<![CDATA[permies: Latest posts for the topic "greenhouse suck factor"]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/t/122/greenhouses/greenhouse-suck-factor JForum - http://www.jforum.net greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is an excellent idea for about 18% of the greenhouses that exist.  The weird thing is that so many greenhouses strike me as stupid.

Last year I was asked for my advice on a greenhouse location.  These people had dreams of eating veggies in the winter.  I pointed out that the trees to the south were conifers that were so dense that their greenhouse would be in the shade all winter.  They labeled me a "negative nelly" and built their precious greenhouse.  On a bright sunny day in november at about 10:30 in the morning I pointed out how their greenhouse was not only in the shade, but it would be lucky to get 15% of the available direct sunlight throughout the day.  And it would only be worse for the next two months. 

A similar thing a few years back.  With similar outcome. 

I suspect that half of all greenhouses built are built in the winter shade.    And the days are already so short then - blocking even half of the light is gonna make for a really lame crop.

-----

Another thing about greenhouses is that you have split yourself away from the eco system.  By having a greenhouse at all, you are filling in the position of mother nature.  Everything that mother nature does to keep things in balance, you now have to do.  So when fungus or bugs or anything gets out of hand, it is now your job to deal with it.

----

I guess I felt the need to start this thread because everybody knows the upsides (food in winter) but very few people appear to be aware of the downsides.  Deep understanding of the downsides helps to mitigate them or at least decide to not put a lot of money and effort into something that, in the end, won't be worth it.

Just because I may be a negative nelly doesn't mean that these issues are less true. 

Anybody else have greenhouse issues that they would like to warn future greenhouse builders about?




]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/13964 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/13964 Re: greenhouse suck factor
You'd think a couple plastic sheets held closed with bi-metal strips would be a simple solution...]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/13973 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/13973 Re: greenhouse suck factor
i have automatic vents and also leave the door open unless it is going to be below freezing outside..then i also light some candles to keep the ambient temp above freezing well into the cooler night weather.

i have a drip system that i turn on once a week for a deep watering of the soil..

i don't have bug infestations other than the stupid bald face hornet nest we had to remove..but we have enough good bugs in there to pollinate..

i'll be picking tomatos until mid November..likely..and peppers about that long as well..and then we'll let it go fallow until about March so about 4 mo..

we have a wood boielr and probably could hook up a heat exchanger or someothing to the greenhouse.when we have time to mess with it..but are busy with other things right now.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/13988 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/13988 Re: greenhouse suck factor alot work I am sure. although they are isolated from nature and that can be a negative it can also be a postive. natural fluxuations in weather, disease and insects can be mitigated easier. nothing you can do if it rains too much or some blight or insect decides to take over your garden.I would like one for starting plants and overwintering some tropicals and some vegies. If I lived farther north I would consider it a neccessity. I am too accustomed to a long growing season.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/13999 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/13999 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse would be enough for me. I would NEED my own, personal, human sized terrarium! Complete with skylights, a waterfall, indoor pool and greenhouse area for overwintering tropical plants, starting seeds, etc.

Even if all that were feasible, I'd still need a LOT of convincing (and perhaps medication :roll to get me to live in a cold climate...again. I would have to live like a tropical gecko in my terrarium! 

Anyhoo, I can see where a greenhouse would be very useful in colder climates. Just because of the climate control ability. It would be very frustrating for me to constantly lose heat loving plants to freak cold weather blasts.

I've worked for a plant nursery with a few greenhouses in Okla. The greenhouses were very useful in the spring and fall. Was very helpful, protecting seedlings from hailstorms,  drenching rains and of course drastic temperature changes. In the summertime, even with shadecloth & giant fans, they were still pretty hot, especially during days of 100+ temps.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14002 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14002 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I do want to point out that people that put them in stupid places shouldn't be counted as a negative for greenhouses. thats a negative for people.


I guess my mission is to get a healthy list of greenhouse issues going.  And with a lot of issues we can then work on how to mitigate those issues. 

I think the point about greenhouses overheating is a good one.

And I think the point about attempting to mitigate that based on human discipline is an even better point. 




]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14021 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14021 Re: greenhouse suck factor
It would be nice if there were something cheap and durable with a low environmental impact, preferrably locally sourced.

All that I've heard of working is plate glass, fiberglass, LDPE sheet, and bubble wrap.  And the last two degrade over a few seasons.  I guess tempered glass might be an option if you had unlimited access to a junkyard...]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14027 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14027 Re: greenhouse suck factor alot there? I have always liked the idea of portable ones that can be put right over your garden spot and removed as needed. maybe have a shade cloth cover so it can do double duty and help me grow some of the things  that get burned up in the heat, like lettuce and carrots.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14033 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14033 Re: greenhouse suck factor
i've moved it a couple of times..and like where i have it now best..it is about 10' from my kitchen door/porch and has an herb garden around it...drip irrigation makes it very easy to water and keep water off of the plants..just on their roots..

my tomatoes are perfect and blemish free in the greenhouse..not so much outside of the greenhouse..no blight..no blossom end rot..etc..my peppers actually bear in the greenhouse..in Michigan peppers are difficult to get to bear in our cold weather..(we were in the 40's overnight most every day this week and our highs for this weekend will be in the 50's with cold rain)]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14034 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14034 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse with no ends.  The idea appears to be to eliminate rainwater from hitting the leaves of the plants.  I suspect it does make things a bit warmer too.  By eliminating the moisture and watering only the soil (not the leaves) I would guess that it almost eliminates any issues with blight.  And, at the same time, without any ends on the greenhouse, it is not wholly removed from the eco system.



]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14045 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14045 Re: greenhouse suck factor permaculture mindset.
In my region you could not grow many things, tomatoes peppers, squash without some type of protection. You can count on a few frosts in the evenings by the first week in August. Freezing in the evening and 90's in the daytime.
I have been dancing like a crazy monkey this year because I have been able to grow and harvest watermelons in my climate. I couldn't have done it without a greenhouse.
Unfortunately do it once and do it right just doesn't seem to work for me and my permaculture pursuits, but I am a fast learner and am having many successes as I play and learn.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14048 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14048 Re: greenhouse suck factor
lapinerobert wrote:
do it once and do it right


There are people and institutions that work like that, and there are tasks that require such a mindset, but I'm too fond of exploration to take that as my guiding philosophy.  Most of the important things I do, I don't even know what "right" would look like until the second or third time I've done that particular thing, in that particular context.

If you'd like an antidote to that kind of thinking, you might read some of Paul Graham's essays.  He talks a lot about the nature of work, mostly computer programming but partly fine art, and to some extent generalized to innovative work of any sort.

In contrast to your quote above, he says:

find (a) simple solutions (b) to overlooked problems (c) that actually need to be solved, and (d) deliver them as informally as possible, (e) starting with a very crude version 1, then (f) iterating rapidly...if you release a crude version 1 then iterate, your solution can benefit from the imagination of nature, which, as Feynman pointed out, is more powerful than your own.


Which is much more my style.

Source:

http://www.paulgraham.com/newthings.html ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14053 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14053 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse, not for raising food year-round, but for starting seedlings in the spring, and for protecting tomatoes, etc., from early frosts in the fall (actually, in the high desert, we can get frost in any month of the year, and in fact had our first frost of the summer last night).  If someday I move to the Alaska Peninsula, as I hope to do eventually, I'll want a greenhouse, or I won't be able to grow tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, etc., at all.  Of course, I could just give them up and grow what does do well there (any cool-season crop), but since the greenhouse would be attached to the house, it would have several other functions, including giving us a place to enjoy the sun out of the wind on cool days.  That's important in a climate where you are pretty much house-bound by the weather a lot of the time.

Kathleen]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14055 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14055 Re: greenhouse suck factor tomatoes and peppers in a greenhouse..this would be their last week..but we'll still have tomatos..in our greenhouse..for another couple of months..so i'm glad i have it..there are beautiful dozens and dozens and dozens of tomatoes and peppers nearly ripe on the plants right now..no greenhouse..tomorrow they would be mush]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14079 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14079 Re: greenhouse suck factor tomatoes in missoula.  A 90 day growing season which was dramatically extended by the use of raised beds. 

Granted, greenhouses can extend much further - even indefinitely with heat.  And .... I think a lot of people make the leap into building greenhouses without a full understanding of the issues.  And that explains why you can visit so many farms that have greenhouses that are not being used.

So:  keeping on course with trying to come up with potential issues of greenhouses ....

Another concern I've heard of ... and maybe it was brought up in these forums ....  is the idea that glass or plastic or anything you use to let light through, does not let ALL of the light through.  Apparently, any of these will block (partially or fully) some of the spectrum.  And the plants end up being lessor for it. 

Another interesting perspective on greenhouses comes from mike oehler's book on greenhouses.  The general idea is to reduce the air:glass ratio ... and to rely more on thermal mass to smooth out the bumps in the road.    Through his techniques, he has been able to grow tomatoes into december in north idaho with no heat!

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14095 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14095 Re: greenhouse suck factor
paul wheaton wrote:
I had mountains of tomatoes in missoula. A 90 day growing season which was dramatically extended by the use of raised beds.


An interesting article on extend the growing season of the pre-Columbian Andes:

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cerickso/articles/Exped.pdf

I guess raised beds near water are a good way to grow potatoes in the mountains...now where have I heard that before?  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14100 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14100 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I think the biggest issue is to be very clear about what your goals are for the greenhouse. Extending your tomato season is one thing, but if you want to keep tomatoes growing and fully productive in February in, say, Spokane, you're going to have to supply some inputs, and if you want to do it in Seattle, you'll have to supply some different inputs. Once size most definitely doesn't fit all.

One thing that I puzzle over, as my partner and I talk about the greenhouse we intend to build, is how to determine optimum size. Too small, and the temperature swings are too wild - too large, and we're spending more on it than is necessary. I'd like to try growing some of the hardier citrus, and that means a heating system. It gets down into the single digits here. We are interested in the subsoil heating systems, but I don't have any actual experience with them.

I'm not as worried about the issue of being cut off from the environment. To me, that is one of the purposes of a greenhouse. Otherwise, a greenhouse is not necessary. You could build solar pods (http://www.chelseagreen.com/authors/leandre_poisson/) which would be much cheaper, and grow most of the usual garden suspects just as well as in a greenhouse. Eliot Coleman makes a living from his greenhouses, and I think his economic analysis is very instructive, even if your purpose is not to make money. If you are fine with subsidizing your greenhouse grown plants with money/energy from elsewhere, there's not a thing wrong with that, as long as it is a measured decision to do so.

There's the guy in Colorado who is growing bananas at 7000 feet, but he gets a lot more winter sun than we do...The permutations are really endless.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14104 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14104 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse I've seen is a greenhouse/sunroom attached to a house.  The greehouse was cobbled together from salvaged windows, and had a dirt floor with gravel. There was a big door between the house and greenhouse that could be left open, and the hosue was heated with a wood stove (about 12 feet from this door), and the main floor had a cement floor that held the woodstove heat very nicely--there were cement bricks stacked around the stove which conducted the heat down to the floor more.

THe greenhouse was attached to the east side of the house)it may be more SE), and the guys grew tomatos and bell peppers in there--which is about all he cares to grow.  I'd say the GH is about 12 x 20'? The GH extends his harvest into December, and he overwinters some plants some years. He may have grow lamps(I visit his house every year on an art tour, I'll have to peek and see--the PNW is notorious for lack of sun)

This is in the Coast Range of Oregon, at about 1000'. So I'd say his set up is a success adn I would like to do something like it someday.  The house is small, and the GH is a nice place to sit as well(sunroom), and I think letting it get open to the house heat from the woodstove helps.

He grows the plants in 5-gallon buckets or half barrels in the GH.

I really like the idea of having a greenhouse/sunroom kind of thing attached to the house. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14108 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14108 Re: greenhouse suck factor
we put in a wood boiler nearly a year ago..and one day we probably will run some of the hot water through our greenhouse so we can keep it heated in the wintertime..but right now we just have been too busy with other things..

all it will cost us is the fastening parts as we already have the pex available to do the access from the wood boiler to the greenhouse and have a deck that the insulated pex can run under to just a few feet from the greenhouse from the boiler..but we just haven't had the time with all our other projects to think about it this year..i'm sure one year in the future we will have a cozy wood boiler heated greenhouse with heat for free..as we already use the boiler for 3 buildings..and running to that little greenhouse will not remove enough heat to make any difference to the rest of our heat bill.

in the meantime..i can keep the greenhouse producing tenders for 8 to 9 months..so i'm quite happy with that..as we have a 90 day growing season in our area of Michigan (au sauble river valley)]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14138 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14138 Re: greenhouse suck factor

just like everything there are pros and cons to different strategies and methods and each person must decide what fits their situation, goals and desires and limitations. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14183 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14183 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse in some areas of the country in the summertime..we don't have to here as our summers range from 50's to 70's for most highs..we may get a couple weeks of 80's maybe a few days of 90's and we actually had one day in triple digits this year.

but i'm sure there are areas that do get hot enough to require shade to their greenhouses]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14187 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14187 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse the first year I had it up. Dismal results during that first summer, but an exceptional fall crop of hydroponic greens.
  A work in progress. I have installed photovoltaic powered fans, since I am absent during the hottest part of the day.  I have learned when it is time to put up the shade cloths and when to take them down.
Just as I learn what plants are viable in even different areas of my property  there are diferent micro climates within the greenhouse. I am learning what works and doesn't in my greenhouses. I would love to live in an area that  a greenhouse isn't required but it is a necessity in my neck of the woods. Now let's talk about deer and elk suck factor, the decimated my swiss chard last night but didn't get to the any plants within the greenhouse. I love my greenhouse.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14193 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14193 Re: greenhouse suck factor
so i guess maybe i really DO need to cage my corn next time..or just forget about growing it]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14207 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14207 two greenhouse veteran- don't see their role in the south US
I moved on to a TX zone 8a heat zone 9b farmette which had a SW facing GH attached to a shed.  The only thing that GH ever did for me was keep safe some poultry on occasion and once a rescued wild Inca dove.  Even in winter and even after I got a mechanical vent the GH was at times way too hot for plants.  In summer it was of course a dry sauna.  The prior folks used it to dry their herbs, unsure if they ever used it successfully for plants.  All in all GH fail, and now I am in AL 8a/9a I will consider lights (ie cold frames) in winter, use the pool to buffer the cool for some plants, and my only 'GH' is my E facing sunroom in the house for a few potted citrus and tropicals through the winter (out all summer).  And I use my seldom driven van, parked in the sun for this purpose, as my food dryer.

I don't know what would make a GH work in the South other than thermostatically controlled huge fans and heaters for precise commercial work.

We sojourned in cold zone 8 heat zone 3/4 southern England and there I put a GH lean to over our stone patio with sldiing double doors into it from the house, a single door to the outside, S facing.  This worked very well to let me crop cukes toms peppers, which would not have cropped most summers there, for several months.  I did not except on the few coldest nights when cropping heat it with house air- too expensive- but on a few sunny winter days I heated the house with the GH.  There for the cost of the GH I had some of the American crops I so missed and could jhave done more with the GH had I wished.  Had the GH been big enough for maize my gardening there would have been perfect.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14213 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14213 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse I might want to put it in the shade of a deciduous tree so that it could be shaded in the summer and get sun in the winter. being able to start my own seedlings with real sunlight and protect them from bunnies would be nice even if it was only in the spring.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14240 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14240 Re: greenhouse suck factor
it is great for a air space that prewarms the air between the inside and outside so that we don't loose our warm house air to the outside in the wintertime..so that is wonderful..and it does make a cozy place to sit on a sunny winter day..which i totally love..it can get to 80 out there when it is 30 outside if the sun is hot enough.

generally however, it runs about 10 to 20 degrees warmer in the porch than the outside air.

we have a glassed in rear , north facing porch as well..basically it is to kieep a dry space with an air stop in the winter and a shady spot in the summer, it tends to be about 10 degrees cooler in the summer than outside air..it gets very little sun..and it is about 250 square feet under roof and glassed in.

i would also like to hgave a simliar thing out our east deck..but haven't ventured into that territory yet.

the greenhouse we have is only 6 x8 but it works perfectly for our tomato and our pepper plants and a few herbs]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14251 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14251 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse should be placed to grow stuff in winter.  Thus, placement for winter sun is critical. 

I suppose one could build a greenhouse strictly for starts in the spring, but that seems like a lot of work for very little gain. 

I think it might also be worth considering not building a greenhouse at all.  I think if one took the time, one could come up with an exceptionally sound argument as to why a greenhouse is not good use of the time and money it takes to build it and keep it operational. 

Further, I think that if one chooses to build a greenhouse, Oehler's designs should seriously be considered.  I suspect that an oehler greenhouse would be faster to build, cheaper and work far better than any other design. 

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14252 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14252 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I therefore think season extender is the best use for a GH since you get something and are less likely to bet the whole winter food supply on things working properly.  However I am not pricing this out- if a GH is cheap any benefit is worth it, if it's expensive (as mine was in England) I paid a good bit for growing my own/ extending my growing season.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14258 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14258 Re: greenhouse suck factor I wish I lived where you do but you could not have a viable garden in my area without a greenhouse. Snow on July fourth is not unheard of. This year first frost was in July. In your area perhaps a greenhouse is uneccessary but we are not all fortunate to live under ideal growing circumstances. You can't paint with such a broad brush. Greenhouses suck in some areas and  are an ideal solution in others. Cloches and groundcover cloths are also a must have for me. One season in my area and your position would perhaps be different.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14259 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14259 Re: greenhouse suck factor
jenn wrote:
Paul recall your HT chicken article experience


Oh yes .... good times ....    I expressed opinions and several people freaked out and attempted to shut me down - then they started the process to ban me from the forums.   

I'm used to infuriating people.  It doesn't bother me any more.  Each flavor of infuriation is usually slightly different but most of them seem to boil down to people demanding that I live my life according to their standards and if I choose to live my life according to my own standards instead, they get really mad.  Wacky.

jenn wrote:
consider not offering any hard rules about this! 


I guess I'm not following what you are suggesting:  what would be my hard rules?  So far I have merely expressed my opinion.  And as for hard rules, will you permit me to have hard rules for how I choose to live my life?

jenn wrote:
However, if making hard rules, I would say the south gets way too hot most of the time, even in winter, so that must be considered and addressed, and in the north it still can get too cold so that needs to be considered.


I agree about the stuff about the south.  And, I have to wonder why folks would have a greenhouse in the south.  Maybe there is something particularly delicate that somebody wants to grow as a hobby or as a niche crop.

As for the north:  I see that as probably the primary target for a greenhouse.  Folks have the fantasy of growing veggies all year. 

jenn wrote:
I therefore think season extender is the best use for a GH since you get something and are less likely to bet the whole winter food supply on things working properly.  However I am not pricing this out- if a GH is cheap any benefit is worth it, if it's expensive (as mine was in England) I paid a good bit for growing my own/ extending my growing season.


I agree with this. 

I kinda wonder about merging greenhouse stuff with graywater stuff.  And while a decent greenhouse probably won't provide a lot of food, a wee bit through the winter can be nice.  And, as you say, if it's cheap and easy it could be worth it. 

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14261 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14261 Re: greenhouse suck factor
wyldthang wrote:
the best, most versatile greenhouse I've seen is a greenhouse/sunroom attached to a house.  The greehouse was cobbled together from salvaged windows, and had a dirt floor with gravel. There was a big door between the house and greenhouse that could be left open, and the hosue was heated with a wood stove (about 12 feet from this door), and the main floor had a cement floor that held the woodstove heat very nicely--there were cement bricks stacked around the stove which conducted the heat down to the floor more.

THe greenhouse was attached to the east side of the house)it may be more SE), and the guys grew tomatos and bell peppers in there--which is about all he cares to grow.  I'd say the GH is about 12 x 20'? The GH extends his harvest into December, and he overwinters some plants some years. He may have grow lamps(I visit his house every year on an art tour, I'll have to peek and see--the PNW is notorious for lack of sun)

This is in the Coast Range of Oregon, at about 1000'. So I'd say his set up is a success adn I would like to do something like it someday.  The house is small, and the GH is a nice place to sit as well(sunroom), and I think letting it get open to the house heat from the woodstove helps.

He grows the plants in 5-gallon buckets or half barrels in the GH.

I really like the idea of having a greenhouse/sunroom kind of thing attached to the house.


This is basically what I would plan to do.  Attached, about 12' X 20', probably a rocket stove to heat the bottom of the plant bed, with space for sitting out there to enjoy the sun.  I wouldn't be trying to grow tomatoes in the winter, but might have salad greens over the winter.  The area I'm looking at moving to has summer highs in the sixties, so it isn't just a question of the length of the growing season, but also the amount of heat, which just isn't sufficient for some crops outdoors.  They aren't essential, but I want a sunroom to sit in anyway (the greenhouse would be by far the largest room in the house), so might as well utilize it for as many purposes as possible.  Kind of like permaculture, LOL!

Kathleen]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14263 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14263 Re: greenhouse suck factor
A trick I saw on Ran Prieur's blog strikes me as fun and useful:

To assess winter sun during the summer, look at the full moon.  Its place in the sky will be just about exactly where the sun would be at the opposite time of day and year.  Doesn't work for other phases of the moon, unfortunately.

In his case, roads to his property tend not to be open during winter, so until he has built there, he can't assess winter sun placement directly.  I can see other reasons to use this trick, though.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14269 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14269 Re: greenhouse suck factor
lapinerobert wrote:
Paul,
I wish I lived where you do but you could not have a viable garden in my area without a greenhouse. Snow on July fourth is not unheard of. This year first frost was in July. In your area perhaps a greenhouse is uneccessary but we are not all fortunate to live under ideal growing circumstances. You can't paint with such a broad brush. Greenhouses suck in some areas and  are an ideal solution in others. Cloches and groundcover cloths are also a must have for me. One season in my area and your position would perhaps be different.


Where are you?

I have had snow in july twice. 

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14273 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14273 Re: greenhouse suck factor The altitude isn't much diffrent from Wyoming where I was able to grow gardens without a greenhouse, but the flux in temperatures here is much more drastic. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14274 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14274 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse did save our tomato and pepper plants from any damage..i'm very thankful for that.

we had 33 this morning and they are saying that we will be warming up now for two weeks..above normal temps..so the greenhouse was a great boon, the warmer weather will bring our tomatoes and peppers back up to wanting to flower and bear more..yet..

you know when it does get less sunny, even with a greenhouse some plants will just flounder even though they are warm and cozy..

as for cost..yes it cost us $1000 for our greenhouse originally..so so far if you average it out over the 20 years or so we have had it..that is less than $50 a year..that is still a lot of money to pay for tomato and peppers i guess..but have you eaten storebought tomatos?]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14330 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14330 Re: greenhouse suck factor
paul wheaton wrote:
And, I have to wonder why folks would have a greenhouse in the south.  Maybe there is something particularly delicate that somebody wants to grow as a hobby or as a niche crop.


Greenhouses are in the south for the same reasons as there are greenhouses anywhere else.

Jim
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14474 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14474 Re: greenhouse suck factor tomatoes or peppers or any other warm season crops year round and it would be nice to get a head start on seedlings in the spring. we have a long growing season compared to many but not an endless one. it would probably often make the difference between buying seedlings or starting them myself in many cases. I'm not real keen on filling my home with flourescent lights. we can have such wild weather in the spring I have had entire garden devastated by hail.  it would be nice if I hadn't spent 3$ per plant on each of those seedlings.  it would probably allow me to grow peas, cabbage, carrots and other cool season vegies without any supplemental heat right through jan/feb/mar, our coldest months. that would be nice. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14476 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14476 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14512 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14512 Re: greenhouse suck factor permaculture to the letter. I think it loses its value if it becomes an exclusive club only for those willing to forgo any deviation. besides sometimes the status quo should be upturned a bit.......humans have been manupulating the enviroment to suit us since we appeared. so does permaculture. I don't really see how a greenhouse is detrimental to the enviroment and so I think it can be a useful addition for some people.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14516 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14516 Re: greenhouse suck factor     I am willing to back up any idea to stem the crazy modern or rather od fashioned  farming tide. The complete disregard of the future of their soils and the complete ignorance about whats good for their crops now of farmers. A crazy ignorance about plants and soils that ignores factors such as humus's ability to keep the soil damp and so  iron out ups and downs in the weather, to tide the crop over dry spells in its growing season or that micorrhyzos really lead to bigger crops.
      Farming technics are not only ruinous as far as farming is concerned,  treatment of the land can change the amount of water that is available for all of us. If you care about people you have to be interested in what sort of planting reduces water loss. if you planted the dry slopes of  south American hills with some hardy grass like esparta that does not take up much water but does isolate the ground and maybe like other plants brings rain would you increase the water availiable to poor south americans? Some plants take up more water than others and no plants at all, land left fallow, must lead to great evaporation because the earth gets so hot in the sun. "Water harvesting" is the pair of words  that leads you to more information on this topic but i don't think it has been properly investigated so there should be a lot of work to do on it.
      I am not really willing to back up "anything" but i am much more worried about the crazy excesses of old fashioned farming than about the excesses in permaculture.

