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ants and aphids | (Read 16626 times) |
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Chris
Posts: 3
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March 17, 2008, 10:51:14 AM |
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I have a Tulip tree that the aphids, and therefore the ants, LOVE! A couple years ago a landscaper turned me on to a product that you apply around the trunk of the tree. It's kind of like a thick vaseline and acts like a moat for the ants heading to the "butt juice bar." I think it was called "stickyfoot"(?) I found it at my local home store without any problem. It didn't kill the ants, but at least they didn't spend all day drinking...which you know will only lead to dancing!!!
For the aphids, I hired a bag of lady bugs.
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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March 17, 2008, 02:56:21 PM |
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Any chance you know of a link?
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Chris
Posts: 3
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March 18, 2008, 11:13:27 AM |
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It's actually called "TangleFoot" not stickyfoot. http://www.tanglefoot.com/products/barrier.htm.
It claims to have no chemicals/pesticides. The company is all about "Adhesive Pest Management" (insert tapeworm joke here).
After I posted, I realized I described it like as being like "vaseline"...which may mean it's petroleum based and therefore may not be something you'd recommend on this site. Forgive me, I'm a novice.
The tree I use this one really only has the ant problem, so I haven't found a lot of other bugs (good or bad) trapped in it.
For the "Who Knew?" file: "During the 1880's, Grand Rapids, Michigan became the world center for flypaper manufacturing..."
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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March 18, 2008, 11:33:58 AM |
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The concept sounds great, but I do worry about the ingredients of the product.
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Cyndi
Posts: 9
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August 17, 2008, 12:13:33 PM |
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Hey Paul,
Try Grits for the ants. We didn't put it out this year (and we should have for our 2 cherry, 2 peach, 2 plum, 2 pear and 2 apple trees), but in the past we have used it up around the house for the outdoor ants. This will have to be an experiment for the both of us next year during the fruit growing season.
The ants pick up the grits and take it back home to their nests (it was neat seeing these ants carrying grits) to feed everyone. The process: They eat the grits, the grits then expand in them and cause them to (for wont of a better word) explode. Last year when we put it out in the yard we definitely noticed a decrease in all the small ant hills near the house. A thing of generic grits is under $2. Just keep sprinkling some out every few days or once a week.
I'm going to be printing up the suggestions from others and your article to show my husband. Because of the ants we never seem to get any cherries, and the rest of the fruits definitely have the black holes from insects in them. We even had one peach tree this year where the leaves were all curled in and yellow with some weird looking stuff on them (I'm assuming this was from aphids by what was said in your article) and it didn't even bear any fruit. 
Besides fencing (which we haven't done) is there any way to keep deer away from the trees? Also, any thoughts and suggestions about keeping lady bugs out of your house? We've had a pretty cool summer for a change this year and didn't have lady bugs in the house, but normally we get swarmed with them every summer and I'm tired of having to vacuum them up every day  .
Cyndi (the cat shelter/flea control question lady 
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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August 21, 2008, 07:15:07 AM |
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Grits: I've heard of this trick and I've heard it works great. The problem is that I have never seen a grit that I know of!  It must be a southern thing!
As for bugs in your cherries: this problem is usually rooted in fruit on the ground from last year. If you can make sure that ALL of the fruit is cleaned up this year, you will probably have far less fruit trouble next year.
For the peach trees - any chance we can get a picture? I suspect "peach tree leaf curl." A fungus.
Deer: A livestock guardian dog is the best. I also like a six foot tall fence around each tree with three steel fence posts with about a foot between the tree and the fence. But is this the kind of fence you don't like?
Lady bugs out of the house: how are they getting in?
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Cyndi
Posts: 9
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August 22, 2008, 08:26:45 AM |
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Well I'm in the midwest, Indiana (even though I'm from the South originally), and we have grits in the stores here. If you want to try some for an experiment on a relatively small scale (grits for 80 acres I think you said is a bit much) let me know and I can pick some up for you and send them to you. Like I said, it's between $1 and $2 a container. I know my e-mail address is on file with your site so you can contact me through that.
I'll try and get a picture of the leaves of the one tree. How do I send it to you? It's supposed to be storming all day so I probably won't get the picture until tomorrow after work.
Our trees aren't really producing that much in the way of cherries. One of the main big cherry trees didn't make it where we planted it, and then we have another big cherry and one 12" high which is a grafted tree of two different types. Believe it or not the graft is the one we get the most cherries from. I'm thinking that since it is a graft and so small that we aren't getting the cross pollination for the other big tree. I will check the ground to see if there are any remains and get them cleaned up and see if that helps.
