and immediately went out to purchase it. We put it in corners, and under all the furniture, in the bathroom and in the kitchen. Since yesterday, we have found a total of 3 fleas.
I now have no rugs in the house and I am praying this stuff will work. I don't think I have a bad infestation. We tried the lamp/soapy water traps but only found 1 or 2, sometimes none in the traps. My biggest concern is my son, as he is closer to the ground than my husband and I are. Sometimes they jump on him and I freak out! He is very fair and blonde so they are easily visible.
My other concern is my cat. One cat is doing fine, the other cat which we took to the vet initially is still dropping dead or dying fleas off her when she sits on my kitchen counter. She has been treated for over a week now. She is also sneezing a lot and spraying a blood tinged spray when she does. She also seems a little lethargic. A few days after treatment, she was her old self again, but now seems to have the symptoms of a cold or something similar. I know you are against Advantage and Frontline and the like, but I came into this with ignorance and my biggest concern was ridding my home of intruders taking my son into consideration. It is a holiday weekend and will call the vet as soon as he returns.
We have been vacuuming the furniture daily and keeping the air running to lower the humidity.
After all this, my question is: can I sprinkle DE on hardwood floors then vacuum that up after a short period of time? Would that be effective? And also, with DE down in the areas I mentioned above, will this affect the fleas already on my cat?
Like I said before, the vet didn't find any on her, and the ones I find are near death, but if the DE works in the rooms, will the amount on my cat decrease?
Thanks for any help. Fingers crossed that the DE will work.
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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September 02, 2008, 07:26:55 AM |
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Sorry for the delay in my response, I was out of town.
First, and most important:
DON'T PANIC!
Fleas are icky and creepy, but the reality is that they are nothing more than a minor nuisance. The flea bomb did more damage to your child than a thousand fleas.
If I were in your home I would probably hire some service to come and scrub every surface and everything in the house to get all of the flea bomb residue off of everything. I wouldn't be able to bear the thought of living in a house that had a flea bomb in it. (shudder)
Okay, moving past my own issues ...
The more DE you use, the more effective it will be. The good news is that if you have hardwood floors, getting rid of the fleas will be about 10 times easier than if you had carpets.
I would just lay the DE on thick in all the nooks and crannies. I would flea comb the cats daily. And I would vacuum daily (and vacuum up a little DE along the way). I would set flea traps in all the rooms every night. From all of this, I know that I would have complete confidence that I have the situation completely under control, as the flea traps will verify in about four weeks.
Leah makes and excellent point. I would check with neighboring apartments to find out if they have any flea issues. After all, it would be pretty annoying to never get rid of the fleas because there is a perpetual flea fest next door. I might even offer to help them get rid of their own fleas.
If you want more instant results, it might be worthwhile to look into the dehumidifier trick. Perhaps rent some super-duper dehumidifier for a few days.
As for the cat sneezing blood. DE is a dust and when airborn can cause sneezing or coughing - just as any dust would. If the cat is sneezing blood, then I would say there is something else going terribly wrong and I would suggest that you get this animal to a vet. Preferably to a vet that is DE aware so that the vet will not errantly blame the DE.
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kaymee
Posts: 3
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September 05, 2008, 06:27:45 PM |
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I put the DE down in the areas where my son cannot reach it. We vacuum the furniture daily. I combed both cats and neither had a flea on them. I occasionally see a dead or dying one near them, presumably from the Advantage doing its thing.
I also put it under the cushions of the couch, then flip the cushions in a couple of days, vacuum the exposed side, and let the other side get exposed to the DE.
Today has been a good day and have not seen any, while yesterday I killed about 10 in the course of cleaning the house. It was a particularly hot and humid day here in NJ. I have been keeping the central AC running to dehumidify as much as possible. It looks like all of our efforts were working except yesterday when we had that bad day and felt so defeated.
The light traps were never very effective for us, catching only one or two here and there when we know we saw many more alive during the course of the day.
The ones we've been seeing the past couple of days have been small in comparison to the previous ones. Could this mean they are the newly hatched ones and it could signal the end is near?!?!?!
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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September 06, 2008, 07:27:21 AM |
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I figure the small ones are newly hatched. I could be wrong.
About the flea traps: Are you keeping the light near the water? If the light is too high, it just lights up the whole room. You want the light to be concentrated in one spot.