    It is worrying having people thinking that others wont be able to moderate themselves, i think it is it leads to tyrannies. It is the base of totalitarianism. If you look at how the majority of farmers  have accepted old fashioned farming technics, the instructions on the expensive fertilizer sacks, then it seems that it is right to worry, still it is better to let people moderate themselves as long as all the information is out there.

  I am not a very applied reader of gardening books, sort of looking through them has let me know a lot and so on hearing of others don't know about the importance of humus and covercrops and such, i find i know more than farmers and i wonder if farmeres read anything at all. It is a bit worrying to find they are as ignorant as they look if you read this forum a bit. Maybe its hopefull it makes you understand thier disastrous farming methods better and puts remedying them closer at hand. Was it Sue Monroe who talked about how they grow poor thin hay round her. Her testimony backs up the idea that the methods upheld by a great part of the community are no good, it is them that are odd not permaculturists.
  I really hope everyone will go permaculture crazy though i am not sure about wanting them to carve up every hill and change everything, i always get really attached to the known, I hope it people will go permaculture crazy because what we have is so awful. It seems so hard to stem the other farming methods that i am sick with worry about. That does not mean that things like green houses don't need going into.  agri rose macaskie.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14530 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14530 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I won't get into why i disagree, as i believe there are far too many people over intellectualizing the permaculture movement who ahve never farmed, and that they project their "ideal" notions of how the world should work from a place of privilege- not hunger.

Conversely in Latin America we are seeing an explosion of permaculture acceptance by the poor because it so easily resembles the milpa.

Bottomline- a greenhouse can make a poor family food sovereign in the cold north- and built and used properly it can be almost totally cogenerative.

In VT you can see "sunrooms" on the north sides of buildings for the view.

but growing greens without heat in a gh will be less carbon intensive than getting them from cali.



we are experimenting with earth bermed greenhouses but only in places where you get the minimum of 5-6 hours light at solstice- found and determined with solar arc finder.

VTers are having luck with aquaponics systmes and combining citrus and other trees in their greenhouses. The thermal mass of the plants themselvs actually balance temperatures as their root and soil mass hold heat.

Eliot Coleman has also figured out that low tunnels in greenhouses are more effective than heating greenhouses at all if you - have enough light. In fact light is more important than heat- his research has shown.

Unfortunately if we build exposed northern walls with a plastic r-value of 1 we will waste heat. so why build a greenhouse, when you can start plants inside a warm place under lights and impove into cold frame??

It really is nice though to have a greenhouse full of plants when it is -40 degrees out.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14532 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14532 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse isn't Permie..well the first book i ever read on permaculture..many years ago showed sketches and had info on building greenhouses..and was the first place i ever learned the idea of a chicken heated greenhouse..

The book was "Introduction to Permaculture" Bill Mollison..If you go to the Index you will find these references..Greenhouse as a cooling device page 82, as a shower area page 74, chicken heated page 153,essentials of 80 - 82,in cold climate 112 - 114,siting of 64,

pages 81,82 (window),107,113,116 (coldframe), show beautiful line drawings of use of greenhouse or other glass areas ...and this was one of the original permaculture teaching books.

so I don't understand the statment that greenhouses aren't Permie..that was one of the first impressions I got from reading the book and i had just purchased my greenhouse a few years prior so i was thrilled at more information on using it on my property.

Actually this book was my only information on permaculter for a long time..and i found it fascinating and very helpful even though it was not written for our climate i was able to adapt it to my climate by using the common sense information that was available in it to make a lovely property here around our home..it also encouraged me to glass in my front porch and to provide a shade porch on the rear of my house that we put in after the housefire..using the common sense beliefs and adapting to the climater here in Michigan]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14533 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14533 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is "permie" or not depends on how much of its materials and/or heating method (if any) are recycled or produced on site as opposed to being purchased brand new or offsite.

In other words, a greenhouse made of cob produced on site and scrounged recycled windows is a lot more "permie" than one made of aluminum and polycarbonate purchased new from Home Depot.

Also, a greenhouse that is well integrated (makes good use of "waste" produced elsewhere, and itself produces only "waste" which can be used elsewhere) into a food-producing system is more "permie" than one that is not.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14540 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14540 Re: greenhouse suck factor permaculture lifestyle  in cool climates. The start of the thread was that greenhouses had a suck factor. In some cases they might be a useless expense or uneccessary. But a figure of 18% pulled out of the air is really not something that could be proved with any empirical data provided.
In my area I need a green house for many crops and have been successful in many of my efforts that do not require a greenhouse. But for tomatoes, peppers melons I need the protection of a greenhouse structure.
Hydroponics and aquaculture are venues that some purist (if there is such a thing as pure permaculture) might not approve of but I'm not takng them out of my efforts.
I'm trying to make my lifestyle as self sustaining as possible and will slowly work towards that goal.  In my cool climate it will be more difficult than other places I have lived, Wyoming and South Carolina, but it is a work in progress.
Will I ever acheive the ability to sever outside contact? Probably not, but I am enjoying the effort and am enjoying positive ideas and dialogue here. What works in some areas won't work for me and what works for me won't work in other areas.
Like any student I take and use what is valuable and viable for me and remember the rest even though I won't use it in my particular circumstance.
  Just because some one doesn't heed my advice on a subject (site of a greenhouse) doesn't mean that all greenhouses suck or that there are not some that are useful.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14541 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14541 Re: greenhouse suck factor tomatoes when i was in the country a few days ago and the difference between the taste of these tomatoes and bought ones was really big so i can understand Brenda Groth wanting her home grown ones.
    My grandmother had a green house full of tomatoes and  grapes, She was an efficient determined person, maybe you have to have your use of the green house clear to stop it getting turned into a junk room. Paul Wheaton says the temperatures in them are so up and down they aren't really good for seedlings I don't remember many seedlings in my grandmothers green house and she had a vegetable garden.

   It is the first time i have heard green houses questioned  it is interesting to think maybe they aren't so usefull for some things like that though they heat seed they subject them to such ups and downs that it is not really good for seedlings and then there is the question of how far north you are.

  Paul wheaton  mentions drums of water in green houses to conserve the heat in them and stop the temperatures plumeting at night. This is an idea the people who make pacific solar energy design houses talk of too look up "larry hartweg" in google and then tap on "zero energy design, abundant energy in harmony with nature" his house designs have a green house on the south side of the houses and use the hot air from it to heat the houses, if your are rich enough, with a swimming pool in it to hold the heat and to swim in, they are dreamy.

      There are, peoples green houses, made to provide them with house fruit and veggies better quality food or food which relieves them from food bills and whether they are used or not may depend on the time and efficiency of the owners, whether you are looking after small children or not, some moments in life aren't good ones for extra jobs you might find you use it later in your life.  There are also industrial green houses and i don't know how to evaluate their value.
     I have just been looking at Bill Mollison youtube videos and he has a follower with a green house that he says gives valuable heat in such a cold part of America as the one this man lives in, "temperate permacullture structures part 1", so green houses are kosher permaculture, though they may not be Fukuoka as he insists on keeping things simple and not giving ourselves work. It is very kind of him to want to keep things simple and get us working less so that is a good reason to really inspect all the things we use to see if they really help us. Also it is not part of what mnature provides for whichever place the green houes is in maybe you get more plagues in them.
 Here in Spain there are whole big areas of green houses in the south that produce winter, summer vegetables for the whole of Europe. I suppose they are not the only one producing these. The Moroccans immigrants work in them and my heart bleeds for them, i imagine that the herbicides and pesticides in a enclosed and hot space and i think it must be a canceriginouse job. I have not researched this, i just imagine it to be so. Is it moral to create nasty jobs for people? I suppose permiculture should be greening Morocco instead of us giving Moroccans poisonous jobs. We should be able to get by on cabbages and leaks, maybe, winter vegetables, it really makes life more exciting when you can't always have everything at everytime of year.
  In the last month or so under the influence of this blog i have looked up permaculture videos in youtube and found a video of Geoff lawton, "greening the desert", it is the first video in the ones that appear if you tap in "permaculture" and press search, at least it is for me. He makes a disapproving mention of the green houses they use by the dead sea were he was greening the desert his greening the desert  was really interesting but he does not go into whats wrong with green houses. agri rose macaskie.  
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14552 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14552 Re: greenhouse suck factor I absolutely agree that there can be wide temperature shifts within a greenhouse if not monitored and mitigated. My first year as I have mentioned was a dismal failure other than the hydroponic greens later in the season. But the addition of the large volume of water that was used to pump through my hydro system did temper the fluctuation dramatically. The addition of sunshade the next year, a more elaborate but scavenged photovoltaic fan system again added a more successful season. I have a greenhouse attached to the house as well and all my seedlings are started there. The greenhouse is just a tool and you get more proficient the more you use any tool. As with any tool you sometimes have to sharpen it or adjust it to get it to work right.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14553 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14553 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse i'm not sure how they would fare..might try this next year.

sometimes when i read things like the book on eating within 100 miles..etc..i realize that maybe i shouldn't even be allowed to eat tomato and pepper products as they are tropicals and i don't live in a tropical place..but we like them a lot and they are very healthy products for us to eat..so i grow them in my greenhouse..and am glad that i do.

i get more than enough for fresh, canning and freezing..and probably could dry some but haven't.

i likely will continue to grow tomato and pepper plants in my greenhyouse until i die..i have rosemary in there this year for the first time and i'm going to see if it will survive ethe witner unheated int the greenhouse..hoepefully it will..i do have a list of plants i would like to try growing inthe greenhyouse..however..it is very small and i'm not interested in getting a larger one.

i do have the wood boiler buildling that last year maintained about 50 degrees all winter inside..and i'm thinking of possibly putting a small glassed in area off of the SE corner of this building some time..i won't get to it this year..and if i do..it might be a place that would be more useful for experimenting with year around crops..then i wouldn't have to actually heat the greenhouse..per se..next year i'll keep my eye out for some salvaged glass to consider glassing in a corner of that building..or putting a small glassed in extension on it..close to the boiler..and then possibly that will be a way to expand my greenhouseY type of forays..myh front glassed in porch getsw way too hot and way too cold to grow things there..but it does helpt o heat the house in the winter..which was it's purpose..and the cats love it....but to heat it at night would be a waste of heat....at least for now..this has been an interesting thread..but honestly..i think hard and fast rules are just a foolish thing when it comes to life..as there are so many differentials in climate and people..

our climate demands that we protect our plants if we want them to produce..we had less than 90 days between frosts here this year..and the coldest summer and the coldests winter on record for this past year..so i know how difficult it is for pepole from warmer climates to even understand that..in Michigan, wind breaks and shade are both needed..to warm and to cool your home..and greenhouses and hot caps and cold frames are a must if you want to grow tenders..

we have friends that have a market garden near Lake Huron..and they have a couple of hoop houses..they grow their tenders inside of those until it is safe to set them out..if they didn't..they wouldn't have any to offer to the area at farmers markets..that would be a shame..as they are the only farmers markets growers here to offer hot pepeprs ..it might not matter to those living where they can pick a pepper intheir garden..but here..that is just not possible]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14562 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14562 Re: greenhouse suck factor   ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14635 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/14635 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse.

My greenhouse rule: I will do with it as I please and leave you to do with yours as you please.

At this time the old one is coming down, a new one is going up.  The old one I put together with scrap lumber I had lying around. 4 2x10s standing on edge made the square base, 4 2x6s upright at the corners, 4 2x4s made a square roof frame.  A little more lumber and a door, the thing was done-a 8x8x8 cube.  I first covered the whole thing with 6 mil visqueen, stapled in place on a 60 degree Thanksgiving morning, 3 hours later, it was 110' inside.  For the next 5 years it was a process of accumulation and redneck engineering.  Lighting was added with an extension cord, some spare wire, a couple of $3 jar lights from the hardware store.  The roof was held up with 3 sections of PVC pipe after the rain turned it into a bowl hanging down a couple feet.  A diagonal brace was added.  The north wall was covered with scrap plywood.  Shelves were added as I came across suitable lumber.  Water was a garden hose shove under the frame.   I did some work installing doors and windows for Lowe's, picked up enough sliding glass doors to cover 3 sides. 

I did spend money on heating in the winter.  I got a 55 gallon plastric drum from a guy for 10 buck.  This was filled with water and an 8 watt fountain pump added.  The pump moved the water through 500 feet of black PEP hose, irrigation hose, which was coiled in the driveway.  Pump ran off a timer so that when the sun hit the hose, the pump would start then stop when the sun went behind the palm trees.  I'd get the tank up to 100-120 most of the time.  Come morning it would have cooled to 40-50, but kept the space warm enough.  Never lost a single thing to frost.  The power to run the pump cost about 12 cents per month. 

I use the greenhouse for seed and transplant propagation.  Being a 1/4 acre property, there is only so much space for a garden.  By reducing the time the plants spend in the beds, I greatly expand production.  Plants go in with a deep root system so they can withstand dry conditions, thick stems so they can take a hit from cutworms, and are spaced for optimum production.  A plant comes out of the beds, I've got another one ready to go in.  I have only 750 sqft of beds, but I get all the produce I need for me and my neighbor. 

Cooling was never a problem.  With the visqueen cover, it never held up for long with the Florida sun.  I cover the thing in November, by April it was worn out.  No roof sucked when it rained so I eventually covered it with corrugated polycarbonate sheets.

The new greenhouse is being built in the driveway.  At 9x12 it will offer plenty of room to move around.  I'll even have space to keep warm weather plants.  Nothing wrong with tomatoes in January.  I'll try to get some pictures up.  Should be done in another couple of weeks.


edited for spelling
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20399 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20399 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse i said you need to think of things like sun exposure, shade, wind, etc....basically i said you need to build a solar greenhouse and build it like this......well, i was also labeled a negative nelly so to speak. long story short the greenhouse was built with looks in mind, over function. and the greenhouse can not handle what winter can throw at her, it does well into the high 20's but once it got to 20 or below our 15ft tomatoes were toast.

that being said i dont think greenhouses are a waste, or even a separation from nature. the greenhouse here even though not perfect. THRIVES with life. we have so much natural pest control in there its not even funny. i have seen 3 species of frogs, 2 lizard species, countless predatory insects. all in a 12x20 greenhouse. no problems with pests.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20421 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20421 Re: greenhouse suck factor Greenhouse..........  Well I call what I have more of a cold frame.

I am in the south.  A sealed up greenhouse is more like a steam cooker for plants in the summer and even on a hot winter day.

I now only seal up my "greenhouse" on freeze/frost warning nights.  Otherwise it is pretty open on the ends during winter here.  In the summer, it is only a roof as I remove the sides completely and there is shade cloth over the top.  This allows me to keep the tomatoes and peppers growing as perennials. 

This cold frame is over the aquaponics system and last year I tried to grow tilapia year round but have since decided that they are too close to being tropical and we like the catfish better.  See to keep the water warm enough to make the tilapia happy, I was having to keep the greenhouse sealed up too much to try and regain heat, result was the water wasn't much warmer but most of the plants suffered from too hot/humid during the day and still too cold and wet at night.

So, Things seem to be growing better this year already with my change in management.  Tomatoes and peppers are still happy by keeping them from freezing but I'm still managing to grow cool weather crops as well.  We have harvested most of the tilapia and I will not stress over keeping the water too warm so this won't cost extra this year.

As to the suck factors.  If you don't plan properly, a greenhouse can become worse than useless.  The humidity in a greenhouse can easily cause huge fungus and mold problems if you don't control it.  They can easily get way too hot in summer and still be too cold in winter.  Lots of research should be done before investing in such a thing.  Winter sun is important and summer shade can be too.  Or simply opening up the sides or having roll up sides can completely change the usefulness of a "greenhouse."

I guess they should be treated like every other item in a permaculture design.  With all aspects of them being carefully thought out as to usefulness and functions they can fulfill in relation to resources they will use (space/energy/maint/etc.)  What is appropriate for a greenhouse in one location is pure folly in another.  My greenhouse was pretty inexpensive to build, some posts, some boards, some cattle panels and some plastic.  Would not be a good idea for anywhere with regular snow, tornadoes, or hail.  All I need do to make it hurricane safe is knife the plastic on the roof since the sides are removed already in summer.

My new "outdoor kitchen" is also a bit of a cold frame.  It has white tarps for the top and sides and for freeze warning nights I can put plastic up on the ends as well and I can keep tropicals from freezing back that way.  Will see if I get more bananas and papayas this way or not, the white tarp might block too much light, we will see.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20422 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20422 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20426 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20426 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse without external heat input. Cabbage, leeks, carrots, claytonia and spinach still green and alive. I love my greenhouse.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20427 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20427 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse, that's just fine with me.  Your convictions fit in with my greenhouse rule: I will do with it as I please and leave you to do with yours as you please.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20428 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20428 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse has real world costs that just happen to effect me.Just like the lowering of ground water by people using irrigation effects me.If people keep the ecological costs of their endevours in their space,then yes,we dont have a problem.Im assuming those with purchased green houses will jump at the opportunity to have a LOCAL greenhouse manufacturing facility within breathing distance and are advocates of oil pecurement for plastic or coal mining for glass.If not?Perhaps Im mistaken but I thought this thread was for ranting on greenhouses which,due to my interest in sustainability,have 10+yrs of experience in.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20463 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20463 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse,Ive had to utilize some of the other INFINATE options to meeting my needs and low and behold,ten years later,Ive developed a lifestyle not dependent on a greenhouse.Now Im not gonna fault someone for using what choices they can see to survive within the existing social structure.But if you need a greenhouse to do that .then getting one just treats the symptom and a closer look at the root cause of needing such a techological crutch might be in order.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20464 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20464 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse that can not be produced locally yet extends or improves the harvest/productivity would be a positive.
If by using a greenhouse I reduce the use of fuel to transport products into my location that would be a positive.
If a greenhouse is made of salvaged materials that would be a positive.
Initial cost and impact spread out over the life of a tool or greenhouse has to be considered. Just because it came from outside the local area does not make it bad if it's purchase and use are effective in reducing impact from other sources.
Deliberative thought has to go into purchases and in my area a greenhouse is essential to extend what is a short growing season.
A shovel, rake, hoe are not locally produced in my area yet are tools that I need to produce. A prudent and intelligent choice since to create a facility to produce them would be a foolish waste of resources.
In some cases a greenhouse might not be a wise choice depending on materials used for its construction, orientation of the structure  and what one might get from its productive capabilities. In my case and I'm sure many others a greenhouse is a structure that makes sense.
When I lived on the west side of the cascades I didn't need a greenhouse. In South Carolina I didn't need a greenhouse.
  A tree that bends with the wind does not break, you have to adjust to your locale.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20465 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20465 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is a `positive`for YOU.Probably not to positive for those things on the production end of it though.One of the best ways to rationalize the present as `progressive`is to compare it to something worse.So yea,their are worse things out there than a greenhouse.By having/using a greenhouse,you are a de-facto improvement.But why stop there?compared to whats possible sustainability wise.Greenhouses `make sense`until your knee deep in the middle east.Cant agree that greenhouse dependence is `adjusting to your locale`or being flexable.Just the opposite actually.How about `adjusting your loacale`.I do consider them `adjusting to the social strucure`as living like a native is pretty much illegal and your pretty much trapped on your property so you kinda gotta have to `adjust your locale`just to survive.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20466 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20466 Re: greenhouse suck factor
RawVim wrote:
Greenhouses are in the south for the same reasons as there are greenhouses anywhere else.

Jim



Depends on how south you are. For example, in Costa Rica, we have greenhouses, no heating, obviously, but they have shade clothe and plastic. Shade so that you cut down on the sun, and plastic to try to keep the soil reasonably dry.

You almost can't grow tomatoes without this.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20467 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20467 Re: greenhouse suck factor To point a finger at everyone who might own a greenhouse and say they are knee deep in the middle east oil is so easy.  To divorce anyone in the United States and say that they have not or are not benefitting from oil at some point I think is difficult. Right or wrong.
Have we or do we use an asphalt road?
Have any furniture that has foam rubber?
Ever owned or driven a car?
Recieved goods transported from another area by any internal combustion machines?
Live in a modern house.
Have nothing that is made from plastic.
Use electricity?
Hot water?
Lumber?
Woven cloth.
Sewer infrastucture?
Water infrastructure?
Well drilled by a machine?
Use any modern tools?
Paper?
Read a book, newspaper?
Telephone?
Parafin wax?
Ever eaten anything produced and packaged by some one else?
Benefitted by an emergency response vehicle.
Ever been treated by modern medicine.
Gone to school?
Clothes manufactured of cotton?
Clothes manufactured of man made materials?
Clothes made of hemp and processed by machines?
Unless we live in some kind of macrame impervious bubble and have never set foot on a sidewalk we have benefitted from oil. It's a cross we all have to carry. Now how to mitigate what we have done, and acknowledge responsibility.
So essentially depending on where one lives and how old they are they might have a bigger oil footprint than I have. But if you live in North America you have one like it or not.
Hard for me to make a leap from social structure to a greenhouse structure.
Learn, adapt, overcome a greenhouse used properly lessens my impact.
Count the things that we touch tomorow without the scent of oil or coal on them.
 
 





]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20483 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20483 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse and instead spend our limited time and money on some of the unlimited other options toward food security"Those people will be creating the permanent cultures of the future.Not perpetuating this clunky inefficient evolutionary dead end known as civilization!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20485 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20485 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20487 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20487 Re: greenhouse suck factor tomatoes.  I've built 3 for myself, 2 for other people.  I've seen productive uses and I've seen a few that are little more than covered storage.

Commercial greenhouses are the big ones.  A hundred feet long, hundreds and thousands of plants, all the buzzers and whistles.  Often, the efficiency of scale makes these cost effective and highly productive.  They were planned right, built well and serve the needs of the industry or enterprise that operates it. 

Residential greenhouses are another matter.  Many are purchased and erected on a whim.  Someone with more money than sense.  Maybe they saw one on TV and thought it was cool.  Maybe they know someone who has one and are just keeping up with the Jones's.  For whatever reason, There are lots of greenhouses where the owner had good intentions and lots of excitement but little knowledge or need, the excitement waned, and other distractions left the thing sitting in the corner of the yard unused.  These are the fad greenhouses.  They seemed like a good idea at the time, but in the end proved to be a means of separating a fool from money.  Lots of people buy things they never use, greenhouses are no exception.  Rather than rail against greenhouses as being wasteful, it might be a better cause to rail against stupidity.  Greenhouses are limited, stupidity has no bounds.

I've seen greenhouses that are busy, active, and full of life, kept up by an attentive owner who is highly motivated and involved with it.  Roses and orchids, cacti, lilies, amarylises, flowers and ornamental plants, every color of the rainbow and for every season of the year.  They use all the fertilizers and herbicides and pesticides, root hormones and water conditioners.  The end product is certainly pretty, but for the resources consumed, I would prefer a product with a more practical function.  I've seen greenhouses with aluminum frames, rubber gasketed double walled glass, stonework stemwalls, marble sills, and better climate control than I have in my house.  It would be the pinnacle of rudeness for me to insist they should be growing vegetables to eat instead of flowers to look at.  Its their BBQ and it tastes good to them. 






]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20488 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20488 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse operation and the nitrates in their well water are rising.Is that not the pinnacle of rudeness.Why blame the victems for complaining?.The reality here is that greenhouses have ecological costs and that those effect real people in real ways.To just discount that imo is the pinnacle of rudeness.I dont believe humans are stupid other than weve created such a confusing ,tangled mess that we are no longer capable of understanding the ramifications of our actions.
You will note that this particular thread is explicitly about the downsides of greenhouse and while I relise that some are on this forum to strickly pat themselves on the back for saving the planet(with their greenhouse),I feel it is of upmost importance to point out the downsides that I know about.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20490 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20490 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse or garden.  Each plant I grow and consume is one less plant that needs to be produced in a manner that poisons your sister.  My neighbor gets stuff from my garden, which was started in my greenhouse, that further mitigates poisoning your sister.  Since the food grown in my yard does not need to be shipped thousands of miles by diesel trucks, the air your sister breathes is cleaner than it would have been otherwise.  My greenhouse is built with salvaged and scrap materials that otherwise would have ended up in landfills causing more pollutants in the groundwater.  The plants are grown in plastic cups I dug out of my brothers garbage can at great personal risk and are reused repeatedly.  The water used comes off my roof.  It is untreated and took no petroleum fuel to pump, hence no added air pollution or waste heat to contribute to the destruction of your sister's environment.