As for how the lady bugs are getting in? We have no idea, and we aren't the only ones with this problem.
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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August 22, 2008, 10:32:34 AM |
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Post picttures right into this thread. When you are saying something, there's a link under the edit field that says "Additional Options". Just attach your image.
Lady bugs: I've never had this problem. Do they concentrate some where?
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Cyndi
Posts: 9
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August 22, 2008, 05:34:47 PM |
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I was wrong when I said curled leaves. The leaves were turning yellow and had like "blisters" on them. Since you can only do two attachments I will send 3 posts with two pics each.
Oh and the lady bugs like the ceilings of the living room and kitchen. Mostly the kitchen.
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Cyndi
Posts: 9
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August 22, 2008, 05:37:13 PM |
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Here are two more pics. Do you have any idea what the problem is? We've had the tree for about 5-6 years now and, except for that tallest branch on the right, I'm a little taller then the tree and I'm just a little over 5'4.
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Cyndi
Posts: 9
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August 22, 2008, 05:39:48 PM |
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I think those four pics show pretty much what I'm talking about so I'm not going to send the other two unless you want them. One is a really good closeup of one of the leaves.
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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August 22, 2008, 06:48:56 PM |
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Peach leaf curl.
I've never had to deal with it myself, so I'm afraid I'm of very little help. But I did a google search for it and came up with lots of pictures that matched yours.
I know that Dave Boehnlein was once telling me a bit about it. I'll send him an email and we'll see if he won't mind popping in.
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Cyndi
Posts: 9
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August 23, 2008, 10:23:26 AM |
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Thanks Paul. I hope David will be willing to pop in with some ideas and suggestions. Since I now know what to look for I'll also do a google search and see if there are any suggestions out there. This is the first year we've gotten some full sized peaches on the other tree, and I don't want to loose this one which in turn will stop the other one from producing.
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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August 23, 2008, 10:35:52 AM |
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I'm pretty sure it is a type of fungus. My general approach to dealing with fungal stuff in trees is to help the tree to be uber healthy. If the tree is super healthy, it can generally fight the fungus issues without any other help.
I like to have a lot of organic hay or straw as mulch on the tree. I might even spray the leaves with some water and alaska fish fertilizer in the morning - but only if the leaves are not already a dark green. Good pruning in the winter helps a lot too.
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dirtworks
Posts: 65
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August 23, 2008, 01:36:09 PM |
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It looks like what you have there is Peach Leaf curl. I've been wrong before so, keep digging. It's a fungus that emerges from the bark that over winters. In the event that I am correct, do these things.
This year you'll want to pick off all the fruit, if any so the tree won't waste energy trying to make fruit when it's under stress.
You can treat the tree now with K+Neem. Apply in the morning or evening. Never in full sun.
Don't peal off the infected leaves unless you're convinced they are totally dead. What green space is left is necessary for the tree to make sugar and survive right now.
Fertilize the tree with organic fertilizer. At the risk of controversy, don't use Alaska Fish fertilizer. It's got too much water soluble nitrogen in it and it's preserved with trace amounts of chlorine. Both could stress out the tree.
Use a milder form of organic fertilizer with less water soluble nitrogen and kelp as one of the ingredients.
Add some Mycorrhizae to the soil around the drip line of the tree.
Next year, before the buds break, spray the bark of the tree with K+Neem and/or some pre-emergent oil to retard and kill off the emergent fungus that may have wintered over.
This is good practice for almost any fruit tree. Consult with your local extension service about spray times and emergent cycles in your area.
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permaculture.dave
Posts: 113
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August 23, 2008, 05:33:27 PM |
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Cyndi,
What you've sent pictures of is Peach Leaf Curl for sure. It is fungal. It tends to be a problem in places with cool, wet springs (like here in the Pacific Northwest). In fact, it is so bad where we are that we only know of one variety that is curl resistant enough to produce regular crops of peaches - the Frost Peach.
We manage peach leaf curl by removing any infected leaves and burning them as soon as they show the blistering. Since this usually occurs here in the spring the tree will actually put out another round of leaves to replace the ones removed. This second flush of leaves typically won't suffer from curl since the season will be warmer and drier by that time (although in the odd year it is a persistent problem). We have also had positive effects on some of the less curl resistant varieties using aerobic compost tea sprays weekly.
Did you have a cool, wet spring in Indiana this year? I suspect curl isn't typically a major problem in Indiana. It seems to me that you might not see this problem repeat itself in a year with a warmer spring. I haven't gone through all the steps dirtworks mentioned, but it couldn't hurt. If the tree seems to suffer from peach leaf curl every year, I would eventually think about replacing it with a curl resistant variety that is known to do well in your neck of the woods.