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kaymee
Posts: 3
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September 06, 2008, 01:45:07 PM |
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Yes the light is right above the water, so close that I thought it would fall in.
I think my situation is getting better. Do you think the DE on the couch cushions and flipping them is a good game plan?
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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September 08, 2008, 10:22:49 AM |
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It certainly doesn't hurt. If you think fleas are up there, it sounds like a reasonable plan to me.
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silanehead
Posts: 1
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September 08, 2008, 04:38:53 PM |
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I noticed that Hunting Supply stores have Cedar chip filled beds for dogs that are supposed to be unappealing to fleas. In fact, many insects do not like Cedar. I have a ritual in early summer where I'll get two giant bags of hampster bedding and walk around my yard hand casting it all over. after a couple of good rains it will work its way down and you cant see it anymore. I cant guarantee that it will totally flea proof your yard but it does seem to stop re-infestation. The smell is'nt bad either.
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Karen W
Posts: 1
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September 27, 2008, 07:37:06 AM |
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I wanted to thank you for the article about not panicking about fleas. I was beginning to do just that. I have never had fleas in my home and now I do. I will order diam earth right now. I use that in my garden for slugs but didn't think to use it in the house. The part of your article about plague was a bit hard as my 6 year old son died of plague when he was bit by a flea. Your information on the plaque is entirely accurate. We lived in a remote place in Nevada. Thank you for accurate balanced information. Karen W
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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September 29, 2008, 10:01:58 AM |
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Karen,
I am very sorry to hear about your loss.
With your first hand knowledge, could you help us to better understand the issue?
My reading suggests that there are less than 20 people that get the plague in north america each year. And something like 2 to 4 die each year. Apparently, plague is easy to treat with stuff like penicillin provided that it is caught within the first few days. Of course, with the way our medical stuff is these days, we generally are of a space where we just want to shake off most illness and not see a doctor. And my understanding is that the symptoms of plague are a lot like the flu.
Further, nearly all of the people that get the plague are actually studying the rodents with the plague and are pretty savvy to watching for signs of it and properly treating it. There are probably even more people that get it, treat it, and never report it.
Do you still live in that same area?
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chemist
Posts: 1
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October 11, 2008, 05:44:17 PM |
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There is a lot of great information in this post. However, I wanted to set the record straight about boric acid toxicity. I am a chemist by training and so I have some experience interpreting MSDS and toxicity data.
Boric acid is about as toxic as sodium chloride - table salt! If you look at the MSDS of NaCl you will find that it has similar warnings, a similar LD50, and similar high-dose chronic effects. The only difference is the testicular atrophy seen in dogs at high chronic doses. In dogs this was seen at ~32mg/kg, which translates to several grams per day for humans. If you carefully spread the boric acid with a N95 dust mask (available at drug stores) and then work it into carpet and vacuum >24 h later, you will have minimal exposure and in all likelihood, no health issues related to the boric acid. Basically, it does have some toxicity associated with it, but it is similar to other chemicals that we all use and eat. For instance, water is toxic at high doses and there are several documented cases of people dying after drinking too much of it.
DE on the other hand can be extremely hazardous if it is inhaled chronically. As you all know, DE is essentially finely ground silica (this is why it works for flea control!), but those particles can get lodged in your lungs. Over time they build up and can cause lung cancer. Now, this is MUCH more likely to happen in an industrial setting where exposure is high, but if you rub it all over your carpets and bedding, you create small plumes of it whenever you move. These airborne particles can then be inhaled.
The point I'm making is that DE is a great solution, but is not without risks. I would say that the same is true for boric acid. In either case, a dust mask should be used for application and care should be taken to clean up excess powder. Also, just because something has a scary sounding MSDS does not make it dangerous. I hope everyone who reads this goes and reads the MSDS of table salt (sodium chloride), or DE for that matter.
Cheers,
Chemist
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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October 12, 2008, 10:01:47 PM |
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Chemist,
Granted, the borates have a low toxicity, slightly worse than table salt .... and, I wouldn't be putting table salt all over the house willy nilly either.
Granted, chronic exposure to DE would be bad: bot not as bad as chronic exposure to borate powder. Nor as bad as chronic exposure to, say, vacuum cleaner dust (of course, this depends on what is in that dust).