I'm doing what I can for you over here.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20493 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20493 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse pros and cons.Reusing stuff can be a great solution in the near term and its pretty hard to critique reused materials from any angle.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20495 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20495 Re: greenhouse suck factor local window replacement shops.  They have a gondola out back that gets hauled away every two weeks, I spoke with the owner about taking something out for my own use.  He stated that he pays by weight and size, so taking a few things out actually saves him a few pennies and it helps me.  The last dumpster run provided me with five wood framed patio door insulated glass units, with clear tempered glass in them.  I had to pull a few staples out of the edges but that way it.  A few more units and I will have enough glass, but there is much more planning to do before anything gets built as a structure.  Possibly this will help others obtain materials cheaply.

I work for a glass company, but I cannot order the glass this cheaply.  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20503 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20503 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Mt.goat wrote:
We are all connected and the herbicides and fertilizers they use end up in someones drinking water.My sister bought a house near a small greenhouse operation and the nitrates in their well water are rising.Is that not the pinnacle of rudeness.Why blame the victems for complaining?.


But is it the greenhouse it's self making the choice to use herbicides and fertilizers to the point of getting into the ground water?  No, it's the people running the commercial operation.  Even if they were growing without the greenhouse a big nursery operation or whatever they are running could cause those same drinking water issues and actually probably even worse as it is harder to control the amount of water used in such an operation when under an open sky.  It is often about attention and labor at that point.  Too costly to have employees hand check and water the stock so they run the automatic watering systems as a matter of course if it's needed or not.  The greenhouse isn't changing that.  Actually a greenhouse just keeps it contained a little better since sprayed products used in the greenhouse are less likely to drift directly over to your sister's house, she may be getting protected a little by it.

All I'm really saying here is that the greenhouse is a tool not the person or business deciding to use the bad chemicals.

The point of this thread I thought was to highlight the down sides of greenhouses so that people thinking about using them will think carefully and not build a useless wasteful greenhouse.  When used appropriately a greenhouse is no more wasteful then the house you live in since the functions it fills outweighs the resources it consumes.  For those that are going to build a greenhouse that gets full summer sun and complete winter shade, well they would have been better off building a shed.  Or like the guy asking me which lettuce variety to grow hydroponically in his desert greenhouse in a hot climate with no meas of cooling the greenhouse.  "I'm thinking dude who wrote your business plan and let you do such a thing?"  He didn't understand that lettuce doesn't like 120 degree F heat but had invested huge in a greenhouse to run a business growing lettuce in a middle eastern desert.  Sigh.

So it is probably not necessary to vilify the people here who actually use their greenhouses to grow their own food likely with minimal chemical herbicides, pesticides, and fertilizers to pollute your water.
Claiming that all greenhouses are evil because some commercial business near your sisters house is polluting the ground water is like claiming that all farming and gardening are killing the planet because big ag uses chemicals and depletes it's soil.  Not everyone has the choice to find the perfect location to buy land (and still make enough money to pay the taxes) where they can support their family, so they do the best they can where they are at.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20504 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20504 Re: greenhouse suck factor Am I happy with current government and our dependence on finite resources, no. I want better.
If we live here we are an integral piece of the current model though we want to be disconnected.
What would be a a greenhouse that had less impact than what you opposed?
For example near here is a fellow that has a greenhouse that he has constructed of straw bales and reclaimed windows and sliding glass doors. Localy produced wheat straw. salvaged glazing. is that 1% better on your scale? 10%.
As far as nitrate contamination of well water there are really is some pertinent data that has to be identified before you can effectively say that nitrates are coming from a commercial entity and not some other non-point source.
Level depth of oxic and sub-oxic water, depth of well and signature of the nitrates identified in the well water. If she is on a well, I assume that the area is not served by sewer? It could easily be from some other source than a greenhouse, though it could very well be the source.   A neighbors leaking septic waste. Farm silage. Even buried vegatation can cause an elevated nitrate signature. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20510 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20510 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is a tool and it can take a lot of pollution to create one.That pollution might be spread into the enviroment we all share where it might not be quantifyable anymore but would,non the less,be there for us to breath ect..so pestecides aside,just the construction of a new greenhouse in itself affects people and planet in a negative way and may therefore,constitite a downside.While a purchased greenhouse may pay for itself economically,the amount of resourses and pollution required to manufacture and deliver it make it hard for me to believe that a person would ever get a caloric return on that investment(regardless of how well it was used).I have made effort to keep my critique largly on purchased greenhouses here.My main point is that nobody NEEDs a greenhouse and there are alot of other activities that are more ecologically responsible and have a higher caloric return.We can use our limited oil(and I DD)to set ourselves up for not needing oil or we can develop dependence on industrial products by choosing to integrate a greenhouse into our homestead/lifestyle/culture.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20514 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20514 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse produced from locally salvaged material reduces impact to some degree compared to a newly purchased greenhouse?
Does salvage or reuse add or detract from your balance sheet of impact?
I guess I can see a debit impact of a particular manufacture of a product but if it is reused after it's projected life span does it then begin to pay back?
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20515 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20515 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is by comparing it to worse options,then we have a problem.While most of you seem uncomfortable with my critique(a little close to home?),I will continue to speak out against what I believe to be a monumental waste of energy and resources-greenhouses.I will also work tirelessly toward providing examples of more ecologically alighned activities that have higher caloric return ratios.Those who purchase a greenhouse should take responsibility for the ecological costs.Those who salvaged a greenhouse have still made themselves culturally dependent on the oil/surpluss but avoid the `karma`of directly supporting the oil companies.I will reiterate here-IMO-1.purchased greenhouse-least efficient/worst.2.salvaged greenhouse-better.3.changing culture so greenhouse not neede-most efficient/best]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20516 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20516 Re: greenhouse suck factor Even though some are semi divorced from society do you have any karmic responsibility for the time you have been in the current society and benefitted from its dependence on oil?
When does ones payback begin and how does one measure it.
Though the romantic notion of going back to a native society is appealing to me, I've seen third world poverty and subsitence life without protective societal norms and hope to create or be a part of  creating a better forward looking system that for my area includes greenhouses.
Any comparison has perfect and less than perfect points.
Does the fact that we have an impact and a connection with the support of oil dependency hit close to home for any of us? It should, until we all agree that we are part of the problem we will move forward slowly, perhaps too slowly.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20517 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20517 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable culture that developed over thousands of years here has been destroyed,civilization gave me a plastic greenhouse to survive.yay!" There is unlimited potential beyond the 3rd world vs civilization dicotomy!I understand and relate to your fears about security in an uncertain future,however,I believe that putting your faith in civilization/system/progress ect...is acually the sourse of those fears and that true peace can only be attained through a close and trusting relationship with the earth.A permanent culture is more secure than dependence on technological crutches.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20520 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20520 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable examples that did exist(indigenous land use),then they profit off our insecurity by selling us things like greenhouses?!?I`m not going to thank them for attempting to exploit my fears.I`m actually annoyed and am going to run their little game(civilization)right into the ground!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20531 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20531 Re: greenhouse suck factor Religion, government, tribes, could all be saddled with the same description of providing security through prayer or numbers or promise of protection. If you distill its purpose governments are formed to protect the people. And whether you or I agree on its efficacy to date we have chosen to live under this governments protection and misuse of resources. There are no fences to keep either one of us from leaving. Trust me on this though, Somalia should not be on either one of our lists if we choose to go someplace else.
You have worked under the umbrella of protection and current societies misuse of finite resources to achieve what others in third world countries have not been able to or have access to. Now, once you have acheived some type of imagined security through your vision of sustainablity you sit on high and point at others and condemn their vision or pursuit. I think you are wrong and you think I am.
Our anthropologic ideas differ in that many tribes were opportunistic in their harvesting techniques. East coast estuaries for example were inhabited until oyster beds were depleted and easier pickings were farther down the beach. Perfect when there was no one else down the beach. Conflict for hunting grounds were a fact of their existence.
I'm not fearful of the future but want to change it to a better vision than what I see as coming to fruition with the current mindset.
Changing civilizations idea of what is right is a better use of my time than running it into the ground.
I get the picture you don't like greenhouses. I do.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20542 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20542 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable culture,there would be no break in managment and thus less work.That the system sets up hurdles to sustainability should be a critique of the system.That I was able to overcome those imposed hurtles should not be used as proof of the systems success.Yea,I`m not really into the whole oil/coal/greenhouse thing.Reality is what you can get away with so have at it all you greenhouse lovers!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20545 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20545 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse or a large cold frame that I assemble over my beds to keep them in production all winter long in a zone 7a climate where they would otherwise be shut down for 3-4 months except as a storage site for root crops.  By keeping the garden beds productive, I can extend the growing season for summer crops, keep the cool season crops growing well all through the winter and reduce the need to can or freeze as much produce as I would otherwise need to do.  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20561 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20561 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse glazing was made from a product not dependent on oil that would lessen your opposition. Maybe that will be an option in the future.
There are many permaculture practices that do not require gizmos but a massaging of the immediate local environment. Berms, swales or a raised bed are not any technological miracle.
There is no argument that  we have to reduce resource waste. What I have an issue with is to say that permaculture is an idea that requires a tremendous input.
Just look at the posts for synonyms for permaculture many have different ideas of just what it entails.
When I think of permaculture it is "permanent agriculture" and had never given it the broad vision of permanent "culture". If we add that idea of some type of governance/survival that a "culture" requires, it becomes a much larger vision.
Once people create an environment that I believe is possible on small parcels of land that offers sustainability I can see a switch from my permanent agriculture vision then encompassing an idea of permanent culture.
Small steps to start with, a big chess game with strategies is the way to play.
My wife carpools, there is an expenditure of resources to get the four people to work. The expenditure reduced by 75% is an intelligent reduction in resource use and spendable income for those that she pools with.
  If by using a greenhouse I reduce the need for external input from transporting food, shopping for food, storing food elsewhere, I see that it is an acceptable resource expenditure. If the greenhouse does not or is not used intelligently than I see it as a waste of resources back to Paul's original premise that some greenhouses "SUCK".
I like where I live, I have lived in areas that are more garden friendly. A properly maintained and utilized greenhouse doesn't have to be a resource liability.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20579 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20579 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20585 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20585 Re: greenhouse suck factor Is there any case in which you would say a greenhouse is productive? Could there be an 18% effective intilligent use of greenhouses?
If I am currently putting into production 300 square feet of parsnips,carrots, cabbage, spinach, leeks and claytonia that would otherwise not be producing now am I making any step towards sustainability?
Potatoes that I can't normally plant outdoors until May planted undercover in Mid March produce new potatoes in July.
Just for reference does your experience include gardening in cold climates? If so at what altitude?
Is it possible to divorce culture/civilization from a discussion of food sustainability and permaculture? (The agriculture permaculture)
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20589 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20589 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse to do good in some people's minds because they would simply say you shouldn't live there in the first place.

Might as well agree to dis-agree ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20590 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20590 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20591 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20591 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse and pioneer something different instead"If the rest of you want to make your food system dependent on civilization,then so be it ,but I want to be on the winning team!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20594 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20594 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse would bring and also much energy into ferments,drying,smoking,ect...but Im not gonna fault someone for not wanting to charge off into the unknown.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20595 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20595 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20596 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20596 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I'm against pointless spending on building things like greenhouses for those people who really won't use them much.  However, if some one is really going to put a tool to good use, then they should use it.  Just because I can dig with my hands, does that mean I should be condemned for using a shovel?

Think of a greenhouse as a tool that if the collapse happens, may not be easily replaced but that does not mean it shouldn't be used while it is available.  Heck, what if a climate shift happens along with the collapse, having some greenhouse plants might suddenly make you the new provider of suddenly climate appropriate plants.  But for most of us, a greenhouse is often a place for starting nursery stock and other things that need closer observation and attention.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20597 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20597 Re: greenhouse suck factor You don't know it, till you live it. I know what works in my area and learn from each success and failure.
Just because one talks loudly and with sureity doesn't make it true. Sometimes listening will tell you if the ice your on is cracking or not.
We all have varying degrees of expertise and experiences though I have lived in the south I do not have enough experience to effectively advise TClynx on a greenhouse.
Having relatives who live and have farms in Canada I do have some experience to draw from on cool weather gardening.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20604 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20604 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse to start trees for a more permanent landscape seems smart too.Granted,supporting greenhouse construction might bring the collapse on faster which I guess is my purported aim soo...yea please buy as many new greenhouses as you can people!...Jeez,I just tried to report myself to the moderatore for insanity but it said that doesnt make sense]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20605 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20605 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I do not support the idea of lots of people building greenhouses just because.  However, many people do greatly improve their ability to grow more food by using season extending practices like cold frames, greenhouses, frost blankets, cloches etc.  If they can re-use these things year after year and grow more of their own food rather than having to buy food that is shipped in from afar, I'm not gonna fault them for it.  I think it is really important to get as many people gardening as possible before the collapse.

No matter what, things will be difficult after the collapse, just hoping to have enough knowledge before hand to survive and learn what else we need to know.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20607 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20607 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse.

I stuck it near the bottom of my wofati article.





]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20652 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20652 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse promoting fundamentalists here in the thread you started.Hopefully you will be able to restore some order here.I`m totally innocent I swear!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20654 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20654 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Mt.goat wrote:
I highly recomend the Derrick Jensen book As the World Burns-50 simple things you can do to stay in denial.


I've read it.  I recommend that folks let it go. 

I know of one person that took it a bit too literally and embarked on some (IMOO) destructive behavior. 

The book makes some good points.  And makes some suggestions that really bother me.


]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20656 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20656 Re: greenhouse suck factor
TCLynx wrote:
Apparently you can't use anything like a greenhouse to do good in some people's minds because they would simply say you shouldn't live there in the first place.


Agreed.

I would really like to think that on this web site, people can freely express their opinion without fear of getting crushed by somebody with a different opinion.  I think it is fair to be persuasive.  I think pulling out the big guns shows that the argument is weak.

I still haven't finished reading everything in this thread, but I would like to remind everybody ....  I would appreciate it if all posts refrain from suggesting that anybody on this site is anything less than perfect.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20657 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20657 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20660 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20660 Re: greenhouse suck factor
And if you qualify your statement as "I think" then it gets shifted from "abrasive rant"  to "absolute fact" because it is, after all, what you think.



]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20662 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20662 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20663 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20663 Re: greenhouse suck factor
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20685 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20685 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse idea?]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20817 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20817 Re: greenhouse suck factor
"if anyone not on this site buys one they are supporting US occupation in the oil rich middle east,potentialy dooming their food systems future to a dependence on them,and poisoning all of us with the manufacturing process""

but what if you built your own greenhouse? and even from recycled materials that would otherwise have gone to the dump and eventually a landfill? my greenhouse far from helps the people in the middle east and there oil game. i can start plants much earlier in the season to get them established for a better crop, i start a lot for other people in the community as well so they don't have to go buy food either or at least as much. it also helps that I can grow food year around. If anything my greenhouse takes money away from those money greedy oil people and promotes a local system.

i do agree with you on the pre made greenhouses though, they suck for sure ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20843 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20843 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse that really had a relatively small amount of glazing I realized that (in the right location mind you) it could be done with rather minimal off site materials.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20844 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20844 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse might suddenly evaporate.  I too have seen a lot of time and energy wasted on ill-placed or badly constructed green houses, and the pest problems seem to get worse as time goes by if you don't pull everything out and fumigate every few years (so I've been told).

Do we all "need" to eat tomatoes and peppers?  The mindset of the endless, seasonless diversity of the supermarket can lead us to spend lots of energy, money, and time growing things that aren't even staples.  Is this what we should be doing if we are hot on the trail of more sustainable ways of living? 

That said (or maybe queried):  Greenhouses can be awesomely useful structures, and as temperate climate dwellers, we're totally building one as a lean-to structure on the south side of the garage we might eventually get around to building someday.  That location is the best for winter solar gain in the whole of our clearing.  I want to use water storage in some form for temperature stability.  We are talking about making hot beds for below-soil heat during the winter months.  We also intend to have a water garden greenhouse in the solar collection area of our actual home, still in the design stage.  I want to use recycled windows, no plastic with a 15 year life expentancy.  I've seen supermarket freezer doors being used for this purpose.....I think that's brilliant and am hoping that we'll stumble across something like that in our craigslist browsings between now and construction.  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20928 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20928 Re: greenhouse suck factor
that's only in greenhouses that don't have a natural system going on, a greenhouse can be full of natural pest control. i let the frogs and lizards do the job, and they get food out of the deal.


"I want to use recycled windows, no plastic with a 15 year life expentancy.  I've seen supermarket freezer doors being used for this purpose.....I think that's brilliant and am hoping that we'll stumble across something like that in our craigslist browsings between now and construction. "

we got 20 double paned glass doors from an old house that was being torn down. found on craigslist too so keep looking! it was cheaper and much better than having to buy greenhouse plastic. looks better too.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20930 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20930 Re: greenhouse suck factor eople `need` a greenhouse AFTER they have CHOSEN to make themselves dependent on it.Most here build with scraps/less.Low input dependence!Given the cultural possibilities,is it wise to create a future where you `need`industrial technology?Some greenhouses even require running water and venting mechanisms to function properly!
And yet after talking with greenhouse users,I relise that most people are marginalized to annual production by the current social structures(renters,profit orientation,moving for job ect...)and wether or not that is ideal is a mute point as little other options appear to exist for them.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20975 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20975 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Mt.goat wrote:
And yet after talking with greenhouse users,I relise that most people are marginalized to annual production by the current social structures(renters,profit orientation,moving for job ect...)and wether or not that is ideal is a mute point as little other options appear to exist for them.


It would be fab if everyone could simply live in food forests and have more than abundant food supply already at hand with just a little tending and harvesting required.

However, it takes a few year to really get a food forest going and during that process something like a greenhouse to grow the seedlings for planting in the food forest is handy.  It is also a handy place to grow many other things to fill out one's diet as they are working on the food forest.

Then there are the people who really do live in cold climates and the greenhouse might give them a pleasant place to tinker with plants and get a little sun while it is too cold outside to be doing too much.

Back to points against greenhouses.  Yes, we should all work on eating more locally grown appropriate foods.  I'm still trying to figure out what those are in my location and how to grow/store enough of them to keep for the year.  Most gardening books are definitely not about my climate and I've found even less permaculture information about what to grow in my climate and what little information I have found specific to my climate, I've had a very difficult time sourcing the plants. 

So to do away with all need for greenhouses is gonna take time or we will be putting many people in dire straights to take them away cold turkey.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20977 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20977 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse or or just wanted one because they are cool. I for one can get by just fine without mine, and have done so for years before i built it. as well as eating perennial plants and annual food that has been processed and stored for the winter from the growing season. but does a greenhouse help? of course it does, and it helps A LOT. with no energy consumption at all. you also don't need watering systems, mine runs off rainwater collected in the winter via gravity, no automatic vent openers or the likes either. it just seems like your putting everyone in the same boat(or the same greenhouse), when that's hardly true.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20988 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20988 Re: greenhouse suck factor Please answer my previous questions.
Has your experience ever involved cold climate gardening? What zone? and number of seasons in that zone?
If so at what altitude?
You claim ten years experience please identify your experience and timeline in differing regions.
Without your identifying those parameters I find it hard for me to accept your arguments as knowledgeable and valid.
At what point does fossil fuel dependence rear it's ugly head. Mt Goat you have indicated that you have a cell phone do you realize the impact that has, and the proliferation of cell phone use is dependent on the vey oil consumption that you find so abhorent. Further more the cell phone tower blight that is necessary to provide service. If your going to talk the talk walk the walk.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20993 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/20993 Re: greenhouse suck factor Im zone 6/7,have lived here my whole life(37yrs),grew up on a conventional,annual based homestead where we grew most of our own food ect..Last yr we had 6 ft of snow that lasted 3 months.Low elevation(250).
Did people EVER live where you are without a greenhouse?Given the genetic diversity we now have available,what is possible now?]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21006 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21006 Re: greenhouse suck factor I have identified the problem and am successfully using an alternative for my area. Seasonal extenders and greenhouses.
Again please identify your cold weather gardening experience. This would include altitude, time in a particular area, zone.
Your ten years of experience and timeline in different areas will help us in having a successful discussion.
I will gladly share my 20 years of cold weather gardening and my travel abroad and interaction with subsistence farmers in those areas. Once you identify your font of knowledge and its parameters of zonal experience.
Critique is based on having had experience, not having valid real time experience one can not give or have a debate that is fruitful.
A teacher can't teach unless they have knowledge on a subject, for the third time identify your experience.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21015 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21015 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21025 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21025 Re: greenhouse suck factor local zonal requirements.
I am walking the walk. I have real time experience and success. 
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21029 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21029 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse so I could get plants started for my garden, at the very least (like I've used recycled old windows here for cold frames).  I don't see any point in NOT using technology that's currently available, just because it wasn't available in the past and MIGHT not be in the future.  I'm no high-tech kind of person, and wouldn't use plastic since it doesn't last long and makes a mess when it disintegrates, but I would certainly recycle old windows and patio doors!

Kathleen]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21035 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21035 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Kathleen Sanderson wrote:
Every place that humans have ever lived, they've managed somehow without greenhouses. 
and they often suffered famine and the diseases that come along with famine.  We have huge numbers of people alive and living in densely packed places now so we have think anew about life in general if we're going to survive.
But, if I move back to Alaska, does that mean that I want to live on fermented fish and whale blubber like the Aleuts and Eskimo did?  (I'd be moving to a formerly Aleut area.)
with global climate change even the native peoples of most areas couldn't go back to their traditional ways of living and providing their communities with food.

  No!  I'm used to having some vegetables to eat that need a little extra help in that climate -- I would use recycled glass to build a small greenhouse so I could get plants started for my garden, at the very least (like I've used recycled old windows here for cold frames).  I don't see any point in NOT using technology that's currently available, just because it wasn't available in the past and MIGHT not be in the future.  I'm no high-tech kind of person, and wouldn't use plastic since it doesn't last long and makes a mess when it disintegrates, but I would certainly recycle old windows and patio doors!

You make a lot of sense. Things are very different for everyone now and to make things work we have to do things differently than before and invent new ways of living.  Here's a link everyone might enjoy.  http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/food-for-everyone/everybody-eats-how-a-community-food-system-works

Kathleen
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21060 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21060 Re: greenhouse suck factor trees,shrubs,perennials)or do you b-spend a few of the $ on annual seeds and the rest on a greenhouse?dooming yourself to each choices respective tasks for the next however long?Bow down to greenhouses at your own peril folks!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21063 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21063 Re: greenhouse suck factor
We have huge numbers of people alive and living in densely packed places now so we have think anew about life in general if we're going to survive.


well said!  And I agree, taking advantage of certain technologies now will probably not hurt us very much in the future, while making life more pleasant in the mean time.  I don't think that greenhouses are going to make irrelevant the incredible amount of food diversity and preservation knowledge available to us at this moment in history. 
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21066 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21066 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse would take mental and physical energy away from bringing in plants that are better adapted.As for the "huge #s of people in densely packed places"goes:you NEED a greenhouse AFTER you have chosen to pack yourself too densly or chosen to move into an uninhabitable area.If a person or culture chooses to base their existance around a technology then they will technicaly `need` that technology.Change starts with the choices in how we spend our time and $ that are made now!Just say`NO`to greenhouses!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21102 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21102 Re: greenhouse suck factor   Solar cooking nut uses her green house to dry their wood in and then has made another with an old dog pen and some hoops on top covered with plastic and grows tomatoes and dries the clothes in it .
  They can be used to sit in in winter if you provide them with chairs.
  I want some posts on the south fornt of my house and some plastic to put up so a green houe is formed in winterso as to use th ehot air in it to warm the house. If i got richer i would want to have a swimming pool in it maybe. Like larry hartwegs lovely ecological homes. look up Larry Hartweg abundant energy in harmony with nature. He comes from down florida way.
  You put some holes into the top of the wall of your house and get the hot air from th egreen houe coming in through the holes you diret the air through pipes to the back of the houe and down under your floors . . iIt will move back because of the tempratue gradient. maybe just a green house with the door between the house and the green house left open woiulkd get gets quite a lot of air running into your house.