For the record, from your pics it doesn't look like too bad of a case. Some of the varieties we've experimented with here (supposedly curl-resistant varieties) have actually been completely covered with blistered leaves year after year until finally the tree succumbs. I suspect your tree would probably do fine in the long run even if you did nothing. We've also noticed that some trees that suffer from curl when young outgrow it when they reach full size.
Good luck!
Dave
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Cyndi
Posts: 9
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September 03, 2008, 10:41:53 AM |
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Thanks Paul, John and David for all the advice on the peach tree. We definitely DID have a cool wet spring this year with (alot of 40's and 50's degree days and ALOT of rain). Usually once spring hits we have our normal amount of rain (which wasn't near what we had this year), and usually upper 60's to low 80's depending on how far into spring we are.
Thanks again,
Cyndi
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Alatheia
Posts: 1
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September 13, 2008, 04:19:14 PM |
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 Oh my. This has been most fun! I just read each of your links and enjoyed them all very much! You're hilarious! Rock on!
Someday I hope to have a farm resplendent with goats, chickens, a burro, horses, and some cats. Maybe a dog. Alas, for now I must make do with my six children.
You rule!
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SueinWA
Posts: 313
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October 07, 2008, 07:23:39 PM |
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I read your war with the ants on your apple trees, which sounded like my war with the thatch ants here. My opinion: if the DE doesn't seem to be working, put it on thicker!
I tried everything I could think of on those ant nests (over a foot tall): boiling water, setting the nest on fire, boric acid in sugar water, a gallon of white vinegar. I sicced the chickens on them. They looked at them and said, "Blech! We want termites. These things taste like vinegar. We don't like vinegar. Got any earwigs?"
That was about the time I found the 50# bag of Diatomaceous Earth at a farm store (the only place that had it in the county). CODEX FOOD GRADE.
YAHOO!!!
I took two cups out and sprinkled it over the large ant nest. The next morning, there were ants acting like Business As Usual. So I got a 3-gallon bucket and filled it up and covered that damned hill until the whole thing was about half an inch deep in DE, with a solid white apron of it around the base of the nest. If it didn't kill them via the usual means, I was going to DROWN those suckers in it!
The next day, the ants were gone. Some were still around the nest with their little feet in the air and Xs over their eyes.
People say DE works on snails and slugs a little differently than on beetle bugs. They say that the slugs pick up the DE and then they keep producing their slime to get rid of it, until they dehydrate themselves to death. It sounds okay to me until I hear different.
About that peach leaf curl... I'm just tossing this out there, okay? I don't know if it's really true, but it SEEMED to work...
I had lilacs with spots and brown patches on the leaves. So did a friend of mine. At the home of another friend, I noticed her lilacs were green and healthy, and I told her about mine. She said hers used to do that, then she read that lilacs like more alkaline soil than she has naturally, so every Fall she started sprinkling a handful of dolomite lime around bases of her lilacs and they had looked good ever since.
So I went home and sprinkled lime around my lilacs sitting in their 5.5-5.8 pH soil, even though it was late spring. And I told my other friend and she did the same. The following year, they looked a LOT better. The next year, they were perfect. And they've been perfect ever since.
My friend, elated with the success with her lilacs, looked at her sad spotty peach trees. She looked up the preferred pH of peach trees, and discovered that they liked close to the same pH as lilacs, so..... she sprinkled about a cup of dolomite lime around her worst peach tree. And the next year it looked a lot better.
I don't know if raising the pH did it, or the added calcium or magnesium (our soil is normally low in both), or if it was coincidence, dumb luck or she held her mouth right when she put it down. Since then, the peach tree looks fine and actually has peaches.
Like I said, I'm just tossing this out there in case anyone wanted to try it.
Sue
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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October 08, 2008, 12:40:51 PM |
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Yes! Heaps of DE wins again! The key is to not be stingy! After all, the stuff is freaky cheap.
As for the pH on the trees: yes, that can make a huge difference!
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dirtworks
Posts: 65
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October 09, 2008, 06:28:21 AM |
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DE works great on ants. If the problem comes up again you can work a little faster with D-20. That's DE with pyrethrine. you can mix it with water and dish soap and pour it down the holes. This makes it flow into the underground cells and stick to the critters so they can't get it off. Ants are very clean animals and they know how to sweep out the barn.
Doing it this way with this product can kill the eggs and larvae too. Sometimes it can seem as if the ants are all gone and a few days later they're back. That can be the eggs hatching out and making new ones. they can't do this if the nest is contaminated and sticky inside.