I would go so far as to say that I actually own a box of borax, and I do use it (sparingly) for some things.
So, I guess this is me, setting the record straight on you setting the record straight.
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Renee
Posts: 1
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October 25, 2008, 11:07:56 PM |
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What a great article this is! We had a pest control company come into our home twice to spray - Ultracide - something I could have purchased online myself at a much cheaper rate, and we're still itching. I'm neurotic enough to "daily" vacuum, launder bedding and clothes, bathe twice in lavender-mineral soap, and wash non-carpeted floors...did I say "daily"?
I love the attitude behind this article, but most of all, I love the data! I'll keep you posted on our battle once I buy food grade DE. Gotta go, got an itch.
Renee
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SueinWA
Posts: 313
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October 26, 2008, 11:44:26 AM |
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A new thought: If you are cleaning well, applying
Diatomaceous Earth and are still itching, you might have your doctor check you for scabies.
From an online article:
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* « Previous
* 1
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* Next »
* Scabies Index
* Glossary
Scabies (cont.)
In this Article
* What is scabies?
* How do you get scabies?
* Can you catch scabies from a dog or cat?
* What does scabies look like? What are the signs and symptoms of scabies?
* What does scabies feel like?
* What is the treatment for a scabies infestation?
* Are cases of scabies often misdiagnosed?
* In what special situations can scabies be more easily spread?
* Bad Bugs - Slideshow View Bad Bugs Slideshow
* Patient Discussions: Scabies - Effective Treatments
* Scabies Glossary
* Scabies Index
What does scabies look like? What are the signs and symptoms of scabies?
Scabies produces small red bumps and blisters and affects specific areas of the body. Scabies may involve the webs between the fingers, the wrists and the backs of the elbows, the knees, around the waist and umbilicus, the axillary folds, the areas around the nipples, the sides and backs of the feet, the genital area, and the buttocks. The bumps (medically termed papules) may contain blood crusts. It is helpful to know that not every bump is a bug. In most cases of scabies affecting otherwise healthy adults, there are no more than 10 or 15 live mites even if there are hundreds of bumps and pimples.
Textbook descriptions of scabies always mention "burrows" or "tunnels." These are tiny threadlike projections, ranging from 2 mm-15 mm long, that appear as thin gray, brown, or red lines in affected areas. The burrows can be very difficult to see. Often mistaken for burrows are linear scratch marks that are large and dramatic and appear in people with any itchy condition. Scratching actually destroys burrows.
What does scabies feel like?
"Itching is the most common symptom of scabies. The itch of scabies is insidious and relentless. The itch is usually worse at night. For the first weeks, the itch is subtle. It then gradually becomes more intense until, after a month or two, sleep becomes almost impossible."
For info online google 'human scabies" as there is an animal version.
Sue
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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October 27, 2008, 08:52:34 PM |
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I just had a FANTASTIC idea! .... I should probably mash this into the article RIGHT AWAY!!
I have all of this information rattling around in my head about what temperature and what relative humidity kills fleas. And now I have three cases where people simply turn their thermostat up to full blast, leave for a day, come home and there are no more fleas. And I have tried it myself TWICE and failed.
And now I think I know why.
It has to do with the dewpoint, temperature and relative humidity (RH).
In both cases where I tried to do this, I think it was about 65 degrees and raining outside. And now, in hindsight, I see why that would not work.
If it is 65 and raining, that means that the dewpoint has to be 65 or higher. In other words, at 65 degrees, RH is 100%. If I raise the temperature in the house to, say, 85, that will make the inside RH about 50%. That will make the fleas kinda miserable, but not dead.
Today, my weather forecast says I have a dewpoint of 37. If I were to try the same experiment today, that would make the RH inside 18% - it would utterly kill all fleas in a very short time.
Time to experiment!
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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November 03, 2008, 10:36:36 AM |
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Well, the first thing one needs is a place that has fleas. While I am currently flea free, I do know somebody that has a few fleas in her home.
This was tried once last week. I bought a relative humidity / thermometer combo. The temp got up to about 87 but the RH only got down to 47% (or so). Not low enough. I suspect that it involved showers and cooking that morning. I think that if the air has been aired out really well first, it might work.
Since then it has been raining to beat the band. Gotta wait.
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