  Making small rules no one can break but everyone is bound to break, allows people to dominate others . My brother in law had a rule about all the doors in the family house in the mountains. The kitchen door had to be kept open but not wide open, the door at the top of the stairs had to be shut, our bedroom door should, according to him,  have been left open all night. Everytime you went upstairs to fetch something from the sitting room upstairs he would be listening to see if you had shut the door at the top of the stairs  behind you, so if you thought i will just be a second getting that book or something of the sort and did not shut it behind you, it was, Rose you have not shut the door.
  Then it was Rose is a sociopate its impossible to live with her she does not shut the door .
  I used to be kept on the run all sunday  cleaning up the house while they bathed and read the papers and went to say good buy to their freinds and  Jose would look for some detail i had not done and use it to say i was selfish and it was impossible to live with me. such as  if i washed the ash rays and did not put them back in the sitting room. I am not your perfect houes wife but i was doing all the house work free. jose said he washed his own plate and cutlery it took him five minutes i was usually a good hour and much more in the kitchen.
    If you can do others down you establish your right to tell them what to do. For instance saying the rich work harder than the poor thats why they have to have more money , it is a lie often the poor work much harder than the rich but if you say it often enough you get believed. In that case it establishes your right to have more money and as a cosnequence  more education inclulding time to pass those exams you failed the first itme.
.One job of a boss is to be listening my husband listens while he reads when i clear up th ehouse on sunday in Guadaljara, if i make my self a coffee or stop for a moment his voice comes down the stairs Rose we are in a hurry. you can't have a coffee. agri rose macaskie.
  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21105 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21105 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse to connect home to barm so I do not have to walk in the snow to get from one to the other...greenhouse will be large enough for my fish as well as my plants.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21108 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21108 Re: greenhouse suck factor
However, most rules have a reason behind them.  I expect the rule about the door at the top of the stairs being closed was something due to temperature control in the house, if you leave it open all day, the head from down stairs all goes up and it gets hot upstairs or something like that.  I have rules like that as in don't leave the refrigerator door hanging open as you cook the meal, you should get out what you need and close the door so the rest of the food doesn't warm up and the energy is saved.  I'm rather strict about this rule since I'm the one paying the electric bills.  I also don't like when people open the doors and windows and then leave the heat or air conditioning running!!!

As to being dominated by others and their rules, well to some extent, it is you letting them dominate you.  Remember, you can set some rules too.  You can demand respect.  Guys don't automatically realize they are letting you do all the work, you have to speak up for yourself.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21109 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21109 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse discussion could be about any needless industrial product.I almost chose tractors but greenhouses have made the ultimate lightning rod for such a discussion because the holier than thou permi scene has an unspoken agreement about critiquing certain obviously ecologicaly unsound practices.Clearly Im in the minority here on this website but in my area,Im rather popular and my ideas are considered cutting edge(enough that we are planning a primitve/permi course for hopfully this spring/summer on my well established forest garden site).When I introduced myself and my interest in true sustainability/closed loop systems at the Bullocks course,many came up to me interested and obviously dissalusioned with the piles of outside inputs everywhere there.They dont have 10% of the perennial vegetables that Ive collected because they have irrigation and greenhouses so why bother! Of course with all those outside inputs,they have an amazing collection of marginaly hardy exotics wich outdoes most.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21110 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21110 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Some schmuck built a big house and a big barn here on opposit sides of the yard, we bought it...it snows here...think plastic quansit hut to connect the two (will happen to run north south).

The well house is there already so will be encompased so plumbing will be down to a minimum, and the power we use now to heat the wellhouse will instead go in to a whole system of food production (fish and plants with maybe small mammals too).

And on my 10 trips a day to the barn I will not have to walk thru the snow.  It will keep my house warmer and cleaner. 

What is not great about it  Cost? ....
Pish, it is worth what ever it costs.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21114 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21114 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse.  My chickens may even like a spot in there.  I am sure I am forgetting some finer details yet, but you all get my point I hope.

I still have to convince hubby to go as big as we can, as he is a 'greenhouses suck" sort a guy...but he sees why it is perfect here.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21115 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21115 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse connected to a structure is a fine means of supplementing heat in that structure.  I would have connected the new greenhouse to my house but there is a problem with the house right now (a tree fell on it).  In NY this spring I built a greenhouse 13x80 on the south wall of the horse barn.  Once covered, the temperature inside the GH hit 120 degrees-in the middle of April!  The windows of the barn were opened allowing the heat in the greenhouse to warm the barn and come back down to a reasonable 90 degrees.  Shut the windows when the sun goes down, the GH serves as an insulating buffer for the structure.
I put up a sign and ads on Craigslist and freecycle: Glass Wanted.  Let me tell you, the glass showed up, enough to cover 2/3 of the 8' high, 80' long south wall by the time I left.

A GH connected to a home can significantly reduce the fuel demand for heating that home.  Statistics show that as much as 1/3 of the heating fuel demand can be eliminated with a GH covering 60% of the south wall of a structure.  Someone burning 9 cords of wood in a season would only need 6 cords.  I'm sure the trees and woodland ecosystem are thankful.  If the heat is oil, 1000 gallons being reduced to 670 gallons more than makes up for the petroleum inputs in the construction materials, and thats just in 1 season.

Ive used my GH for drying laundry during the rain.  I've used it for housing chicks until they are large enough they can't get through the wire fence in the corner of the yard.  I've not used it for drying firewood, but have extensive notes to that effect.

Before I had a GH I was able to produce plenty of food in my garden.  I had a full and meaningful life.  I was at peace with myself.  Now that I have a GH, none of this has changed.  However, there are some advantages found since I built the first one. 

I use my GH primarily for propagation of seeds and cuttings.  I can get hundreds of plants started in a small space.  I can repot the seedlings and keep them growing until they are about 6" tall with deep roots.  If the plants were in the beds, I woulduse considerable water maintaining soil moisture levels.  Being in containers and in a small area inside the GH, I can water hundred of plants with just a few gallons of water.  This means reduced energy demand for water pumping, and reduced water consumption from the worlds already stressed water supply.  I also use less seed since the germination and survivability rate is increased in a controlled environment.  This means less shipping of mail order seed and the diesel fuel consumption that goes along with it.

Since I am able to raise such a copious amount of vegetable plants to such a size before transplanting, the time the plants spend in the beds is reduced.  In the backyard I can raise crops all year.  Instead of 4 crops in a year, the GH gives me a turnover rate of 5 crops/year.  This means hundreds of square feet of land that does not have to be cultivated.  It can be left in its natural state.  I get all the fresh vegetables I can stand, my neighbor too, and minimize my strain on the ecosystem.  Imagine!

The new GH I'm building is 9x12.  I'm salvaging as much material as I can from the old one which was 8x8.  The new one will be large enough to put in a tank for raising catfish.  I also intend to raise redworms.  The worms consume waste of all forms-grass clipping, peelings, coffee grounds, newspaper, and some chicken poop here and there.  The worms feed the catfish, the catfish feed me.  The water from the catfish tank will need to be changed, about 1/3 of it each day.  This will be directed to the garden for a nitrate rich irrigation supplement.  The tank will help maintain the temperature inside the GH, absorbing heat in the day, giving up that heat at night.  Guts and fishheads will go to the chickens, reducing their feed requirement.

My GH offers numerous advantages that I did not have before.  I could get by without one, but for the same productivity, I would use more land, more energy, more water, more time, and the local landfill would be overflowing into the next county.


]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21149 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21149 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse in with their house.  Please do careful research into the humidity issues that could be involved.  This will be affected by climate.  Where I live, there are few heating days per year and thus a greenhouse is not going to benefit your home much on the comfort side of things.  So definitely careful thought and research must be done on that front.

kpeavey,
Research aquaponics for a possible way to reduce the water change needs of the catfish tanks.  I've been raising catfish quite well in my side yard using aquaponics, very good eating catfish is.

And as for feeding the heads and guts to the chickens.  Mine love the guts and eggs but are not nearly so quick to tuck into the heads (hard to get much off them with only beaks as tools.)  You might look into a BSF bin for processing the fish heads into handy food for the chickens and fish.

As to feeding the catfish worms.  That is fine for a supplement to their diet but I think you will need additional fish feed to round it out.  I think worms and BSF larva are both a bit too high in fat to be the sole food for catfish or tilapia. 
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21158 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21158 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse look good!I also agree that if a person chooses to create a culture around nutrient and disturbance demanding annuals,they will feel better about using less space and have higher yields in a limited season by using a greenhouse.In short,I believe it is possible to create such an inefficient culture as to make the addition of greenhouses look good or like a necessity and that industrial product fetishism marketed as being more ecological has as its only defense,an improvement over even more wastefull practices.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21191 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21191 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I haven't caught up on all of this thread, but I feel I need to express the following right away ....

I think your concerns about the validity about many of mt.goat's posts are valid.  Especially when you work in some of the qualifications you seek.  And especially again, when you work in the way that mt.goat makes his statements. 

I pointed out that some of the statements used were ... uh .... possibly more provocative than accurate.  It seems that mt.goat mentioned that he would try to rope this in a bit. 

So, while I think mt.goat has a bit more roping in to do in that department, and I would really like to see him qualify his statements more to be with my comfort zone as site admin .... I would also like to personally vouch for some aspects of mt.goat.

I have been to his property and I have visited at length with him. 

I would go so far as to say that he is an expert eco builder.  Perhaps he will post pictures here some day.  I would also say that when it comes to edible perennials and permaculture, he is, again, an expert. 

I would say he is a trailblazer in the world of permaculture.  On even more topics than I have so far mentioned.  I would also say he does make a lot of personal sacrifice for the sake of his experiments.  A lot. 

And .... there is a flip side to this ..... while I hold his permaculture accomplishments in exceptionally high regard, there was at least one time where his .... uh .... choices ... in combination with how he communicates ....  left me where I had a powerful urge to punch him in the mouth. 

It is my impression that mt.goat understands my .... uh .... discomfort.  And I sincerely believe he is going to great lengths to make me more comfortable. 

I think I normally would not want anybody, especially myself, to suggest publicly that anybody on permies.com is anything less than perfect.  But I get the impression that mt.goat is of such a powerfully strong personality and so dedicated to a better path, that he would be okay with this.  (and if I am mistaken, I will remove this and apologize profusely to him)

All of that said, I would like to again ask that we all refrain from suggesting that anybody on permies is anything less than perfect. 

And now ..... there is one other moderator-ish point I would like to make. 

If somebody were to say "nobody  ________" and there was one case where that statement was not true, then that somebody has just presented false information as fact - thus throwing everything else they have ever said into the world of having a certain level of probability of also being wrong.  After three of these, it gets to where you just can't even read anything that person posts. 

But the statement "I think nobody ________" is always true.  Others can think something different.  But if a second person says "That's not true", then the second person has just presented false information as fact. 

Qualifying one's position can make a really big difference between a yammering nutjob and a reliable source sharing some excellent wisdom.

I think that the information in this thread is very good.  I also think it could use ..... some cleaning up.  I would like to ask everybody that has posted something in this list to take a look at what you have written and consider editing your post.  Let the final, polished thread be a demonstration of good, healthy communication.

Please?

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21220 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21220 Re: greenhouse suck factor Your original premise was that 18% of greenhouses might be useful, do you agree that in some instances greenhouses are a useful tool?

It would be helpful for all of us to refrain from speaking in absolutes. But successes and failures.
There should be no need for Paul to have to edit what should be a learning tool.
 
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21265 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21265 Re: greenhouse suck factor Jokes aside though,I agree with you that a person can not totally judge anothers survival stratagies for their location.Permaculture is not about following a template but about everyone doing the best they can where they are at.Thanks for playing a staring role with me on this thread.The ideas fleshed out through the discourse would not have been possible without you.I will avoid critique of greenhouses on any other thread than this one so it is not you personaly that I mean to attack.PEACE.mt.goat]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21276 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21276 Re: greenhouse suck factor I've no need for  a greenhouse, but got a great education pro and con, and a belly full of laughs for the evening.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21286 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21286 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I can say I'm not offended by anything and I'm hoping no one was actually offended by any of my comments.  Lively discussion is fine.  Hopefully people can take a step back and not get too wound up.  I don't think anyone actually meant to do more than get people to think.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21294 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21294 Re: greenhouse suck factor local sustainability show. My local library will be open next on tuesday and I will be able to print it out then.If you m]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21312 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21312 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21316 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21316 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I think the whole thing about buying a greenhouse is feeding the oil industry and, thus, harming everybody is true.  BUT!  And this is a big but ....  this is true for damn near every purchased product.  Therefore, this issue is far better for another thread than for this one.  While the point is valid, it is something that is a perpetual dilemma for myself and .... everybody participating in this thread - because if you are using the internet at all, you are feeding that same beast.  Therefore, I must move my personal greenhouse or not decision forward with this being one factor in the decision, but by no means the only factor.  Further, this factor would probably not have as much weight to me as ROI. 

While I know that mt.goat has reduced his use of stuff (therfore, oil) far more than most people, I know that he is not completely weaned.  I think he is blazing an excellent path for the rest of us.  And, while I applaud his efforts to tell us about this path, and I appreciate learning how to improve my own path, I do feel uncomfortable with anything resembling condemnation for not being as far along this path as others.

I think it would be great to have a thread about "the eco path" and we can talk about what one might find further and further down the path, and we can also talk about path velocity and how to improve the velocity of others.  Etc.




]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21359 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21359 Re: greenhouse suck factor
The validity of my points is revealed through the popularity of this thread.


I'm gonna say that I think this connection is .... less than accurate.  I think the validity of your position will stand on logic and reason.  The popularity of the thread is, IMOO, not connected. 

Paul
Your original premise was that 18% of greenhouses might be useful, do you agree that in some instances greenhouses are a useful tool?


Yes!

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21367 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21367 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I deleted a couple of small things - nothing serious.  Most were either small and off topic, or they were about the cleanup.   

This has taken me about three hours to clean things up - mostly reading every spec of everything and thinking about "should I move it?" and then learning that splitting a really big thread is a lot of tedious work (split the thread fragment, then move the new thread to MD, then merge the new fragment with the old fragment).

Thanks to all the folks that cleaned up your own posts.  That made my job a lot easier.  I hope that this sort of occasional cleanup helps to set a precedent so future folks will have an idea of how we do things here and, they then follow the precedent, thus leading to less cleanup. 

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21369 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21369 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.archisacres.com. ; they offer hope to people who may have little if any left.
My friend in Ripton has an insulated green house she grows salad in year round in a mountain climate where that would be impossible otherwise.  the food she grows helps her live better as she was diagnosed with brain cancer and after chemo(is that how you spell it?) the organic food helps her feel better and the excess is sold in shops all around Addison County.  This one person probably feeds about 100 people a week and keeps herself alive doing it. Keeps her farm economy going too. She grows in insulated radiant heat pits directly in the ground so the additional heat requirements are minimal.
On the other hand there's a gigantic glass greenhouse in Shelburn, Vt that grows the best tomatoes you ever ate but they pump so much propane heat into it during the winter it doesn't seem sustainable to me but the technology is changing all the time and we're getting smarter everyday about how to build and maintain them.
I have an attached greenhouse on my solar underground house here that keeps my out door plants alive year round and gives me a cozy place to start my sets in the late winter and it adds some heat to the house on sunny days.  Being attached to the house it doesn't require any additional heat and it provides and air lock between the house and the out doors reducing the air infiltration to the house. It's a good thing.
so, I guess I thing greenhouses are good things when properly built and used.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21382 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21382 Re: greenhouse suck factor

Back to greenhouses.  Well I suppose the amount of thought one should put into deciding if they are appropriate to an individual situation could be quite a suck factor.  As with all things, careful weighting of the options is important.

Now I'm hoping Mt goat will share with us some of his methods and successes at finding/planting perennial edible plants for his place (please include details on the location/climate too.)]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21383 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21383 Re: greenhouse suck factor perennial edible plants for his place (please include details on the location/climate too.) "

i second that!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21397 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21397 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I have an 8X6 greenhouse frame on the southeast side of my house and when the ice melts and falls off the gutters above they come crashing down hard. Luckily I don't have any plastic on there yet 

I figure I'll mitigate this by putting wooden boards across the danger zone.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21533 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21533 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21550 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/21550 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I think the whole thing about buying a greenhouse is feeding the oil industry and, thus, harming everybody is true.


Ultimately, manufacturing of glass or plastic ( or aluminum framing ) all feed the beast.  But the larger question is not the 'one shot' feeding of the beast at the point of erecting a greenhouse, but the incremental starving of that beast over a period of years as the greenhouse 'pays back' the initial investment so to speak.  Granted that some greenhouse owners continue to feed the beast forever ( i.e. the commercial tomato operation in VT ) ... but I for one refuse to do so, using my greenhouse only for a moderate extension of the natural growing season without the aid of active heating.

Agreed that siting of a greenhouse is probably the #1 up-front consideration.  This is not only hugely important in regard to direct sun in the spring and fall, but also important in regard to winter / storm damage survival !!!

Following on, greenhouse structure selection is probably the #2 consideration.  Again it is important to consider what sort of wind loads / snow loads the greenhouse will need to survive in a particular area.  Because of my northern NY location I opted for an interlocked PVC frame design that is stiffened by the use of small steel wire stays ( which function like ersatz roof trusses ), and it has repeatedly survived 3 feet of winter snow on its 'roof'

Type of glazing is probably the #3 consideration.  As others have posted, there is an inverse relationship between the light transmission properties of the glazing and the heat retention properties.  Also, different types of glazings are more or less susceptible to impact from storm-blown branches.  Because I'm in a stormy area, and because I do not intend to try and actively heat my greenhouse for year round use, I opted for single thickness polycarb on the sides ( for maximum light transmission ) and double thickness polycarb on the 'roof' ( for a bit of nighttime heat retention improvement, plus some moderation of maximum mid-day greenhouse temperatures in July / August when the sun enters at a much higher angle )

Again following on the maximum temperature aspect, as others have posted, greenhouses are famous for 'baking' plants in July / August.  Thus no matter what sort of greenhouse you are considering, it is absolutely essential to include automatic ventilation.  Not only should this include automatically opening / closing vents ( driven by wax capsule cylinders, bimetal arms, whatever ), but should also include an active thermostatically controlled fan.  This isn't to say that such a fan can't be powered by an alternative energy source, but even if it's conventionally powered the energy usage is tiny compared to the 'insurance' value it provides against 'baking' of greenhouse plants.

Related to the 'baking' potential, it is absolutely essential that greenhouse plants have enough water retention to ride through peak July / August afternoon temperatures ( even if those temperatures have been lowered from 120F to perhaps 105F by automatic vents and fan ) without dehydrating.  This leads to consideration of an automatic watering / misting system, or the use of deep beds / so-called 'self-watering' pots.

And yes, as others have posted, even in northern climates there will probably be 1-2 weeks in July / August when a very high outdoor temperature plus a cloudless sky will result in more solar heating than even an automatic vent and fan system plus an automatic misting system can handle.  For those occasions, it's simply unavoidable that a partially translucent cover be thrown over the top of the greenhouse to partially block the direct sunlight.

In regard to a greenhouse being 'separated' from nature, this is indeed a plus as well as a minus.  Personally, for my own greenhouse, I have commandeered an old computer science theorem of 'garbage in = garbage out'.  As such, I raise every single plant seedling that will eventually wind up in my greenhouse from seed ( via my attached sunporch and LED grow lights in Feb / March ) using sterile potting soil. 

Yet another consideration for any greenhouse is pollination requirements.  Because the greenhouse is going to cut down drastically on the natural insect population, either you have to do manual pollinations, or you can try adding a few insect attractor plants ( like bee balm and dill ) inside the greenhouse to pursuade a few helpful insects to come in through the greenhouse vents.

Obviously I'm not a permaculture 'purist' ... but I try to do the best I can while dealing with the realities of my northern NY climate.



]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/23022 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/23022 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse to extend your tomatoes into November - December in the north, my way is cheaper - err - more frugal...

Pull the tomato plant up out of the soil and knock the dirt off the roots.  Then just hang the plant upside down on a hook in a cool place out of the sun.  I have done this in a backroom on the east side of the house and had very good tasting tomatoes until mid December here in Michigan.  I should add that I left the basement door open a bit just so it never froze in the backroom.  I'm told sweet corn can be done in the same manner, haven't tried that yet though.  Try one plant with green tomatoes on it this coming fall when the season is over and see how good it works out.  Can also be done in a cool basement I'm told.

On the greenhouse, I would like a portable for use only in the spring for my starters.  I would prefer plastic that could be stored when not in use extending it's years of use.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25649 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25649 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25668 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25668 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Tomatoes, off the vine, in December, in Michigan, with no green house - that's seriously awesome. 

I've read about (in the book Root Cellaring which covers techniques of food storage way beyond a typical cellar) the "forcing" of lettuces in a cellar over winter.  Harvest the first crop of leaves as you would all summer, then cut them entirely, dig up the root ball in autumn, and completely bury the thing to a depth of 6-8" of sand in a crate, and store in a cellar/similarly cool but not frozen place.  By about January or February, leaves will have sprouted all the way up through the sand, and you'll have a whole new head of lettuce.  So the book says anyway, but I've had such good success with escarole and endive resprouting after being hacked that I feel it would work really well.  I'll let y'all know, when we have a cellar in which to do things like that.  (next winter)]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25682 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25682 Re: greenhouse suck factor
It's also the way purslane is harvested as a staple crop: the plants are cut and hung up over a cloth, and they flower and produce seed all from stored water, then drop it onto the cloth.

I bet it's a technique that could be adapted to quite a few other plants.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25695 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25695 Re: greenhouse suck factor tomatoes ripened.  It was not that bad as I just clean them up a couple times a week.  Every tomato ripened and was good with much more flavor then store bought.  I also start (small plant) cherry type tomatoes in the south facing kitchen window for a little bonus during the winter.

I store squash, potatoes, and onions in that backroom all winter and control the temperature via opening or closing the basement door according to the temperature or the expected temperature at night.  I have a thermometer in there and on some sunny days it  gets a bit warm.  Doesn't effect the veggies enough from what I can see as they are still good in the spring.

For sweetcorn I'm told you pull the entire plant up by the roots, knock off the dirt, and stack them in a corner of the basement.  Maybe this year I'll give that a try.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25711 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25711 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25860 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/25860 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Greenhouses really increase productivity, if done well, they are a fantastic technology, like crop rotation, and not one we should throw out just because people didn't always know about it.

The problem isn't that 82% (Paul's number) of greenhouses shouldn't have been built, it's that 82% of greenhouses should have been built (and should be used) better.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35889 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35889 Re: greenhouse suck factor tomatoes out of them..that does work.

but back to the greenhouse suck factor.

my greenhouse has sucked bigtime this spring  ..AS.. I had been planning on moving it all winter, and this spring couldn't get the help i needed to move it so it sits empty..bigtime suck factor.

we have an area of property where we have pex buried for wood heat, and overf the winter that soil around the pex did NOT freeze, at all. The  snow melted on top of it quickly.

SO

we decided to grade an area flat over the pex and move the greenhouse to sit on that nice warm soil...the grading got done back in April..however..getting the greenhouse moved to the graded area...NOT SO MUCH !!!

I'm furious with my men..well my husband with the head injury has his excuses and son working 67 hours a week most weeks lately  has his too..but comeone..it will take about 1/2 hour !!!

anyway.

my tomatoes and pepeprs are in the food forest garden, suffering some but are there. I have a whole list of seeds that i want to put into my fall / winter garden and some of them will require being planted in July but most in August to be growing well when freezing temps come..so i have to get that greenouse moved, the soil prepared and the plants planted in the next 4 to 5 weeks..soooooooooooo...i'm gonig to get tough with they guys over memorial weekend..when they not only will have time off, but they will have neighbors here from Detroit to help

yeah, it is really disappointing to me that i have nothing but some herbs from last year growing in my greenhouse, and some lettuces and swiss chard and arugula around it..as well as a few herbs..but..i will get it moved if i have to drag it down the hill through the mixed bed and around the woodshed all by  myself.

up date to follow, hopefully with good news. Here is the list of the seeds i have now that will be going into the greenhouse this fall: (faith)gobs of mesclun, lettuces and mixed baby greens, spinach (2 kinds), swiss chard, mustard, broccoli, 4 kinds of carrots (just a small amount of each as i'll have some still under mulch out int he garden if the deer don't dig them up), 2 kinds of kohlrabi, 2 kinds of chinese cabbage, 3 kinds of radishes, 2 kinds of peas, brussel sprouts (might not have time for those in there but there are a few in the garden), and some onions, chives, and other herbs transplanted from my herb garden..esp my rosemary as it won't survive outside in the winter here..and i might dig up a couple of tomato and pepper plants and move them in there if there is room. Also considering some more tender crops as i saw a zone 5 orange in a catalog i would love to try in my greenhouse..but we'll see, also wanteed a fig but not sure i'll get it this year.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35896 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35896 Re: greenhouse suck factor alot of our food needs in a much more ecological way without greenhouses.We now have access to more plant species than at any other point in history.There is unlimited potentials to produce more food in different ways than current meathods.The dicotomy of hunter gatherer vs.techno industrial civilization doesnt exist for people who can see these unlimited options.I like to think that permaculture and these forums are a place to explore models that offer an alternative to mainstream unsustainable models.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35902 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35902 Re: greenhouse suck factor feed hundreds of millions of people inexpensively, antiquity is germane to the argument.

Sports stadiums are needed (and I say that as someone who never ever watches sports, because I find them so damn boring) because people need entertainment, and one big stadium that seats 50,000 takes up much less space than 100 small stadiums that seat 500 each ; and mountainsides are very unproductive with out things like greenhouses on them, plus we do want to leave some surfaces wild. The solution to many of our food woes will probably be for people to set up greenhouses in their suburban lots, and sell plants to their neighbors, getting 2-4 week head starts on the growing season and producing large quantities of food where lawns once stood, no matter how long a growing season is, if it has an end a head start helps produce more food. Treecrops produce prodigiously, if sporadically, but they aren't for everywhere, just like a greenhouse isn't a good choice for a forest.