Glad the lilacs and peaches turned out good.
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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October 09, 2008, 03:03:14 PM |
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I think I'm going to recommend against anything with pyrethrine.
John,
How do you feel about eating pyrethrine?
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dirtworks
Posts: 65
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October 09, 2008, 04:27:23 PM |
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I'm around D-20 everyday and it bothers me not at all. I use it on my dogs and sometimes the couch when the fleas decide to make a home there and if you understand the formula that Permaguard uses in their D-20 instead of freaking out just because there's a "chemical" involved like a lot of uninformed reactionist in the green movement do you would think differently. Science and facts are wonderful things. They destroy the myth.
D-20 contains .2% Pyrethrins, a vegetable, digestible extract made from Chrysanthemum flowers. It is one of the oldest, natural insecticides known to man. Evidence of it's use dates back to the Egyptians. Pyrethrum is deadly to insects and other cold blooded life forms. It is known for its fast knock down action but, its value is reduced by the fact that it evaporates in minutes. It works well in Permaguard formulas because it is time released by the dry powder of Diatomaceous Earth.
The next ingredient in D-20 is Piperonyl Butoxide 1%. It comes from the Sassafras plant. It is an effective insecticide in its own right, and helps magnify the effect of the Pyrethrum. Without it, ten times the amount of Pyrethrine might be needed to do the same job. In the end, the pyrethrine evaporates from the D-20 too and you're left with the DE only.
In this form it is no more harmful than neem oil or other "natural insecticides". Neem oil is a neurotoxin to insects. It contains azadirachtin. Should we be afraid of that too? Karanja oil is the same idea. Should we avoid Indian medicine that dates back thousands of years and is talked about in Ayurvadic medicine because it contains nerve paraylizing chemicals? Of course not.
Burnout weed and grass killer can take the skin off your hands if you don't wear gloves when using it and it stings when you get it in your eyes but it's made from concentrated acetic acid and clove oil. Is that something to recommend against? It's just not a good idea to go into the spice cabinet and down a handful of cloves and wash it down with vinegar! All natural but if that combination doesn't kill you you'll wish it did! AAAAH!!
Fossil shell flour in it's purest from contains .5% crystaline silica, known to cause silicosis. Is that to be feared as well. no. It's about the relative amount and your exposure to it. If some one were to be around it everyday they should wear a dust mask and if it's extreme exposure a gas mask. This doesn't mean the stuff is a deadly toxin. People who work in wood shops wear good masks, not because wood dust is deadly per se but because they're receiving a heavy dose everyday and wood dust contains carcinogens along with the simple fact that it's just a bad idea to breath in dust all the time no matter what it's made of. My friends dog died of lung cancer from hanging around his cedar furniture shop where they milled lumber everyday.
In all things, good practice and prudent wise use of the product you buy or make is what's required for successful outcomes. Fear and lack of understanding from which it comes is the enemy of progress and positive change and an kind in general. Even organic gardeners and people interested in natural living need science and trust in solid information garnered from centuries of hard work by those who came before us. Let's not get out on the fringes and invent new myths and fears to replace the old ones we're ditching as we move into the new century.
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1343
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October 10, 2008, 01:00:43 PM |
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For a lot of those things, my response is: be worried, or cautious, or concerned - a lot of it would be to avoid it if you can, and you probably can.
I'm going to continue to recommend food grade DE over anything with pyrethrins or borates in it. It is possible, even probable, that I'm an ignorant doofus. And, at the same time, I have studied the MSDS for both pyrethrins and borates. I choose to steer clear.
Perhaps my approach is something like IPM taken a few orders of magnitude in the organic direction. So much so that there are even some things that are approved for use in organic stuff and I still avoid it.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethrine : "Pyrethrins are harmful to fish, birds, and mammals, including humans. In humans, pyrethrin irritates the eyes, skin, and respiratory systems, and it may cause other harmful effects. One study suggested a link between maternal pyrethrin use and autism in children."
I think that as the years pass we will both learn more about our difference of opinion on this matter.
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SueinWA
Posts: 313
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October 13, 2008, 10:29:12 AM |
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The problem with knowledge is that we tend to think that what we know now is all that CAN be known about a substance, and that is not true.
This moment in time is like water flowing in a river, and we can hit submerged rocks and logs at any time.
Other false senses of security are provided by various government agencies that have so many individual and group agendas that it would probably be impossible to list them all. Information and opinions put out by the USDA and the FDA are often 'contaminated'.
All we can do is investigate as best we can, and be aware that new info can pop up at any time, from any source, and keep an open mind that information that IS is not necessarily what will always BE.
Sue
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