There are a wide variety of different ways to make food, unlimited options as you say, but don't limit out this option. Greenhouses have a lot of benefit in a lot of situations. Here in Anchorage, AK where I live a there is game (moose) and there are wild berries and fish, but the native peoples did not farm, because the season is too short for most things, but with a greenhouse (or cold frame, row covers, or other forms of mini greenhouse) huge vegetables can be grown, Alaska holds several world records for vegetable production, largely thanks to greenhouses and the like, they turn a risky proposition into a big win, and really reduce the amount of oil used moving veggies up here (and yes, the forests would be cut down and the animals hunted to extinction, again, if we immediately rejected all oil products). Greenhouses aren't a small step in the right direction, they are a big step, and if they are unsustainable it's over a time period of several thousand years that that will become apparent, right now we should be building them as a bridge to a more sustainable world, building them and using them well.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35918 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35918 Re: greenhouse suck factor tractor through it fine. With proper fencing, it could keep any farm animal through the winter easily. cover crops could keep quite a few animals over winter for a family quite easily. 20' by 50' gothic arch and 25' by 200'.

These are for the size much cheaper than a glass greenhouse, but we must replace the plastic every 5 years, less if it tears...


But if you can grow vegetable crops well and sell them, these things are always sound investments in the world of capitalism.

Hey isn't there a government grant out there too for first timers?
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35930 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35930 Re: greenhouse suck factor Really the greenhouse is best in my opinion for overwintering things, not growing things.

People claim greenhouses block the ability of some plants to produce some nutrients... any structure we build will ultimately block some form of light from the sun am I not correct? I would think it would be ideal and beneficial to open up large portions of the roof to the sun during the warmer months and warmer days. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35932 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35932 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse..

sure a greenhouse may not be an ideal answer..but if you can eat homegrown rather than storebought in the winter..it doesn't completely suck]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35987 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35987 Re: greenhouse suck factor I thought this thread was dead...
As I said earlier a greenhouse is a tool and if you use it where it's needed how it's needed and when it's needed it doesn't  "suck".
When a thread starts out with a negative title or less than positive premise it takes me out of that zone of perfection.
  It does however make for a lively discussion.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35990 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/35990 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36005 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36005 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36007 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36007 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36013 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36013 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36014 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36014 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse last year (tall hoop style).  I live in a northern climate and I use it to start plants and to extend my garden season.  I also use it for my chickens.  In the fall I let the chickens in to clean, till, etc. (chickens are great gardeners .  I also use it in the spring as a place to finish raising chicks.  Admittedly a greenhouse is not natural, but it can be multipurpose and diverse.  It also increases the growing season (thus the ability to eat local longer).  For these reasons it is a valuable part of my farm.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36070 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36070 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse industry.Personaly,Im trying to grow food sustainably for myself and perhaps close relations.I do see though that if a person wanted to support/become dependent on an industry,that greenhouses would be a better industry than the many worse industries.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36072 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36072 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Here in the tropics, bananas, plantains, camote (like sweet potatoes), lima beans, amaranth, peppers, carrots, black eyed peas, okra, culantro, basil and a local squash, papaya, mangos, star fruit, oranges, limes, grapefruit - so easy to grow it is disgusting. I actually have so much okra right now that I am getting sick of it - and that never happened in New York when I lived there!

Cauliflower, broccoli (with decent size heads), swiss chard, summer squash, green beans, peas, tomatoes - growing them will break your heart (at least I don't do well with them)

If I am looking for a challenge, I try to grow those things that I love from the north, making sure I have plenty of the others so we won't starve.

A greenhouse might well be the same situation. It is very nice to be able to have fresh veggies year round - but it sure is going to cost you a lot of work - and resources. Freezing and canning might well be easier, and more sustainable.

But I rather doubt any of us avoid trying to introduce some variety to our diets - only natural.

And I will continue to try to grow decent tomatoes which nearly kill me in just starting to change - and then rotting. 

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36075 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36075 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable industry (we make it much better now) after fossil fuel use ends. Though we have only been making sheet glass for about 1000 of those years that is well before the use of fossil fuels (and one of the only non-death inducing technologies to come out of Dark Age Europe).

Yes it is useful for growing annuals better, or for getting more fruit from small trees, or keeping small trees and bushes north of their zone. Trees aren't enough, trees wont be enough, we will always need veggies too. Trees of all sorts have constant pest problems, from chestnut weevils to fluffy tailed rats, some of them are fairly easy to deal with (shoot the tree rats and eat them) some, like fungus, are not. As the concentration of the trees rises you will hit a critical density and pests and disease will rise, robbing you of your trees (which take lifetimes to grow in the first place) and leaving you hungry. Now I think we need more trees, I think trees are great, we also need diversity of trees and bushes, but we need annuals too. Diversify, diversify, diversify, the first rule of sustainable profits in business is diversification, the first rule of sustainable foods in permaculture is diversification. Plant trees, and grow a garden, and keep some animals, and a pond with fish if you can keep it. Something will always fail, and the penalty for failure is starvation if that is all you are growing.

You should also learn about The Red Queen Effect, which is the reason annuals are so valuable, especially if you diversify.

Edited to clarify: If you have the room to grow planting trees and digging a pond in addition to growing your garden is a good idea, as a society we need diverse food sources, and we shouldn't discard any based on prejudice, however, if you are growing, you should not spend inordinate amounts of your time making everything you might use from scratch, a small stockpile of materials and knowledge(books) isn't necessarily a bad idea, but trying to do everything yourself is. Nature will not make room for you to live, it takes a lot of work to make a place for our selfs, just like the deer have to spend all day looking for the best food in order to survive.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36076 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36076 Re: greenhouse suck factor
He also raises pigs, and I want nothing to do with pigs - but I like pork. He couldn't grow a vegetable to save his life though - and has proven it more than a few times to my satisfaction.  So I grow the vegetables and we share. He also can't seem to catch a catfish, even though the pond is stocked with about 500 and I get 3 to 4 in 10 minutes without even trying.

We share skills and resources - and therefore do much better. He bought the milk cow because I have no idea how to judge one, and probably bought it for half the price I would have.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36079 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36079 Re: greenhouse suck factor With a greenhouse in my current area with careful planning and dedicated effort I can harvest almost year round. Without a greenhouse I can not. so we are looking at 10 month of production versus 3.5.
Careful selection of plants that require or come to harvest early or are frost hardy is required.
The greenhouse attached to my house assists in heating the house during the winter and is where I do my starts for raised beds and  main greenhouse. While the starts are going in the attached greenhouse potatoes, carrots, radishes, greens are already going in the main greenhouse. New potatoes will be ready by July 4th for potato salad. Once their gone starts are ready to put in.
To be able to grow melons last year was great learning to make them climb and not take up too much  growing room was an interesting challenge.
I still love my unsucky productive greenhouse.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36080 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36080 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36081 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36081 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Mt.goat wrote:
well said Fred!I also grow some stuff thats more demanding for comfort foods although I dont pretend its sustainable.Generaly,the majority of my vegetables have been replaced with wild foods just because its so much easier but also because I dont like having my food system dependent on industry.High degrees of specialization is neccessary for civilization.lots of fun as most people with jobs can tell you.I was more refering to scale of specialization.Village scale(self sufficiency was probably slightly incorect term)vs industrial civilization scale.As we move toward the latter,our dependence increases and I prefer less of that.


I am still trying to figure out how to grow a chocolate chip cookie, but no success so far.  ops: By the way, I have two greenhouses, but they are to keep the rain out so I can control fungus, etc. Aside from construction costs, which are very low, there are no on going costs.

In fact, there are no costs since the greenhouses are really used for our plantations to raise tens of thousands seedlings per year. And at that time, they have screening, so that the seedlings won't get fried.

To present the other side - as fuel costs increase, the cost of a passive greenhouse in the North might well be worth it, instead of having to figure in the cost of transportation for substandard veggies.

My view of permaculture is to try to do the best you can, but start small and improve, always seeking to get closer to completely sustainable - but just like dieting, sometimes you just have to grow a chocolate chip cookie... (there is no brown sugar in Costa Rica, so no way to make homemade chocolate chip cookies - but I can grow my own cacoa... )]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36091 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36091 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I have been diagnosed as prediabetic and am changing to severely low carb eating..and i am amazed at how the change in what i am growing and eating has changed.

I find right now that the hugest part of my diet right now has been the wild greens that come naturally in disturbed soil in my garden...lambsquarters. It is a low carb green that i totally love and i've been going out and picking that, spinach, swiss chard and green onions and making one meal a day out of some sort of green to help to balance out my blood sugars (now if hubby would just let me raise my own eggs and meat !!!)

I am a little confused as to what to grow since i have just spent the last two years buying every fruit and berry crop i have been able to buy and fit into my space, but now fruits and berries are a bit iffy on my diet, i'm sure i'll still eat small amounts of them..but not like i used to ..i was a big fruit, whole grain and vegetable person. I did go ahead and plant the beans peas potatoes and corn, even though i'm not sure i'll be able to eat them when i harvests them or not, but I am leaning now toward my greenhouse holding a huge fall garden of greens and salad plants as well as other low carb vegetables to help me with my shoppping costs for the fall and winter..as these will be the main sources of my meals until i can get this prediabetes under control.

i believe i will be much more dependent on my greenhoue now as well as of course my low carb over winter storage in ground vegetables like the jerusalem artichokes.  I am having to retrain my thinking and my gardening and my cooking and eating..so i see my greenhouse for this fall in a whole new light]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36119 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36119 Re: greenhouse suck factor

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36127 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36127 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Burra wrote:
Brenda - you might have to control your fruits, but you'll find that berries are nice and low carb.  You won't be able to pig out on them, but a handful is going to be able to fit in with virtually any low carb diet.  Not only that, you can have them in a bowl and smothered in cream... 




Heck, smothered in cream is even better, because the cream slows the uptake of the glucose and prevents an insulin spike.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36148 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36148 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Also, it has been suggested by more than one person in the thread that a GH may not be 'permaculturally correct'.  Nothing could be further from the truth; it's a theme that runs all through the literature.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36174 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36174 Re: greenhouse suck factor permaculture,the two are often distincly different which begs the question of how permanent an unsustainable model actually is.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36198 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36198 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable, well hydrogen might be, but in truly deep time I suspect that even that will prove unstable. The universe will eventually reach its end, either in a slow creeping cold death, or in a hot steamy gnab gib. If it is the latter I'll see you guys at Milliways.

Back on subject, even if you postulate that, in a thousand years time, we won't have fusion (which would take us for at least another 200,000 years as a species, given our current exponential growth rate in power consumption) green houses will take a whole lot less of what ever form of energy we are using to run our civilization than the alternative, so long as they are being used well (which probably means more of them per person than we have today). It's good that you have the kind of space and climate where you can depend on it to provide most of your food sustainably* but really you ought not to look down on people who are being more sustainable than average, and may be indefinitely sustainable, and doing it in a different way than you are. If everyone had to live in an area that could support them like yours supports you then everyone would move to such an area, and you would no longer have an area that can support you because you'd be sharing your acres with 30 other families from the city.

Even if you were living with no fossil fuel or oil or mining or any products derived from those practices you are still only as sustainable as civilization, because you are not the biggest man around, and a bigger man could take what you have if not for civilization holding him back with a chain and a feed trough.

*until a wild fire eats it up or a fungus attacks it]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36201 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36201 Re: greenhouse suck factor Sustainable doesn't mean a wink when all the resources are being drunk up by insane mindless children with giant straws.

I want to create something that can support me and the ones I love through to a time I won't be alive anymore.

Perhaps people with guns will come and take what I love. Perhaps the good people out there will help me and others and there will be a happy tomorrow.

I can't see the future, all I can do is build. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36232 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36232 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36236 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36236 Climate Change tomatoes in the ground but it stayed above freezing by a degree or two.  But we've also had 90' days recently, far too early in the season.  Huge temperature swings wreak havoc with vegetable growth cycles.  Plants will bolt or wilt on you.  Heavy winds can also do damage.  And greenhouses have fewer animal pest problems.

Vegetable gardening is always going to be an intensive endeavor.  It is not against permaculture to grow annuals.  Annuals are just supposed to be closest to the house where they can be maintained by hand.  Look at earthships, for instance.  The greenhouse and the passive solar design are merged into one.  But obviously not everybody's in a position to have an earthship.


Using flimsy rowcovers and hoops might seem cheaper, but in my experience it just makes it hard to get in and water and the coverings just blow off in the wind and deteriorate.  And to whatever extent these coverings act as a greenhouse, you have very little control over maintaining a steady temperature as opposed to a greenhouse with automatic openers.

My backyard is heavily shaded by the house in the winter so I have been on the fence about whether or not to invest in a greenhouse, but even if it were not receiving enough sunlight to extend the growing season through the winter, it might make sense in order to moderate the ever more frequent weather extremes in the spring and fall.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36243 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36243 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable culture.Ive found the best way to discover cultural alternatives to industrial technologies is to avoid them.So while not getting the immediate gratification,one pioneers new life ways.Dependence on industry is a very vulnerable position these days IMO.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36246 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36246 Re: greenhouse suck factor feed a civilization is sustainable in a good way. If there is no big "S" Sustainable solution then it will involve a civilization, hunter gathering (like living off of native trees and weeds) Can Not support a civilization, ergo it is not Sustainable. Greenhouses need some energy and some sand and some wood to make for the most part, more energy and bauxite ore if you want it to last a bit longer. Energy is the only one that isn't available in a superabundance (or renewable pace) that can be used sustainably for the next few million years. Now, even if we don't have another ladder to jump to to make lots of energy available a greenhouse is still an energy capturing device. It makes solar radiation useful both for home temperature elevation as well as for human and animal consumption and composting/burning.  A family can theoretically subsist off of a tenth of an acre of intensively farmed land with a greenhouse with very few inputs (using humanure), can a family survive off that huntergathering? No, they most certainly cannot.

It takes land and energy to make and gather food, no matter what, Greenhouses will be a part of any capital "S" Sustainable solution, Huntergathering in the wild may not be. I sure hope it is, but of the two comparative modes of living greenhouses (done well) are more sustainable, not less.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36278 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36278 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Mt.goat wrote:
Ive found the best way to discover cultural alternatives to industrial technologies is to avoid them.So while not getting the immediate gratification,one pioneers new life ways.Dependence on industry is a very vulnerable position these days IMO.


It's all about priorities.  How many people here would intentionally make things more difficult for themselves by avoiding the use of greenhouses but have no problem logging into the internet and posting on the forums?  To me, that is misplaced priorities.

Appropriate technology, folks.

If you read any Bill McKibben, we're no longer living on Earth.  We're leaving on Eaarth, a planet that is more hostile to us, due to our influence.  Tools which can smooth out some of this variability are a good thing, IMHO.

Presumably, people's first priority should be survival.  Good earth-stewardship is a close second.  I have no intention to significantly reduce my survival odds just to score eco points.  Even in the best of times in the past, crop failures and famines were a routine occurrence.  Globalized food, as dysfunctional as it may be from an energy usage perspective, is a hedge against crop failure.  When food becomes exclusively local, it will also be vulnerable.  So homesteaders will have to use all available tools to protect their crops from failure.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36280 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36280 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable??Anyway,I grew up with greenhouses but moved away from them because they made my life harder.Eventually I just ate feral domesticats and wild plants.Ive been eating 3 huge servings of greens a day since feb. and will until oct.(lambs quarters are almost big enough!)I still grow some storage root crops for winter(Im zone 6/7).So I basically gave up on greenhouses because they were so inefficient and with no running water(infrastrucure costs $ = get a job= not very efficient)it doesnt make sence for me to usurp natures functions. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36298 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36298 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable unless it can feed civilization ?therefore we must continue to use unsustainable practices to be sustainable?Personaly,Im not trying to solve the worlds problems here just lessen my dependence and support of industrial pollution ect...The planet has limitations and feeding everyone wont help them figure that out but I do believe we could feed everyone using techniques like multistory production models which are proven to produce more food per square foot without as many outside inputs but require a skilled population to manage and cant be mechanized so thus are not implimented. Options abound beyond convention.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36301 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36301 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I would be fine with it if people were only aloud to have one child for a while. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36306 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36306 Re: greenhouse suck factor
As for civilization, why don't you ask the next mammoth you see how great it is to have tribes of man running around? Oh that's right, because Man killed them all out. How about the next panda you see, ask it how much it wants to shuffle off the constraints of those damn representatives of civilization known as the WWF and be left with the peasantry?

Civilization is the leviathan that keeps man in line. With out it, we show how truly nasty we can be. Civilized life is just a prelude to the collapse, look at the most ecologically degraded places on the planet, 99 times out of 100 civilization has collapsed proceeding the event, the other 1% is legitimate environmental catastrophe, typically associated with inelegant legislational loopholes (Oil spill in the gulf), Fracking stupid labor management policies compounded by extreme wanton incompetence (Chernobyl), mistakes are made, but the biggest mistake ever is not having anyone there to discourage huge environmental risks from being taken, only civilization can look out for its own best interest and exert power over the risk takers.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36310 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36310 Re: greenhouse suck factor I like this temporary set up. I can open the ends on a warm or sunny day to keep the veggies from cooking right there in the ground. As the days become shorter the plants don't grow very much but seem to be "on hold", staying nice and fresh for daily consumption.
Where I live spring is brief and HOT. So fall plantings and my little tunnels are the only way I've found to enjoy broccoli, peas and spinach. I'm still not sure a greenhouse is what I need so we'll see if it ever gets built. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36750 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36750 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is made of polycarbonate and extruded aluminum..

anyway we had 34 degrees this morning and there is a frost warning tonight..and unfortuately my greenhouse is empty as i have been begging my family to help me get it moved now for 4 months..and it still isn't moved..although the land where it will be moved is still prepared and ready for it.

so yeah..big suck factor here this year..hopefully my garden will be OK]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36840 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36840 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36843 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36843 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable options!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36848 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36848 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable than using lots. Its a complex picture and ignoring it and just rushing ahead is the plan that got us into the mess. I'll restate that in case you didn't get it, Oversimplification is responsible for the problem, more so that oil, more so than deforestation, more so than extinction, its a complex picture and ignoring that my saying the same simple thing over and over again is not the answer it's the problem.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36851 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/36851 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37076 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37076 Re: greenhouse suck factor
paul wheaton wrote:
I think that a greenhouse is an excellent idea for about 18% of the greenhouses that exist.   The weird thing is that so many greenhouses strike me as stupid.
Last year I was asked for my advice on a greenhouse location.  These people had dreams of eating veggies in the winter.  I pointed out that the trees to the south were conifers that were so dense that their greenhouse would be in the shade all winter.  They labeled me a "negative nelly" and built their precious greenhouse.  On a bright sunny day in november at about 10:30 in the morning I pointed out how their greenhouse was not only in the shade, but it would be lucky to get 15% of the available direct sunlight throughout the day.  And it would only be worse for the next two months.   
A similar thing a few years back.  With similar outcome. 
I suspect that half of all greenhouses built are built in the winter shade.    And the days are already so short then - blocking even half of the light is gonna make for a really lame crop.
Another thing about greenhouses is that you have split yourself away from the eco system.  By having a greenhouse at all, you are filling in the position of mother nature.  Everything that mother nature does to keep things in balance, you now have to do.  So when fungus or bugs or anything gets out of hand, it is now your job to deal with it.
I guess I felt the need to start this thread because everybody knows the upsides (food in winter) but very few people appear to be aware of the downsides.  Deep understanding of the downsides helps to mitigate them or at least decide to not put a lot of money and effort into something that, in the end, won't be worth it.
Just because I may be a negative nelly doesn't mean that these issues are less true. 
Anybody else have greenhouse issues that they would like to warn future greenhouse builders about?


Your list of stupid things about greenhouses I think conflates to a couple of more basic truths.  First, the idea of the natural benefits of seasonal and geographical eating.  It's the idea that it must be 'intended by nature' for, say, the Inuit of the Yukon to eat mostly blubber in the winter to increase bodily warmth, etc., and for the Amazonians to eat fruits and leafy things in the tropics to disperse heat in the body.  It's the notion that there's a reason that certain foods grow in each season. 

Maybe instead of building a greenhouse it would be far healthier and 'meant to be' to build a root cellar to store vegetables the same way nature 'stores' them naturally in the cold winter ground when we do not harvest beforehand, or to use a cold frame to modestly lengthen the growing season of autumn root vegetables and get a head start on early-spring vegetables.

Second, part of the stupidity of greenhouses may be the fact that we think of them as greenhouses instead of multi-function houses.  We build them separate from the house when they should be right up against the south face of the house as a passive solar heater and recreational sun room/enclosed porch and storage room.  As such, it may be a perceptual problem that prevents us from thinking about them more creatively and openly.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37091 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37091 Re: greenhouse suck factor For the naysayers be open to the idea that in some instances a greenhouse properly used could be a good idea.
For those that think an aboriginal existence is the way, just back how far on the aboriginal learning scale are we talking? Rock and loin cloth?
We're going to see some reduction in industrialization in the future but we aren't going all the way back in time, there will be a knowledge base that will exist from whatever stupid industrial unsustainable ideas we have utilized up to now.
A greenhouse may very well not be for you but for me I have proven it to be a reliable tool in my climatic area.
Summer solstice coming up think, I'll drink some wine and dance naked in the unsucky greenhouse  (fewer skeeters).



]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37093 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37093 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Brenda Groth wrote:
Ok it was just said that having a greenhouse isn't Permie..well the first book i ever read on permaculture..many years ago showed sketches and had info on building greenhouses..and was the first place i ever learned the idea of a chicken heated greenhouse..

The book was "Introduction to Permaculture" Bill Mollison..If you go to the Index you will find these references..Greenhouse as a cooling device page 82, as a shower area page 74, chicken heated page 153,essentials of 80 - 82,in cold climate 112 - 114,siting of 64,

pages 81,82 (window),107,113,116 (coldframe), show beautiful line drawings of use of greenhouse or other glass areas ...and this was one of the original permaculture teaching books.

so I don't understand the statment that greenhouses aren't Permie..that was one of the first impressions I got from reading the book and i had just purchased my greenhouse a few years prior so i was thrilled at more information on using it on my property.

Actually this book was my only information on permaculter for a long time..and i found it fascinating and very helpful even though it was not written for our climate i was able to adapt it to my climate by using the common sense information that was available in it to make a lovely property here around our home..it also encouraged me to glass in my front porch and to provide a shade porch on the rear of my house that we put in after the housefire..using the common sense beliefs and adapting to the climater here in Michigan


Yeah, that's where I first saw it, too.  It was amazing how much utility he could get out of one of those things.  It completely changed the way I thought about greenhouses.  I still think of that as the ideal, although for one reason or another it's hard to achieve that ideal.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37094 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37094 Re: greenhouse suck factor
TCLynx wrote:
Think of a greenhouse as a tool that if the collapse happens, may not be easily replaced but that does not mean it shouldn't be used while it is available.  Heck, what if a climate shift happens along with the collapse, having some greenhouse plants might suddenly make you the new provider of suddenly climate appropriate plants.  But for most of us, a greenhouse is often a place for starting nursery stock and other things that need closer observation and attention.


Good point.  Regardless of other factors, it can be a terrific insurance policy against all kinds of unwanted/unplanned things that can happen in an outdoor garden.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37095 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37095 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Robert Ray wrote:
For those that think an aboriginal existence is the way, just back how far on the aboriginal learning scale are we talking? Rock and loin cloth?
We're going to see some reduction in industrialization in the future but we aren't going all the way back in time, there will be a knowledge base that will exist from whatever stupid industrial unsustainable ideas we have utilized up to now.


Are you familiar with Roy underhill? He does a Show called The Woodwright's Shop on PBS where he does traditional woodworking with old tools, but modern adhesives. I took a workshop from him a number of years ago and he regaled us with an anecdote about this: Every once in a while someone will call or write to complain about how his show is supposed  to be set in the past but he uses modern adhesives that weren't available before the age of oil, his reply is that his show is set in the future. But even looking at the woodwright's shop you will see many tools that were made with coal power, which arguably is much worse than oil power from an environmental standpoint.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37097 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37097 Re: greenhouse suck factor There is no reason a well crafted greenhouse could not do the same.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37100 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37100 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Well, I deleted stuff again.  I guess this thread is a sort of anger bait. 

I would like to remind folks about my sensitivities to what "be nice" means.  And that suggesting that anybody on this site is anything less than perfect is gonna get deleted.  And this includes qualifying other people's statements.  I think it is fair to say "my opinion is the opposite" but a statement that says "your statement is false" will only get deleted. 

I would also like to express my gratitude to those that can continue to travel a smooth path when others are not.

Thanks!

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37121 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37121 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Mt.goat wrote:
The complexity is what civilized people use to hide the true costs of their consumption choices.Our inability to quantify and understand the effects of our actions is the smoke we hide the ramifications of our actions.A close relationship with the earth should be simple.It isnt but I believe the ultimate affect of stacking functions should be to simplify not complexify.IMO greenhouses complexify by furthering dependence on the complexity that is industrial civilization.


Why would civilized people use complexity to hide the truth when it is many orders of magnitude easier to rail against complexity and then proceed to ignore all of the factors that do not fit an a priori view of the world? Arguably that behavior is what got us into this mess, burning oil wasn't complicated it was simple, burn the oil, get energy, use it. It wasn't until the complexity of the situation and the gases in the air were studies and accepted that it became apparent that there was a problem, or the complexity of the logistics of getting oil if peak oil is the concern.

Ignoring complexity in order to pass off a politically expedient point as a universal truth is the hallmark of such pillars of intellectual integrity as Glen "the government is out to get you" Beck and Andy "conservapedia" Schlafly. The world is more complex than we could ever hope to understand, lifetimes have been spent studying water, one of the simplest things there is, and still every year someone discovers something new about it.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37140 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37140 Re: greenhouse suck factor     I agree that if we don't have rules we will be back where we where when King Arthur had to set up the round table to save damsels and poor villagers from the dungeons of unreasonable overlords and civilization as it is now is better than having none with its terrible faults, not civilivation as it is if we obey the religiouse  trying for their own laws. I saw a program on some today, they get really heavy on others, and simplify soem things to the point of getting very cruel on some point while they are maybe better than governments on one or two others they are impresionantly tyranical.
      I agree about us being mutually dependent and I agree about complexity, i have met those who want to simplify and some very important points started to get missed out, humans are so clever and also o given to getting their knickers in a twist, I think it is our cleverness that makes us uncautiouse so then we confuse everything and allowing simplicity guarantees that we humans stop even trying to bring all the points that bare on anything to bare on it .
        I have a friend who says we are clever because we had to work out all the complex thoughts of other humans. so as not to be killed by them i suppose. We can manage complexity  we were given a brain we don't need to simplify. One of the things we are worst at is seeing that the other person has a brain too.
  Sometimes those who ask for simplicity are those who want others to leave every thing in their hands. I have met those with a very complicated network of arguements to back up their own points of view, a network of arguements that was in no way inclusive of all points but cleverly allowed them to argue anything they wanted, ask other to be simple, clever gambit.

  Also, If i understand it right part of a gurus message is people are complicated so you need not get bored. THat goes for things like agriculture to .as far as I'm concerned. You just try to throw your weight into things instead of being passive and simple,. By which i mean pull your weight and events will get complicated which will stop boredom ever coming to your door, and this seems to be an interesting point. agri rose macaskie.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37259 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37259 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?contentidonly=true&contentid=2009/12/0617.xml .  Lots of hoop jumping (punny!) but depending on your state you can get most of the cost paid by the gov'ment (in their infinite wisdom) of a fairly large high tunnel/hoop house.   I've so far manged to span the hurdles but am still wondering if I want such disposable tech... and this is coming from someone who lives in a greenhouse with an attached house (yeah the greenhouse is >10% bigger).  Currently I'm still leaning toward yes. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37267 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37267 Re: greenhouse suck factor
rose macaskie wrote:
     Its strange i agree with Emerson White on this thread, i have been disagreeing with him on others.


I was bound to get something right eventually  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37269 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37269 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse requires availability of water and maintnence/temperature control.Each activity has time and money costs=get a job=life isnt simple anymore.I have only this phone bill,work a job rarely and still grow a large portion of my food.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37289 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37289 Re: greenhouse suck factor sustainable food growing techniques that you can feel good about and enjoy.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37290 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37290 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Water is needed for any food production.
Initial maintenance is a factor of developing any food forest or permaculture plot.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37308 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37308 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37313 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37313 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37317 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37317 Re: greenhouse suck factor Without my greenhouse I'd be sad indeed. Berries have been bitten by the frost a bit but not too bad.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37439 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37439 Re: greenhouse suck factor   i have been worrying about agreeing with fred morgan about humans being mutualy dependent We are usually, that is a buddhist tenant,it also seems fairly common sense  but it gets to be a problem in agriculture.
      If Fred grows the feed and another keeps the pig then the closed sustainability circle will come undone, the manure  the mashed up and enzymed plants that new plants need to grow, which is the animals return to the land of what was taken out to feed it, will be on the pig breeders land and the veggies on Fred Morgans and this on a big scale is one of the reasons factory farming is disasterouse.
      Too much muck  in one place poinsoning the drinking water because too much manure for the land is more than the lands bacteria and plants can manage so the run of from the manure and modern manure is also full of the medicine that pigs are continually fed with because they are so strained living in close quarters that they get endless illnesses and are just kept perpetually full of antibiotics, and maybe hormones too to make them grow bigger runs into our water system. The wetness in the enormouse quantities of manure of a factory farm leach into rivers and poison drinking water.
      The farmers have no use for the manure they no longer grow their own feed and they would not have so much manure if they did because they would not be capable of growing enough food for that many pigs, the factories bring them cheap feed. so the manure just collects on their land becoming a health hazard.
        The stench of the manure makes the price of nearby houses drop and spoils the health of the village. An example of a factory farm was the one in Mexico was it where they said the pig flu started and the neighbors were complaining about that. The many cheap pigs created in these places mean that the locals can no longer sell their pigs . The factory farmer employed by the big meat company to run their enterprise on his land has a mercedes and others loose their jobs.
    This division of labour also means the hay somewhere else gets poor, becomes the poor thin hay that Susanne Munroe talks of farmers  having, the manure, the mashed and enzymed organic matter from plants, which in the normal course of things would be expelled on the feild the pig lived in, can get so far from the  farmers that grow feed that they dont even bother to try  get it back. rose macaskie. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37578 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37578 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Robert Ray wrote:At what point in time does technology versus simple living kick in?


Schumacher did a lot of pioneering work on this. It's a fuzzy line, but on the one side of it are tools that amplify a person's capabilities, and on the other side are machines that set their own pace and demand to be cared for.

Robert Ray wrote:Water is needed for any food production.


I believe he meant running water. There are definitely methods that limit consumption to precipitation + field capacity.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37891 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37891 Re: greenhouse suck factor   Draft animals are a tool that requires maintenance that would be possible should easy oil and fossil fuels availability end.
Using the land to harvest water and the input required to achieve that isn't a simple endeavor in some cases but definitely worth the effort.
A simple life doesn't mean an easy life.
Greenhouse glazing is not a technology that requires modern industrial technologies. Though not perfect Romans used windows at 100 A.D.
A greenhouse is a tool and when looked at in that light its use is either a prudent and intelligent choice or it is a useless extravagance.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37931 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/37931 Re: greenhouse suck factor  
  I want more technology, when the multimillionairs have made energy saving car that iis energy efficient and s a hybrid in the same quantities ford made cars in, I shall believe in their charitable intentions. Global warming will hurt the poor, the subsistent farmers will have to change and they are likeley to be less flexible than the modern world, they don't have so many agricultural advicers or money.
  When farmers they have stopped leaving land bare for a year as it is left fallow and started using cover crops for the year of rest, which crops will  that absrb carbon and protect the earth from the sun so the land does not heat as much, keeping things cool must help a bit with global warming, if their isnot as  much heat around that can't get past the global warming gasses that reflect it back again it must be better.
  The billionaires could produce free cover crop seed for the third world poor farmers  would want to put it on the land covercrops better soils so if they are free there is everyreason to use them.agri rose macaskie.  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38005 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38005 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is a tool.The tools production has an enviromental expense.The tool has the potential to mitigate for this expence.Is it posible for this tool to ever mitigate for its expencce.Does choosing to eat greenhouse dependent crops make up for the tools ecological expence?I would agree that in some very marginal areas for human existance,perhaps.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38013 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38013 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Emerson White wrote:
Self sufficiency is both wasteful and impossible. Humans evolved to get along with each other, especially where trade is concerned, because the humans who didn't died out. If you want to die out then yes aim for total self sufficiency, but Adam Smith made a very solid case for specialization.


That was and has been true, no doubt.  But actually, self sufficiency is becoming less and less wasteful, more and more possible, and easier and easier to achieve.  To a certain extent that's scary, too. 

First, people are becoming less connected to and less dependent on social/emotional/religious networks, as Robert Putnam's book, Bowling Alone has documented.  Lots of social statistics demonstrate and support this.  Second, technology, such as solar/wind/hydro-electricity, cheap sand-point well drilling and rainwater catchment, the Internet for dissemination of information and education/healthcare and self-care/entertainment, mail order shopping, increased longevity free of disease, have all contributed to self-sufficiency and independence.  The availability of rural land and the increasing ability to repair denuded lands, not to mention permaculture techniques, all contribute to it being easier than ever to live a life free of/devoid of a web of obligations.  Single-parent families will also increase as it becomes less economically necessary to be partnered.  When I was in Japan I had read about rural guys who reported being perfectly content with simply a rice cooker, washing machine, automatic tea kettle, computer, and high-tech inflatable doll (hard to get women to live a rural life there).  It is taking, and I think will take, less and less money to live such a life.  I suspect that the trend is very much heading in this direction and even accelerating.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38028 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38028 Re: greenhouse suck factor How to measure a greenhouses impact made of re-purposed materials? Do reused materials have a half life of some measurable ecological rad?
Does the measure of not having to produce the material being re-purposed have an ecological plus?
I think the mythos is a simple life is easy, A simple life is not an easy life as those that live by farming or ranching in rural areas well know.
Extending a season isn't necessarily bringing in exotics or non natives but just giving a boost to local production length.
Creating a suntrap requires effort, tool usage and would create the same question on the tools production, suntraps creation and their ecological expense/mitigation.
In some cases a greenhouse is an intelligent choice in its creation and use.
I hypothesize that the dense urbanization and those living and drawn to temperate regions like the West side of the Cascades does far more ecological harm than my small greenhouse in rural high desert Oregon.

  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38030 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38030 Re: greenhouse suck factor Greenhouse discussion please.
Inflatable companionship would certainly require the use of mideast oil. A definite misuse of resources in my opinion.
I hope Paul would support  a don't ask don't tell stance on this. If he doesn't please at least don't tell me.  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38154 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38154 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I moved one of the other posts to MD.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38157 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38157 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I won't claim that these will be truly sustainable structures.  they are really a testament to my own weakness for foods that would be very difficult for me to grow without a greenhouse.  if I were a better human, I would just give up those foods for any of the incredible selection of food that will grow easily where I live, but I'm not willing to do that.  I'm greedy for the flavors I like.  given that fact, I do believe that my habits will have less impact if I grow the food myself in a carefully designed greenhouse instead of paying to have it imported from far away lands.

so I guess my greenhouses are really about mitigating the negative impacts of my own bad habits.  taking care in their design will mitigate the negative impacts of the greenhouses.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38159 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38159 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38162 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38162 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Mt.goat wrote:
Enjoy The pvc glue!


I'm greedy for flavor, but I'm not a monster: no vinyl of any kind for my greenhouses.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38165 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38165 Re: greenhouse suck factor
tel jetson wrote:
I won't claim that these will be truly sustainable structures.  they are really a testament to my own weakness for foods that would be very difficult for me to grow without a greenhouse.  if I were a better human, I would just give up those foods for any of the incredible selection of food that will grow easily where I live, but I'm not willing to do that.  I'm greedy for the flavors I like.  given that fact, I do believe that my habits will have less impact if I grow the food myself in a carefully designed greenhouse instead of paying to have it imported from far away lands.
so I guess my greenhouses are really about mitigating the negative impacts of my own bad habits.  taking care in their design will mitigate the negative impacts of the greenhouses.


I sympathize.  The optimal, ecologically-correct thing to do would be to develop a taste for termites, maggots, grubs, slugs, etc., all of which can be eaten, not to mention many of the plethora of [s]weeds[/s] 'field herbs' that graciously populate our gardens.  But as the Food Network chefs would say, "Flavor is king." 

Of course, the problem with that is that 'flavor' depends on taste, and taste is to at least some extent culturally specific, and can also be learned, trained, can evolve, can change gradually or abruptly, can be imitated, sometimes respond to bodily changes, etc.  So I guess you get more permaculture points by persuading yourself that local pests are actually delicacies, but we need some joy in our lives, too.  And there is also educational value in knowing and appreciating what ginger and saffron taste like even though they're not native/local to most of those who post here.  It's a conundrum.  I think Mollison's solution is convincing; i.e., of using greenhouses to grow exotics where necessary.  And even if you buy into the health benefits of eating seasonally and locally (of which I do to a great extent, albeit without much scientific evidence) I think the benefits outweigh the detriments of allocating a percentage of our diets to exotics.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38169 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38169 Re: greenhouse suck factor     Most other bits of technology that improve my life were just there when i was born, it seems that if I am used to something i don't feel passionate about it, so in order to get excited about  it needs to be something you did not have before and  now have.  Apart from computers  Clean energy is the thing that made me consciously keen on technology, passionately interested in it.
  If i were to think i could never have a green house it would be a sad idea though i donwould not kill myself for one, i have good memories of green houses.
    People have been talking about pollution all my life, it is a permanent worry, so it is great to think that energy can be produced without smoke.

    Green houses can be used as pacific, solar energy, heating your house, systems, You take the hot air from the top of the green house  into your house. The window of your green house has to face  the low winter sun, the south, for heating in winter and the green house should have a roof that reduces heat loss ,  with a big overhang to stop the summer sun over heating your house in summer.The sun in the south is high in the air in summer and so would not shine into the green house ..
      You can find out about that use of energy in the site -abundant  energy in harmony with nature-

        It sounds great no one using energy and everyone living in the wild but i can't imagine how it would work, there did not used to be so many people around in the old days.
i approve of suggesting permaculture for those who would like to live in the country but not everyone will want to .
     Imagine knowing the energy was clean you could have air conditioning and put the heating up as high as you wanted, You would not feel bad about traveling around all the time etc. the technology for clean energy is great. 
 Today a man on CNN was saying that each town ought to be drawing up a plan for how to have its own clean  energy and drawing another plan for how soon it can get that going, Great. agri  rose macaskie.

   ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38171 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38171 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse because I live in a hot climate (Central Texas).  But others up north might benefit.

http://www.solviva.com/]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38180 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38180 Re: greenhouse suck factor
early in the thread, paul wheaton mentioned hoop houses on commercial farms.  I've got some experience with those.  built four of them: 20' x 95', galvanized steel pipe, single-layer of polyethylene.  actually, built two of them twice.  the first two were knocked down in a nasty flood.  the second two will probably be knocked down in the next nasty flood.  the extra produce, mainly tomatoes, produced in these houses paid for their direct cost in the first year.  externalities are much harder to calculate and I'm sure the full cost would take quite a while longer to pay back.

a couple years ago there was more snow than usual in the Pacific Northwest followed by some heavy rain.  hoop houses all over the region collapsed under the weight of the wet snow.

so, there you go.  a couple more greenhouse warnings.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38256 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38256 Re: greenhouse suck factor   My house attached poly carbonate panel greenhouse has had over two feet of snow on the panes with no sign of failure. I do rake the snow off of the structure. But just about everyone rakes the snow off of their roofs during the winter here. There has been snows heavy enough to collapse garages and houses. If I were not to be home during the winter there would be problems.
My hoop house has survived the same snows but it is buttressed internally, because I am aware of the danger. The internal structure allows the hanging of my hydroponic troughs and a skeleton for secondary covering  for winter protection of hardy plants (ala Coleman).
One good thing about living on the top of the hill is that flood danger is relatively remote.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38257 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38257 Re: greenhouse suck factor I am on top of the hill front back but not left right the hill is higher than my house on one side it is a ridge. agri  rose macaskie.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38512 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/38512 Re: greenhouse suck factor permaculture is no exclusive club
permaculture has evolved to assist the world, its main tenet being a pragmatic approach handed down from bill mollison, if it works well it becomes part of permaculture (bill still reads 30-40 books a month)

on a far lighter note let me tell you about my greenhouse
it will be a place to meditate, to read, to enjoy the foliage, to propagate, to experiment, to develop,and to warm adjacent buildings... but the most important part is this....

it is an observatory ! (yes an observatory within a conservatory)
our friends family and clients will be able to sip local grape juice whilst reclining on a heated cob bed gazing out into the northern sky (apologies to upside down americans and others) where a wonderland of galaxies will tell them or no whether I have cleaned the windows lately!!
viva all things good!
http://www.gardenfarm.biz/rocket.htm
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/47069 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/47069 Re: greenhouse suck factor cob village the houses in it seem to be made according to the ideas that you find in the site  "Abundant enregy in harmony with nature" they have big window i suppose facing south that will catch the winter sun light and a big overhang on the roof to stop the hot summer sun that gets up high in the sky from coming in and over heating the house in summer. Since i read about his idea of getting the sun to heat you in winter but not in summer i have noticed it is true the midday sun in the south is very low in winter and would come in your windows and in summer, it is way up in the air and shines on the roof as much as on the south side of your house.
  i looked a cob village again recently after reading someones discussion of how sepp Holzer makes alcoves in rock tha ttrap the sun, to look again at the alcove in the wall in cob village inside which the temperature can be thirty degrees hotter than outside i shall correct this tomorrow i have to check that out and it is hard to judge distances in a photo the sort of alcove without a roof did not look so very deep but the man walked into it and he took three big step into it . Sepp holzer has made some with the rocks on his land where he can grow lemos, right up in the alpes, impresive . a lot of facts here to check tomorrow, rose. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/47080 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/47080 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Yes, but which job is being done well? (Rose does not live in the US, so the farmers she is talking about may or may not be relevant to your contentions.)

Here in the US, you can indeed claim that US farmers do produce a lot of potatoes and corn. But whether it is done poorly or not depends on your definition. If all you are concerned about is tonnage of salable product, you are leaving out a lot of things that are also important, like soil and water conservation and toxics buildup.

Doing a job well does not mean that the job is worth doing in the first place.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/49938 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/49938 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I would like to thank one the long time participants of these forums for clicking on "report to moderator".

This is just a reminder about "be nice":  If even one word is what I think is less than kind, I will delete the whole post.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/49940 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/49940 Re: greenhouse suck factor ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50003 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50003 Re: greenhouse suck factor   Sweet carrots and fresh beets will be on the turkey day menu.
  Heads of cabbage little bigger than a soft ball right now I see Kim Chee in my future.
I love my greenhouse. Unusual this year but gladiolas are in full bloom right now in the greenhouse attached to the house, they probably won't last too long.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50012 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50012 Re: greenhouse suck factor
jacqueg wrote:
"you can't fool a potato or corn into paying you for a substandard product or a job done badly."

Yes, but which job is being done well? (Rose does not live in the US, so the farmers she is talking about may or may not be relevant to your contentions.)

Here in the US, you can indeed claim that US farmers do produce a lot of potatoes and corn. But whether it is done poorly or not depends on your definition. If all you are concerned about is tonnage of salable product, you are leaving out a lot of things that are also important, like soil and water conservation and toxics buildup.

Doing a job well does not mean that the job is worth doing in the first place.


Absolutely, I agree. It's all subject to definition of job well done. I didn't know Rose didn't live in the US, but having lived in a few places around the world I find Farmers to be at least intelligent if not optimal at all times, hardly a group of less than intelligent people than average, especially on the subject of farming. I mean they are not up on the latest cool language on the street for sure, but that's hardly a meaningful marker of raw intellect. Farmers who own their own land & have for generations heartily agree with you on the subject of toxic build up. I know they are constantly looking to replace what farming takes out. Crop rotation tech & supplemental elements are constantly improving. Sad thing is we learn from screwing up. Soil Science now understands what a few decades ago was almost completely unknown. Unfortunately there are still idiots & unscrupulous short sighted people involved in farming. That's more an exception all the time.

The US sends food around the world, the job those farmers do literally stands between many people around the world & starvation. In that light best yield seems to be pretty important right? Not that a different system may not be better still, but it's usually bureaucracy involved in government backed loans they are pushed into that stifle innovation rather than the farmers themselves.  Russia just had a terrible plague of fire I think it was, and much of their wheat yield was was destroyed. Without high production many would starve, actually many will starve, many do starve, we just don't hear much about it and what the actual causes are.

My father farms about 80 acres & grew up farming much more : ) which gives me a bit of insight into that world. I just ate a bunch of his pinto beans from this year, an hour ago. Man they are good!

Dad has 150 IQ, he's brilliant in many ways, but there is always someone who knows more about something. He's also a Contractor. The guy is an idiot as far as making money, but in growing things, taking care of animals & building the guy is a genius. He's not in boring intellectual company among farmers.

I grow on a small scale for myself & whoever I give some to. I am totally organic, I make my own compost & I use activated compost tea. I harvest my own seeds & start my own plants. I like heirloom stuff, even grew tobacco in Idaho (though I don't smoke). I plan on a heated dome to grow year round & some plants from warmer climates, when I can get it together. So obviously I'm more into the small optimal growing situations, than large scale farming. I also see miles upon miles of farm land & I don't see how the world could be fed by people who do their little thing even on numerous acres. As far as wheat & corn & other staple crops for the world I don't think I could do it much better as far as quantity, even on a small scale. I would love to see more people grow food though. Every little bit people grow eases up on the world supply that much more, and I've a feeling we are going to need all we can do. I'm constantly trying to get more people involved in growing food in stead of so much grass.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50184 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50184 Re: greenhouse suck factor
paul wheaton wrote:
I just deleted a post here.  I read about five words in the first sentence that were suggesting that somebody on permies.com was less than perfect and I didn't bother to read one more word before deleting it. 

I would like to thank one the long time participants of these forums for clicking on "report to moderator".

This is just a reminder about "be nice":  If even one word is what I think is less than kind, I will delete the whole post.



I've been checking out this forum to learn more, and I'm really digging what I read. A lot of really good leading edge stuff here & the environment in the forum is very nice. I took the words I responded to a little personally because I know many farmers, my father farms & he or they are not anything like obtuse idiots. I get where I went wrong, and like I said the forum has a very nice atmosphere, and I'm sorry I detracted from it with my first post & that it was motivated by aggravation I let get away from me, as much as a wish to add my personal perspective so the poster would maybe take that into consideration on the subject.

Anyway, you have an amazing forum here, so much sweet information I've been hungering for. I was very excited to find it. I love to experiment & grow. I hope I can add something good here some time.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50186 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50186 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is a tool.  When used correctly it is very helpful.  Any tool can be abused, overused, relied upon as a crutch.  As a food producer i want more people to buy goods at a community scale.  Part of my strategy is to have a wider selection of goods available year round. Mobile unheated high tunnels let me achieve this.  While people are at my stand they also have a change to purchase lambs quarters, dandelion roots, wild berries and countless other edibles that if offered alone would draw a much smaller crowd.  Is it leaning on foreign oil of course it is.  I'm looking into designing a movable greenhouse that is made from reclaimed glass its a challenge , but i see it coming in a few years.  I typing this on my laptop and you folks are reading this on your computer,phone, ipad etc.  On a scale of environmental damages in the long run I think my electronics are way higher on the list if not at the top.  But they are tools and we have convinced ourselves somehow that they are okay.  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50264 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50264 Re: greenhouse suck factor       I did say in one post i did not want to ask the neighbors how to do things. For one if you plan on trying no dig and mulching things that they don’t do, it is a bit uncomfortable asking them what to do.
    For another I know people know lots of things that can be useful but I find other adults so unwieldy, they don’t just tell you things, they want you to think like them and if you don’t they will start to menace you, or go through your husband to try and make sure you do what they want and other such tricks. They push and shove me. I am so tough on these forums that it is hard to imagine a different me but I was incredibly soft before. It takes a long time to get people to see you differently and start to treat you a bit bettern some say tha tpeoploe treat you better if you are nice if you are too nice you get turned into a door mat. 
     The toughies call you tough while they shove you around, I don’t know how they can’t see that you are not good at shoving back but while they wrap you round their little fingers they give you a bad name as a bully. Bill does that in the film Kill Bill, in all the scenes beatrice Kiddo  is the one who is deferential to him and looking for love, while he is off hand with her. For instance when she says wistfully, “when shall I see you again” he says "that was a song I used to like in the sixties”. He does not mind being separated from her for a year or two or leaving her with a murderouse assasine and yet he has persuaded his brother and friends she manipulates him. It is always a good idea to reduce the person you want to push around’s credit and what more devilish way of doing it than pretending you are reality the one who gets pushed around. You can tell who has got the credit, they are the  ones who get the support though they might look like the weak ones and if they get the support and have always got the support and go on pretending that their partner is the one who steals credit, there is some reason to wonder if they are honest. Bill gets the support in the film s.kill bill two.. 
      Men are always saying it is their wives that push them around when usually the power is in the hands of men, more money and more choice of where to live and who to meet because society does not criticise them for insisting on their own first right, second and third right, in choice of friends and districts, and as they were the ones who had to earn money that made sense.You stay were your family and friends are or your best work interests are and that gives you a lot more power than your partner has to decide on the way of life you are to live. I am sorry if men are offended but htey have called us scoldes and the weak sex and silly and frivolouse and such for centuries so i think tha ta bit of intersex bickering is the norm.and they can't ask us not to join in.
    That was a good idea when men  were the only ones that earned the bread but it is a cruel reality for their partners, survival choices often being cruel,. Choice of friends has to do with psychological realities like if you are shy you may want to be with quieter people, or less pushy ones or being with noisy ones is an agony because you think noisy people are tastless and feel your  life is to be wasted on loud mouthed goofs such as me . So making friends with someone elses friends is emotionally hard. Your choice of friends helps with your business and with your power in the family, if they are your friends they back you up not your wife. WIth all this power men take most of the important decisions the decisions and their wives are left scolding impotently which makes the wife look like the bossy one.
      It is a big sacrifice to try with another persons group of friends, we have to find money and look after children which leaves most people with little time to spare and if you want to keep in with any group you need to give them a fair amount of time so if you give that time to your husbands friends the possiblility of getting to know those you would like to be with is greatly reduced. If you are a farmer and spend time with other farmers you will hear their knews about farming and learn more, that goes for all professions, knowing the right people gives you power. I dont mean diabolic power just enough to help you on. Not doing so leaves you very vunerable. 

      Also, when you try and find out about gardening from neighbors, they tell you some things and not others, which is easier to manage on you tube than in real life because in you tube  you just look through enough different peoples bits of advise in a short time to cover the whole theme. I don’t believe in casual conversation as a method of learning or not at least from scratch, at least not in Spain, if you have alternatives. Talking to others to get information has, until now, been tough that is the bad thing about it not the potential of the ohthers to understand that has been tough. 
      I think it would be different if I did not really want to know how to grow cabbages, if I was just asking to get some extra tips or to learn different ways of doing it then talking to neighbors would be very interesting. . As I need to learn how to grow vegetables from scratch, almost, i have never grown vegetables or any annuals except pansies. Neighbors are unlikely to help much, they are not very thorough teachers, they probably are to their children.One person on th eforums said you have to give plants what they want like if they like a lot of nitrogen then you have to give it to them it seems that if you give a lot of nitrogen to potatoes they grow leaves and

     It is as Jacqueg says more than likely that they use herbicides and pesticides so interaction is hard or asking them for advice is not sincere as it seemes to be just a  it is just a way to explain that I don’t like chemicals. I do use a bit of chemical fertilizer though, a bit to get things going and not everywhere.  I have tried things neighbors do, like preparing a small  a small mound of earth as a place to plants seeds in.
      I thought it was teenagers who got cross if you did not agree with them in all particulars but it is everyone or so many people that  it is all the ones I know, they get incredibly cross and start trying to oblige you to be like them when they discover you differ from them radically in something.

       The other bit of what jacques says is also true, here concern about the earth is low and before getting involved with the permaculture forum I was almost uniquely interested in seeing if i could better my soil, rather than in feeding myself, a main permaculture aim. I did think if I bettered my soil I might get others to copy me because they would see how well my plants grew. The biggest thing that has come of my efforts to better things, mostly by not stopping the bettering themselves by letting everything grow, is I suppose, that the grass at the bottom of my dip no longer dries out totally in summer so it seems that things are changing.
      I was also into writing against practices that worsened soils and I did go around observing the soils around me as well as trying to better the soil in my garden so I was attached to reality in as far as I explored my surroundings attached me to reality.. These are not interests of my neighbors or at least the ones I come into contact with, or at least as far as I know, communication is never complete.
     You can grow things in poor soils with the right fertilizers though the soil won’t hold and retain as much water for you if you don’t better the soil in hsense sense o the organics talk of more organic matter in the soil rather than in the chemical senses looking after the Ph .

  My efforts to better soils are useless next to those of the great permaculturists who plant lots of trees and cover everything with lots of mulch, maybe they inoculate the plants or mulches with fungi, put in swales and ponds all in one year and get immediate results. My bettering of soils is tremendously slow and stupid, still, i know what people are up against who don’t have many resources or get up and go to find mulch. Like the use i have of the car is occasional and time off from household duties is also occasional at least it is hard to say cook for yourselves I am off gardening”, very often, so picking up mulch is not easy and I lack any group remotely likely to put themselves at my service  even as a swap for other services. I think a aspect of machismo is for men to reduce as much as they can a woman’s chance of getting into a group. Agri rose macaskie.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50295 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50295 Re: greenhouse suck factor       I find people in the village very intelligent, that does not make them easy to talk to, it is complicated asking about how to garden, especially as they don't use permaculture methods, I am about to do something that they aren't going to like or that seems silly to them or the way i do it is silly. Mind you if i asked them i could get my own ideas into the conversation and that would help the xxause maybe, i am a bit wet somtimes or sometimes go back to being a bit wet, about doing my bit to teach others to fish, at the same time as getting information off them.
     Mulching seems like a fire danger to them, for instance ,and it is one in summer. The fire fear is a hard one if you want to better soil and increased vegetation, fire fear is a interest that tends to demand measures that spoil the soil because they lessen vegetation.
       It is not my experience that the other gardeners  like things i do till maybe later when they have had time to think about them a bit or never.  They have things to teach but people only let go of their knowledge bit by bit and i want to get vegetables going quickly. I do use the virtual village and get knowledge from market gardeners all over the place like there is one and i think he is spanish, his name for a fig tree is Spanish, that  i like in new england, that you find with the words, "permaculture New England" he has a wonderfull hoop house taking of greenhouses and it is probably necessary in new england.  agri rose macaskie. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50303 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50303 Re: greenhouse suck factor     If you read about pacific energy, buildings, this should not be such a big problem. If your green house shelf is supported on petrol canisters full of water, the water in them will help even out the temperature in the green house, taking up heat during the day and letting it off slowly at night.  This seems to me contra instinctive, baths cool down quick enough but i have read it in so many places, like in articles in magazines on houses written by architects, as well as those written by green hippy type people, that i think it must be true. Maybe it is htat the main heat comes off water fast but it holds onto a certain warmth for a long time.
    If you have a lot of rock or earth, thermal mass in your green house as well as that given by quantities of water that in your oil canisters or a swimming pool if you are very rich or very hardworking and inventive, the rock brick and earth will like water absorb warmth when it is too hot, and let warmth off at night, which is the reason cities are so hot at night in summer, the buildings are thermal mass and absorb the midday heat and let it off at night heating up the night an d stopping it from being a relief to overheated residents.
      A stone or earth wall, as exists in the green house dug into the hill and so backed by an earth wall, that  Paul Wheaton films  in one of his videos, it is a green house that disobeys the permaculture rule that you should have what you most need near you. They have to climb a mountain to get to it. Maybe it was a clandestine green house.

  If you want your green house to make use of pacific temperature moderating techniques, your green house must be south facing and your wall that is your thermal mass be on the north side of your glass front. Then you get the thermal mass wall to absorb the heat . You also want a solid  roof on the green house with a big over hang to the south, then the green house will not over heat with  the summer sun, which spends most of the day high in the air and can’t shine into to it because of the roof but it will get the winter sun which is low even at midday and so will shine into your south facing window. Just go out and observe how low the winter sun is to see the sense of this. I did not think about it till i read about passive solar heating .
  Larry hartweg who is good on passive solar energy, you find him in google with the words "abundant energy in harmony with nature" he explains all this much better than me insists on the importance of having a solid roof. He say glass in the roof of a building is a big way of losing heat you should not have windows even in your roof i love the light that comes through the windows in my roof so I shall just have to bare getting cold. So a roof that is a thermal buffer is essential in a green house if you don’t want sudden changes in temperature. Mind you plants flourish with big quantities of light and a solid roof would reduce the light. .
    The roof will stop you losing too much heat at night as well as stopping the green house from getting too hot in summer.
    The houses 'in the cob village filmed by Paul Wheaton seem to be built with these rules in mind, they have big windows, i suppose facing south to catch the winters sun.
Maybe a way could be found that was not too cumbersome of shuttering the green house at night, You could make something like a big tea cozy  to stop heat loss. Maybe even one with transparent material, plastic sheeting with plastic straw inside it that could be left on while you went on holiday.
  There is a type of glass with low emissivity, low E coating that might help reduce heat loss from the green house too. Michael Strizi talks about it in his hydrogen home video. But you can find it with the words, low E glass and greenhouses. 
  If you live in Alaska these ideas might not apply and in winter you might just need to get marijuana growing kit, a room covered in silver paper to increase the light you are using to grow things with . rose macaskie.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50397 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50397 Re: greenhouse suck factor permaculture system, but they are usually rather small compared to the hydroponics techno crowd.

I think it usually makes no sense to try to produce lots of food in a greenhouse - too capital intensive, can move one away from the strengths of permaculture. But for winter protection of plants that may or may not survive unprotected, and for starting seeds early, or a few extra tomatoes to brighten up the off season,  a small greenhouse can make good sense. The same is true of cold frames, cloches, floating row covers, etc ... like jbreezy said, they are a tool. Use a hammer to bang the occasional nail, don't use it to dig a swale! 

I've got a 12' x 24' hoop house that I built for about $300 - slightly more than one dollar a square foot, less when spread out over the life of the structure.

My GH is under a tree that provides a large degree of shade in the summer, much less shade in the winter - which is good, as a greenhouse in the full summer sun can fry plants pretty quick. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50687 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/50687 Re: greenhouse suck factor
  You say that people  cannot grow much in in green houses? In the south of Spain, in Almeria, there is what they call a sea of green houses, that they say you can see from outer space, I don't know how far out. They are made of the flowering stems of agave american, a cactus type plant which sends up a long flower stem, when it flowers, to hold the flower head, that is used there as posts to light constructions such as for three the shade for seaside cafes, as the pillars of the green house and sheets of plastic as the glass. I went on a sea side holiday near there so i have seen them.  They produce the green winter vegetables of europe, in these make shift green houses, together with a few other places, like israel, probably marrocco and some others. So, maybe suprisingly, green houses get their main use in the hottest bits of the country producing winter vegetables.

I  have been trying to get myself off to Turkey, to go on the course given by  bill mollison and geoff lawson, mentioned on these forums. I have had series of problems that have reduced this plan to nothing. I found i could not find my passport and when i found the embassy would give me a emergency travel document, i found i had mistaken the date of the course  and it was half over, it began on the  the 21st annd not the 27th. Not wearing reading glasses is not a good idea if you are doing something importante.  I am stuck  at home as usual which feels very frumpy after dreaming of being in Turkey with big shoots in permacultture and maybe getting myself a certificate in same.    i will have to wait for the next course they do. agri rose macaskie.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51188 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51188 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I am saying if we emphasize permaculture ideas, most of will not build large greenhouses. According to Mollison's philosophy, it is ok to have a patch of grain if people like grain, but not so big as grain is not the central focus of PC. It is ok to have a small garden where the soil is tilled, but again, that is not the central idea of permaculture. Extending that, I think it is ok to have a small greenhouse, but not so big. Permaculture is about harnessing the a multi-canopy design based on locally adapted perennial plants. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51375 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51375 Re: greenhouse suck factor chickens before they go their henhouse. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51404 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51404 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse, needed no added heating and cooling (temperate climate)
so lucky to have the slab and the sun!

go for it!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51454 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51454 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse.  Many citrus do pretty well without that much light.  They get east and a bit of south and north and seem content with that. 

I love it when the grapefruit goes into riotous, pungent bloom at Christmas!  It so beats the whole pine in the house with fragile ornaments thing. 

I think of it as very permie that my 30-year old tree does the decorations for me.  The lime is also nearly 30 and happily yields limes if I fertilize enough and run around pollinating.  I'm a bee-like person anyway, and I love citrus fragrance. 

My mandarins have been edible skin and all. 

Worms frequently ride into the house.  I took one of the trees to table at a trade show for the permaculture guild, and when I got home, a worm jumped out and made a run for it.  There wasn't anywhere for he/she to go, so I returned her/him to the pot. 

Coffee grounds as top dressing attracts worms in.  Some years sow bugs have stowed away as well.  They munch rather noisily on downed leaves, but the aeration of their escape to the depths is probably work that I would need to do if they did not.

A bonus is that the plants like carbon dioxide, and they exude oxygen for wood stove and house mammals.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51615 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51615 Re: greenhouse suck factor
JadeQueen wrote:

Worms frequently ride into the house.  I took one of the trees to table at a trade show for the permaculture guild, and when I got home, a worm jumped out and made a run for it.  There wasn't anywhere for he/she to go, so I returned her/him to the pot. 


it is really quite easy to work out if the worm was a he or a she
she worms love to shop!
and that one was a little slow to the escalator!


your house sounds intriguing as a citrus greenhouse, perhaps post some pertinent pics ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51623 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51623 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse book? I've read through a lot of it and as far as greenhouses go, it seems like a pretty good option in terms of a low carbon footprint. Especially if you could source some of the materials second hand. We're looking at building one using some reclaimed wood from an old boat storage, and gigantic windows from a government building.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51639 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51639 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse attached to our house going on 4 years now.  Actually it used to be a 6,000 square foot dairy barn that we turned into our living quarters and a greenhouse.  Since it is an old barn it has a concrete floor which supplies enough mass to keep it warm enough.  With -10F the coldest we have ever been is 24 under a second cover.  It's taken us 4 years to learn what grows and what doesn't.  From the end of October until the end of February everything stays dormant.  We really need 10 hours of daylight for growth.  Bugs are a huge problem every year no matter what we do.  We look at heat in the summer as a benefit, since we dry and cure alot of produce in there.  We have had stand alone poly greenhouses, and unless you're farming for a living you are probably better off getting perennials.  Between worrying about the wind, snow, and the rot that always comes with a dirt floor, it's alot of problems to deal with. We're zone 5, and by 3/15 sorrel ramps burdock and other stuff is coming up.  We used to post on alot of farm blogs when we were just getting started and hands down the one thing the most of the farmers wished they had done earlier rather than sooner was build a greenhouse.  They/we are farming for a living, having produce early or through the winter increases your income substantially.  If I was just looking for greens for the two of us, I would probably just grow micros.  All you need is one fluorescent light and you can get around 2 pounds of greens a week.
We have some pictures of our set up on our blog, along with the bermed house we are trying to finish up.
My 2 cents.
Ed
http://luckydogfarm.wordpress.com/
PS I love this site. Which I had found it a long time ago. BTW the Holzer links seems to be down.  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51834 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/51834 Re: greenhouse suck factor trees in the greenhouse!
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/52111 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/52111 Re: greenhouse suck factor trees on south side.
  Study various plants that are way better for winter- root plants etc..
  If you can build a small riser wall with earth berming around it this can be a HUGE amount of thermal mass, and any sort of fish tank or 55gal barrels to raise catfish this can also store thermal mass and have fish to eat with your salad!
  Look up Glacial rock or pulverized rock from quarries this stuff is great! most soil in US is depleated~
  New CO2 generator and heaters for greenhouses that run on 100% Veg Oil, and cool Geo Dome greenhouses for max snowload  www.lodge-tech.net  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/63324 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/63324 Re: greenhouse suck factor I can isolate accidental cross pollination.
Ability to initiate earlier starts for the garden
Not only extend my local growing season but grow non-natives from warmer regions.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/64871 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/64871 Re: greenhouse suck factor    Extended growing season
   Make great airlocks to your home
   *sometimes* can be used to heat your home
   *if* build with reclaimed materials, earth friendly
   Growing locally reduces fuel needed to truck produce long distances
   A good place for your soul surrounded by plants and growing things
   Can be used for more than just plants: raise fish using aquaponics, rabbits could provide manure, keep chicks warm, treat gray water, etc.
   Mike Oehler says if you do it right, they can be super in his book THE EARTH-SHELTERED SOLAR GREENHOUSE BOOK

Cons of greenhouses:
   Cost
   Store bought requires a lot of resources
   Type of glazing can reduce different spectrum of light
   Cut off from natural systems such as rain, insects for pollination, etc. You must do nature's job of watering, pollinating, etc.  Not working with nature but against it
   Hard to regulate the temp (may need to heat it in the winter and easily overheats in the summer without vents & fans)  Even temp swings between day and night.
   Must be thoughtfully placed to gain the most amount of winter sun (site often not taken into careful consideration)
   High humidity inside can cause mold
   Building materials degrade quickly due to intense sun and humidity
   Sunlight can be blinding in winter
   Indirect sunlight (using solid roofs, overhangs, shade trees in attempt not to overheat) in the summer means plants leggy/don't thrive
   Severe weather (heavy snow, floods, hail) can easily destroy a greenhouse

Questions I still have:
   Did I miss any of your ideas?
   Has anyone ever put their beehive in a greenhouse for the winter? Is this a bad idea for some reason I haven't thought of yet?
   I am so confused about whether to insulate the floor. Some places I've read say to dig down to below the frost line. The heat from the Earth will keep the greenhouse a constant temp. When you do this, you want to insulate the walls down to the frost line so the Earthen walls do not absorb the heat. Other places I've read says that you need to insulate the floor even below the frost line. Which is it? And Why?
  What does Mike Oehler specifically say about the amount of glazing in greenhouses?]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/64872 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/64872 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse too.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/64873 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/64873 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-228717.html]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/64881 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/64881 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65160 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65160 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Here's the link: http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10344941&search=os0317&x=mode+matchallpartial&Mo=18&No=1&Nr=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&N=0&whse=BCCA&ViewAll=999&Ntk=Text_Search&r=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Ne=4000000&=os0317&Ntt=os0317&cm_mmc=CNEmail_EN_508-_-BANNER-_-9-_-MarketingItemName&ec=1&forcelang=en-CA&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&Sp=S&s=1

Any thoughts on quality or price?]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65569 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65569 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse use,but many of the posts seem to be anti-topic.Today I went to a well meaning friends place to clean it up as he had moved to Hawaii.Mixed among the soil where a greenhouse had been were little chunks of greenhouse plastic too small to pick up.Many of you can imagine from seeing similar messes.Another down side that Ive mentioned before is that ones food system will tend to become dependent on whatever industrial crutches one provides in the desighn.A great way to pioneer new sustainable lifeways is to desighn the system to function without industial products...but that takes more work and challenges our comfort zones.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65762 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65762 Re: greenhouse suck factor
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65790 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65790 Re: greenhouse suck factor
bluesimplicity wrote:
   I am so confused about whether to insulate the floor.

I am trying to find a recipe for the floor also, would appreciate comments from any who have an existing greenhouse, and are fire bricks suitable for under the rocket mass heater..or do we need other insulation below?
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65816 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65816 Re: greenhouse suck factor
It is my position (and obviously the position of a lot of people in permaculture) that a greenhouse can really improve productivity in a way that is sustainable, though it is certainly case that people often fail to do so. I am afraid that I do not recognize how room can be left for that position if people are only allowed to focus on the failures and not the solutions.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65828 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/65828 Re: greenhouse suck factor tomatoes lasted until mid Nov just popping out tomatoes then wham the unusual teens hit dumb me I covered the plants but forgot to pick the fruit. So I had tomato ice cubes. The plant didn't die but didn't get much more off it.  The plants outside had already turned to brown mush. I am sure we could have had tomatoes for xmass had we not had that hard freeze. The condensation problem I had I solved by not watering  at all in the winter.  Water seeps in from under the side walls and that is were I plant for winter crops. Just enough water for the plants but doesn't cause all that condensation.  This summer I want to put power in so I can have tunes when I work.  And maybe a fan just because I have read it is good. Don't know why I need one.  I also use low tunnels in the winter to keep a little extra warmth on the ground. that really helped when I transplanted the leftovers from the outside garden mainly greens.  The chard looked a little weak at first but popped right back up. Every thing else no problem or shock at all.  Haven't tried seed starts out there yet seems like time gets away from me and it's time to go straight into the ground apparently this year won't be any different. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66205 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66205 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse design to be possibly implemented this year (2011).

This is not just a greenhouse, but a building "system".  

This will consist of a 48'x48' pole barn (where 1/2 of it is commercial greenhouse, 1/4 of it will be living quarters and the other 1/4 garage, utility & storage area).  

Some of the attributes I have in mind:

-Fully insulated poured cement frost-free foundation ~80% slab, ~20% basement.
-100% off the grid (wind & solar to generate electrical power).
-3 systems for heating (including an improved version of the rocket mass wood stove).
-Full spectrum L.E.D. lighting where necessary.
-Super-insulated walls & ceiling (North and part of roof sides).
-Double wall acrylic clear panels on South side wall, part of South aspect ceiling and imperative parts of East and West sides (South ~40% of building).
-Thermal mass storage heated by sun will be accomplished using low-wattage pump circulated tubes filled with calcium chloride hexahydrate & fans to circulate air from upper most level of greenhouse celing using sub subterranean heating cooling system (SHCS) principals.

I will design and build the system myself, using labor and heavy equipment assistance/rental where necessary.

It will be built on family land we have in NW lower Michigan, (USDA p.h. zone 4b) where the winters are long, much devoid of sun and lots and lots of snow - that is often persistent.

I do not have all the details worked out just yet, but I will have the details (including funding) nailed down within a month if nothing else business wise comes up.  

One thing I am considering is starting either another business (farm) or organization (non-for-profit) and will go with whichever one has the highest economic advantage (part of nailing down the details).  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While this sort of system is certainly not "permaculture", I do not believe "permaculture" is a model that can produce fresh, nutritional food for people to eat in this climate for more than 7 months of the year.

This is particularly true considering the current population situation, fueled heavily on fossil fuels.  These fuels aren't going to be financially feasible to extract for long.

A pineapple at our local grocery store costs $3.99 currently.  It is produced in Costa Rica.  How much will it cost when oils fails to be extractable?  This is something I think about a great deal.

There are only two ways to combat this problem: Move South or produce locally.

I think it is wholly possible to grow nutritional tropical fruits and nuts organically in Michigan, but not without a greenhouse - and the best greenhouse is one that requires the least heat inputs.

Where is the suck factor in that?



   


 
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66341 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66341 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Hi Kegs,

you may want to check out

http://www.bioshelter.com/

Darrell Frey (one of my PDC instructors) has been at it for a while]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66377 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66377 Re: greenhouse suck factor
That is very close to the idea right there.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66390 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66390 Re: greenhouse suck factor trees.  We are In zone 8-9 at 3500 ft elevation and usually dry desert conditions.  At a cost of about $2500 we stripped the siding off and installed recycled glass doors.  We installed an insulated wall to the north, giving 12 ft. by 30 ft greenhouse.  We left the overhang with the thought of shading the intense summer sun.  We laid six 55 gal drums of liquid heat sink under each grow bed and installed a 150 gal. fish tank and a 250 gal. fish tank.  That gives a total heat sink of 1200 gal. and grow bed space of 240sq ft. Pumps, gravel in the beds, auto vents, sky lights and solar driven fan  completed the job.  Now our aquaponic greenhose yields lots of winter tomatoes and greens.  Summers are not very productive in there but enough plants live to give biofilter action for the fish.  Sweet taters, peppers and basil are proven summer crops so far. 

Suck factor??      I do not get enough production in summer but plan on building a large reflective surface to improve the light in there.  To get winter production I had to install drapes for the glazing, and supplemental heat.  I use a small oil stove and burn biodiesel for heat.  The water temps often drop to 50 deg. F which is barely enough to keep the fish growing.  The citrus trees have not given any fruit yet.  It was only worth it because the building was already there and not used.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66663 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/66663 Re: greenhouse suck factor local co-op has been getting lots of requests for local figs.Figs only grow OK here.The local small organic farmer next door is going to invest in a bunch of hoop houses in order to grow figs locally.It seems like it might use less resourses for people to eat what grows locally naturaly rather than adjust the local environment via greenhouses to have sub tropical food grown locally in a temperate region.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68068 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68068 Re: greenhouse suck factor
The challenge is population.  Pre-colonial methods of food harvesting will not work for this level of population.

There are few options that will.  Soon fossil fuels are history.  Once the transportation runs out, then what? 


Mt.goat wrote:
Our local co-op has been getting lots of requests for local figs.Figs only grow OK here.The local small organic farmer next door is going to invest in a bunch of hoop houses in order to grow figs locally.It seems like it might use less resourses for people to eat what grows locally naturaly rather than adjust the local environment via greenhouses to have sub tropical food grown locally in a temperate region.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68138 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68138 Re: greenhouse suck factor There is occasionaly what I see as a complete dissmissal of a greenhouses worth in areas or zones that those that do not live in those zones do not understand. If you do not live or have not gardened in a cold climate ignoring the wealth of information from a succesful gardener from a different zone that could be passed on to you is a shame.
I've see where both grapes and figs are laid over in the autumn and covered with straw and uncovered in the spring in areas where they could not be grown otherwise.
I have greenhouses and I am perfect according to the word of Paul.  Others live in an area that does not require one and you are perfect too. Greenhouses don't suck, improper usage sucks.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68148 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68148 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Robert Ray wrote:I have greenhouses and I am perfect according to the word of Paul. 


Clever]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68188 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68188 Re: greenhouse suck factor Tomatoes for example are a difficult crop there, because summers get so hot and humid that tomatoes will not set fruit well from June to August.  The solution is to start early enough that you can get good fruit set before Mother Nature shuts down the factory.  A later, second crop is planted to begin fruit set as the temperatures drop back into the tomatoes comfort zone.  A green house makes that possible.  Canned tomato products will be a significant part of my winter diet.

Besides extending the growing season, a GH will also extend MY working season.  When temps are in the 40's-50's it will still be too wet to work the soil.  I can get several months of good solid work done inside a greenhouse while the land is awakening from winter.  A lot of this work is work that I will NOT do when outside temps are running 98° with 98% humidity.  It will increase MY productivity by at least 2 months in winter/spring, and possibly 1-2 months autumn/winter as well.  This benefit could slice years off of the time it will take me to reach sustainability.  And provide me with excess seedlings to trade/sell for other things I will need.

To me, a GH wil be one of my most valuable tools.  No, I have no plans to grow bananas in a snow storm, but I will have a place to propagate, breed, and possibly escape the onset of cabin fever.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68202 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68202 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse already, those in the garden are nowhere near ready to leaf out yet.
Blueberries the same, cuttings leafed out and looking good. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68206 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68206 Re: greenhouse suck factor I concur with many of the issues with greenhouses. however as a plant breeder Id really benefit from having one anyway. Im putting it off this year atleast, perhaps more. I want one that will outlive my grandkids. Some with thick glass like youd find on a tank at sea world or something... okay maybe not that extreme, but I want a thick glass that can stand the weather..... it will help with timing on my bigger projects.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68218 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68218 Re: greenhouse suck factor perennial plants.In that case they are used for a while to establish a permanent landscape-a means to an end.Using them to grow annuals fosters dependence-an end in themselves.This would be like mowing a lawn.A person would need to mow again and again and thus would need a lawnmower as long as that management plan was in place.I use fossil fuels all the time in my quest for a permanent landscape which will reduce my dependence on fossil fuels. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68242 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68242 Re: greenhouse suck factor
I've worked in commercial greenhouses.  My biggest suck factor would be summer overheating.  In the summer, they sprayed (painted) the glass with some chalky white substance which wore off by winter.  And they had a wall of swamp coolers running all summer, too.  I'll bet the owners thought the heating/cooling bills sucked.

I'm surprised no one mentioned Eliot Coleman's book, The Winter Harvest Handbook.  As the name implies, and another poster mentioned, plants quit growing and kind of go dormant when the day length is too short.  But a late planting, in time for them to get to a harvestable size before the short days (depends on your latitude), allows for harvesting through the winter.

Eliot is a commercial, organic farmer.  His movable greenhouses follow his crop rotation.  Fall planted crops, then early spring greens, in the winter.  Then the ends come off the GH's to alleviate the overheating suck factor, and he plants heat loving plants in them, like tomatoes and melons.  When fall comes, the GH's are moved over the already planted winter crops.  Rinse and repeat.  His GH's are not heated. 

We bought our homestead last year.  To avoid other, previously mentioned suck factors, I intentionally purchased a ranch house with an East-West axis (See Intro to Permaculture), and no trees to block the Winter sun.  With just four South facing windows, the interior is 20*F warmer than ambient on a sunny day (I had to learn to factor that in, when lighting the morning fire).  We plan to add a permanent, attached, glass greenhouse after we pay off the house.  In the mean time, I've purchased enough premium film ($140) to last 8 to 10 years, and a hoop bender ($40), to construct a temporary GH.  Now all I need is the steel tubing (~$200), and *time* to build it 

Keeping on topic, one last suck factor, in my opinion, would be to not attach it to your home and make it part of your living space.  As OP's said, it is a wonderful place for the soul and should include the deck or porch.  I don't think I like anything better than being in a warm, humid GH during the cold, bleak winter.  Our GH will be full length on the South side of our house, 40+ feet, but I anticipate 1/2 of that will be used for living area. In my mind, its a blurry line between GH's and passive solar heated homes.

Paul, I admit I am less than perfect.  In fact, my wife will gladly verify that.  But please don't delete my post  ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68579 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68579 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse (12' x 24'  and folded it perpendicularly.  Freakish storm, and many oak and maples in the neighborhood lost limbs (some of which are going into a hugelkultur bed thanks to the local permaculture network!). I think most of the greenhouse is salvageable, I still find it useful for overwintering and propagation, but when a storm like that hits, a certain aspect of the suck factor is impossible to deny. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68581 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/68581 Re: greenhouse suck factor
looking for an alternative to plastic. nyone ever heard of or experienced such a thing?]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69316 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69316 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse costs about $1 000 000 to heat per year. That's alot of natural gas.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69329 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69329 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69333 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69333 Re: greenhouse suck factor
BDAFJeff wrote:
I once read some info put out by the gov'nt of Ontario it said that one hectar of greenhouse costs about $1 000 000 to heat per year. That's alot of natural gas.


Yes, if one is trying to grow bananas or coffee near Toronto, it would be very energy intensive. If the greenhouse relies on solar and compost heat, and is used to extend the seasons for plants that are more cold tolerant, then energy use is rather low (mostly that energy embedded in the materials). ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69408 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69408 Re: greenhouse suck factor 11 feet by 22 feet
this one is made from all glass i collected off Craig's list for free
and 80% of the building materials and the roof
i recycled from an old one that was no longer used.

I am still leveling the floor so it isn't operational yet
because i built it backwards in a sense building it
on sloped ground custom style with no foundation.

it's lockable.

the other one is the standard hoop house 14 feet wide by 7 feet
tall  and 75 feet long goes down hill and it is full of 4 inch pots that i collected and they are all starting to pop although i have had some mouse damage especially on the Russian mammoth seed being dug up.

the warmth of 80+ degrees on a 40 degree raw day is especially
welcomed  and gives you a much earlier start. I plant many crops in big
pots that i will simply bring in come fall to extend the harvest.

I get many replies of "wish i had that"  or " i'm jealous" ....ect. but be careful what you wish for because its like having a pet that needs constant care and has to be pampered daily as in watering and manual heat ventilation.

I have auto openers on the "wish list" for vents i have yet to build since i am focused on cranking out hundreds of seedlings for now while its cool as i wait for this week's rain to make the main outside garden a little easier to turn over.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69617 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/69617 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Kelson wrote:
been thinking about a hoop house made with light fabric which is waterproofed with beeswax. i am

looking for an alternative to plastic. nyone ever heard of or experienced such a thing?


Check this out:
http://www.veggiecare.com/

I plan to replace my greenhouse plastic with an extra-strong row cover/remay type cloth. First I have to say, I really like my light-reflecting but non-burning plastic from Greenhouse Bob in South Dakota. He has a great site, with novel ideas, including recycled tires, and very cool rainwater gathering/hoophouse irrigation systems. http://www.northerngreenhouse.com/about_us.htm The plastic lasted many years, and I roll it up on top of my against-the-garage lean-to hoophouse for the summer, so my hoophouse soil gets rain all growing season, and I can regulate the heat by lifting the corners when I need to, since I didn't make my vents big enough. (1/3 of your south surface area is the ratio for vent size I have since read.) I'm using large hardware store clamps to secure it on the pvc pipes at each end. (And the structure is supported inside against snow loads.)

BUT, the cons: it can get too dry in winter, and with spring it can overheat or get too cold as I don't open/forget to shut things. Too high maintenance for the likes of me, without a better automatic venting and irrigation system. And that's too high tech for the likes of me, at least at the moment.

SO, I am intrigued by this strong, greenhouse-grade material sold by nice folks at the first link above. He says it protects to 25 degrees, which I imagine is the same for plastic? Anyone know? But it will release excess heat, and let in some precipitation, so it sounds like a healthier, lower maintenance system to me. I grew some potato-onions under lights (cold frames) this winter, and baked them before it was even officially spring; most of them are bouncing back, but again, how nice it will be to have a self-regulating material instead of the rigid plastic polycarbonate. I may put my polycarbonate lights on top, too, in the worst of winter, to perhaps get more root growth.

As far as is a greenhouse stupid: no, but I am. I put mine where I probably don't get the best light in winter when the sun is lower, since there wasn't anyplace else to put one. My whole little property has very little full sun, so my property is stupid, too. Yet I eats real good anyway, and my stupid hoophouse winters over a few greens and sets magenta spreen lambsquarters and mustard and parcel weeks ahead of my yard, despite the desert conditions created by my neglect. (I love those self-seeders!) I can plant out my winter sown ( www.wintersown.org ) bok choy and cruciferous things while, well, it's still winter and eat the crap out of them by spring. And it often feeds me cherry tomatoes til Christmas. I wish it could be bigger, and a solar greenhouse with thermal mass, insulated walls and soil bed etc. But it still brings me much happiness. I think I would always want to be able to open up my greenhouse to the rain an the air, though.

Another very cool greenhouse design I read in Mother Earth News but can't find again, was by a guy who accidentally discovered that doing waist high raised beds creates a cold sink in the paths, resulting in dramatically warmer soil in the raised beds and 4 season growth for him in some ungodly climate.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/70056 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/70056 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Since there are probably a thousand ways to do it poorly, and far fewer ways to do it really well, maybe it would be productive for us to focus on when/why to build a greenhouse and how to do it well.

Here in northeastern New Mexico, we have wicked cold winters, and frequent hailstorms in the spring. Before the advent of greenhouses (and supermarkets)  people fed themselves six months out of the year on what they dried, pickled or canned during the other six months. And a bad spring hailstorm could mean hunger and privation due to crop losses.

Some grew root vegetables and tubers and left them in the ground; so long as the ground was unfrozen, this meant they could dig up beets, parsnips and spuds in the winter.

But it's hard to reject out of hand the human benefit from having fresh veg in the winter diet.

A greenhouse can be a wonderful feature if it meets certain parameters - ideally, it faces south, it is ATTACHED to the south-facing wall of a properly oriented dwelling in order to heat the dwelling as well in the winter. That being done runoff from the roof can be cached and directed into the greenhouse. The greenhouse can be constructed largely from discarded/recycled/surplus materials; One friend of mine is partial to old glass shower doors. I would suggest that these be used on the vertical and not for the greenhouse roof in areas where hail is a risk. Another friend dug his greenhouse into a south-facing slope, and built the north wall, plus the bottom half of the east and west walls, from dry-laid stone harvested from nearby. His unheated greenhouse had veg that survived record 25 degree below zero weather this winter.

SOME of the benefits of a greenhouse (which include not only increased winter warmth but also increased humidity) can be realized by more conservative measures, such as intensive use of stone for paths and walls in one's garden, capturing the heat of the sun during the day and radiating it at night. Temporary row hoops can help too. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/74009 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/74009 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse, think of Habitat for Humanity.  They build free houses for many underprivileged people around the globe.  In the US and Canada, they maintain many outlet stores where used materials are sold at very reasonable prices.  A friend bought six sliding glass doors there for about what the big-box store wanted for one.  They also have many new products, ie Home Depot is no longer carrying a certain line of sinks, and donate the ones they have remaining in stock.  The money you spend there will help a worthwhile cause, and save you a bundle of ca$h.

Links to stores in U.S., and Canada:
USA:  http://www.habitat.org/cd/env/restore.aspx
Canada:  http://www.habitat.org/cd/env/restore.aspx?place=can

My suggestion is to look there BEFORE you finalize your plans.  It is much easier (& cheaper) to design around what is available/cheap than to go shopping for specific sizes and styles.


EDITED to add:  Be forewarned!  While you are there, you may see many good things too cheap to bypass.  You may create several new projects around the homestead.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/74045 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/74045 Re: greenhouse suck factor
John Polk wrote:
If you are looking for cheap, recycled materials to build a greenhouse, think of Habitat for Humanity.  They build free houses for many underprivileged people around the globe.  In the US and Canada, they maintain many outlet stores where used materials are sold at very reasonable prices.  A friend bought six sliding glass doors there for about what the big-box store wanted for one.  They also have many new products, ie Home Depot is no longer carrying a certain line of sinks, and donate the ones they have remaining in stock.  The money you spend there will help a worthwhile cause, and save you a bundle of ca$h.

Links to stores in U.S., and Canada:
USA:  http://www.habitat.org/cd/env/restore.aspx
Canada:  http://www.habitat.org/cd/env/restore.aspx?place=can

My suggestion is to look there BEFORE you finalize your plans.  It is much easier (& cheaper) to design around what is available/cheap than to go shopping for specific sizes and styles.

EDITED to add:  Be forewarned!  While you are there, you may see many good things too cheap to bypass.  You may create several new projects around the homestead.


]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/75308 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/75308 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse to grow veggies in the winter, I have built coldframes inside the greenhouse with 8mm twinwall lexan lids and have grown salad greens , carrots, spinach etc without heat, with outside nighttime temps of -20 F. It is really nice to have food so close to the house!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/75309 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/75309 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse sucks in summer.  So I am taking steps to improve it for summer use.  Actually with the late winter weather I am still eating all the tomatoes I want from it.  Not enough light is one problem and I have placed recycled garage doors at an angle to reflect the high summer sun in to the glass.  This works but not enough so next I plan to paint some glass with chrome paint on the back and create mirrors  to do it better.  Over heating is the second problem.  I have addressed this by putting a solar panel on the roof and powering a 12 volt auto radiator fan in a window.  This blows across a fish tank with return water splashing into it....instant evaporative cooling.  Then I open two sliding glass door and close the screens.  On the few hot days we have had it runs 15 deg. F. cooler in there than outside.
Here in the desert gardens do better with shade cloth over all to reduce heating.  With conventional insulated roof and over hang I get winter greenhouse and summer coolhouse.  We will see if it is productive in summer.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/75343 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/75343 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/75449 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/75449 Re: greenhouse suck factor deer out, speed the decomposition process in my compost pile.
They also keep my kids gainfully employed pulling super healthy gargantuan weeds.  There is just no downside here.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/89248 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/89248 Re: greenhouse suck factor When I was on Kodiak years ago they couldnt keep the bears out of the dump.  Noone dared keep compost or raise goats.  That would be bear bait.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/89252 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/89252 Re: greenhouse suck factor Fence around dump.. 

Bears still like to wipe out chickens every so often when salmon aren't too plentiful.

Lots of folks use electric fence now too.

Dogs help.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/89265 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/89265 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse. Edward  deono calls this "black hat thinking" (ref. 7 hat thinking"

In this continental climate (Bulgaria)greenhouses are held to be most useful for spring seedlings and a little winter salad veg (green onions and lettuce are the onlywinter salads most people know of) . And the seasons change so sharply here that greenhouse must be very warm to extend the frost free growing season appreciably.  Plastic is the material of choice for most people.Winter gales and early summer hail can trash anything, but plastic can be replaced cheaply

I made lots of cloches and a  greenhouse out of old windows against an earth wall. After a couple of years I decided to dismantle the greenhouse. It was slightly badly placed,shaded a little but still appreciably warmer all year round and functioned. It was also ugly,  flaking (probably) lead based paint and the condensation was damaging the wall.So this  spring I had no greenhouse.  No trays of  seedlings, no plant pots blowing around, just some seedbeds. The veggies liked it.Everything came a bit later but contrary to popular belief, plenty  of veggies can survive winter here with minimal protection, so I had kale, corn salad, parsley, mizuna, lettuce, perpetual spinach etc.when everyone  else had pickles and nettle soup (not knocking nettles. Patience dock is also used here in spring).  It did mean that my tomato plants were an inch high when everyone else was transplanting big greenhouse grown, fertiliser enriched seedlings from the market (cheap and easy, but definately cheating. Also the varieties sold are awful for organic growing ). Actually the head start gained by greenhouse grown seedlings was not  that great when the time for hardening off and transplant  shock is taken into account.  Seeds that germinated out of doors seemed to make happier plants, and the ones I sowed in situ were happiest of all

Thought solar heating my  water would be a good use for my glass cloches in summer, but forgot about  the hail. Crash, tinkle

Now I am in hot sun, aware that a frost is likely to come in less than a month, and that it miight well be a hard one. I have virtually no cloches and no greenhouse. Plastic sheets over wooden frames work quite well for winter salads and can be improvised quickly. They can also double as shades in summer for transplants.  Attempting to ripen the last few green tomatoes by throwing plastic over them in windy weather takes a lot of energy for very little reward. And stray bits of plastic litter the ground.

I like the idea of lightweight movable greenhouse. Maybe a homemade A frame one covered by  reinforced plastic and weighted  or staked down. Polytunnels I don't like much I've seen them collapse under snow. Permanant glasshouses are a big financial investment, would permanantly occupy a lot of scarce flat ground and be almost unusable in summer even if heavily watered (not possible) and vented.

Elliot Coleman's 4 season gardening is still inspiring though. Eating preserves from November to June would drive me nuts.

I think the answer may lie mainly with hardy veg, hotbeds and fleece with perhaps some use of glass or plastic.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/92389 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/92389 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is still full of tomatoes, spinach, lettuce, chard, mustard and carrots that were protected..amen]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/92519 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/92519 Re: greenhouse suck factor Trees on the equator side of your gh will grow 2-3 feet a year and block available sunshine. I've made mistakes on all these criteria with prior gh!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/92526 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/92526 Re: greenhouse suck factor underground on the south side and earth sheltered on the the ends and on north wall. The south side of the structure will have a below ground walkway that will also act as a cold sink. The north wall will be a rammed tire wall. I am planning on building a RMH to heat a raised growing bench. On the other side of the north wall I am building as stray bale and ferro cement root cellor that will also be partically below ground level. I will duct cold air from the cold sink of the green house into the root cellar when needed to keep the root cellar closer to 34 f. I can also duct warmer air from the top of the root cellar back into the green house by convection. We are in western Pennsylvania at 47 degrees north. We do have cold winters and some grey days. I want to try to bring some plants into the green house from the garden in the fall, grow some cold tolerant baby salid green, kale, chard and possibly some brassicas. Then start plants earlier in the spring for the garden.   I have enough glass to play around with some cold frames and I want to build a large food drier before next summer. We are finding that dried foods work very well for us and want to dry more in the future. The glass was a great find in exchange for two days of work and a tank of gas
kent]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/92543 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/92543 Re: greenhouse suck factor greenhouse would even be worth the cost and effort.  I had envisioned something similar to what two of the other posters suggested with an attached greenhouse to double as a sun room. 

How much of an increase in heating would there be to do this?  I imagine it would be substantial if you were trying to grow something year round, if that is even a possibility.  I'm leaning towards scraping the whole project after reading these forums. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/94813 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/94813 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGA0P9uB9z4]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/96582 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/96582 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.youtube.com/user/Organikmechanic?feature=mhum#p/u/2/br5sE8Pg6Vc
As we have a large collection of free-ranging poultry in our organic garden the greenhouses offer a solution to scratching feet and beaks hungry for the tastiest new shoots. It also means we can have leaf vegetables throughout Winter by growing old varieties of Winter lettuce and kale, oriental cabbage family such as mibuna, pak choi and mizuna, also land cress and corn salad. When the weather gets very cold we cover at night with fleece. This year we are working on an old greenhouse heating method (Victorian England) on using poultry to heat the greenhouse overnight by incorporating the quail house. We also use the quail to control pests such as whitefly, greenfly and caterpillars throughout the year, my wife has video showing how we do this http://www.youtube.com/user/Pavlovafowl#p/a/u/2/GZHD4urd5Xs]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/98224 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/98224 Re: greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/100156 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/100156 Re: greenhouse suck factor
While I applaud the effort to grow all year round, I question the environmental impact of their methods, the nutrient content of their plants grown with little to no UV exposure, and wonder if their customers are doing the same.

It seemed so 'dialed in' and they spent so much time and energy fussing over the details, and their systems seemed so vulnerable to weather, fuel costs, human or machine error etc, as to not be worth it IMO. Sure they had an impressive market stand all year round, but at what cost. Their net profits must pale in comparison to their gross, and you'd pretty much have to be reliant on banks for all the overhead. Yikes!

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/100174 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/100174 greenhouse suck factor Tractor Supply - http://www.tractorsupply.com/lawn-garden/greenhouses/shelterlogic-reg-grow-it-reg-greenhouse-in-a-box-trade-10-ft-x-20-ft-x-8-ft--1119438
Anyone have experience with these as far as durability?]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/103251 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/103251 greenhouse suck factor
These are season extension structures, not real greenhouses. You will be very disappointed if you expect otherwise. They will heat up in the sun, but at night, they will get down to ambient temperature, or a bit above, depending on what/whether you are using any thermal mass for heat storage. You could add a heater, but you would be trying to heat the great out-of-doors. Soil cables would be more satisfactory, but in no event will you have a truly controlled environment.

You will have to pay attention to ventilation, and most days will require two visits for opening and closing.

The structural elements on mine are a bit smaller, about 1", and are powder-coated. I mounted the bottom connectors on treated 2x6s, otherwise they just sit on the ground, and unless you are putting them on a really flat surface, the structure will go catty-wumpus. I shimmed the 2x6s where necessary to get reasonably squared corners. I am in a high-wind area, so I weighted the 2x6s with concrete blocks, and had no trouble, but I am sure a really high windstorm could overcome the concrete blocks.

So far, so good. I am storing the plastic covering this winter, and see no reason why it won't last for years. How well it would hold up in our winters, I don't know. That is a question you might want to ask the company. I can say that I saw no sign of yellowing or cracking or anything else that would give me concern. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/103256 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/103256 greenhouse suck factor Being in Texas, sun exposure would be a concern. Would be putting it on a concrete slab.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/103273 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/103273 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse mid-winter.

That being said, I started my greenhouse plants in September. The nights right now are in the 20's, and I have an assortment of greens to eat in my greenhouse, as well as radishes and pansys. I hope that the turnips will produce fat roots before cold shuts me down.

I do not know if greenhouses are permie or not, but it really is a lot of fun. And yes, I chose the site VERY carefully to get winter sun!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/104654 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/104654 greenhouse suck factor My own 2 cents worth on greenhouses is to build them with used patio doors (cheap - got mine for $5 at ReStore), and to be careful of snow loads, and sliding snow. I've got about 8 (3'x8') patio doors at some precarious horizontal angles on the south west side of my greenhouse addition to my passive solar home... and guess what? The snow slides off nicelyuntil it doesn't... and then it piles on the ground and curls back up... next summer I'm going to have dig in and 'lower' the ground around those areas.

You also need LOTSA thermal storage inside a greenhouse to dampen the overnite temperatures... in the 70's we used 55 gallon barrels filled with water... still works today.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/104899 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/104899 greenhouse suck factor Sometimes it's too hot and sometimes it's too cold. Sometimes there's so little light that the plants just sit there growing mold and fungus. I only intend to use mine for plants when that makes sense.

Season extenders
I intend to use greenhouses as season extenders for in the spring and fall. My materials costs for building greenhouses is close to nil. Most greenhouse spaces will be built against other structures so that I never have a glass wall facing North.

Heat of summer
During the hottest times of year, the greenhouses will be left with wall panels missing to prevent overheating. I'll use some for growing heat tolerant vegetables along with fish. The fish tanks will moderate temperatures. I expect to exchange quite a bit of water with larger bodies of water outside whenever temperatures become excessive. I'm not concerned with air temperature so much. 85°F is the hottest I've experienced at my place.

Overwintering fish, soldier fly larvae and composting
I'll probably raise black soldier fly larvae in the greenhouse which is used to keep warm water fish once outdoor temperatures drop below 70°F. Heat from the larvae will be useful at this time. Heat from composting would also be welcome at this time.

Firewood storage and drying
In winter, the greenhouse is a perfect spot to store firewood. Even in our damp wet environment the relative humidity in a properly vented greenhouse can be managed for wood drying. I won't handle firewood as individual pieces. Instead large containers will be moved in and out with either the tractor or the crane. So there won't be anything stacked against the glass.

Chicken pasture
I don't expect to go to great lengths trying to produce vegetables in the low light of midwinter. But the greenhouses will still have uses at this time. Free ranging chickens and other critters will have their housing built against the North wall of greenhouses.I'll probably manage the chicken coop greenhouse floor as a pasture from October through February. They can enjoy the daytime warmth but will be able to retreat to their well insulated wooden structures at night. The chickens would be kicked out in March when it's time to start garden plants.

They will also have access to the outdoors. Sometimes our lawns spring to life in midwinter. Whenever this happens the chickens will be run outside so that the lawn inside the greenhouse can recover. My dog used to spend hours lounging in an unused greenhouse on rainy winter days.

Winter workshop
During the winter, Vancouver Island gets plenty of rain and it's difficult to accomplish much outside. A big greenhouse which has been emptied of most plant related stuff can become a dry refuge for use as a workshop. Not everything will need to be removed since plant benches convert to workbenches. Even in midwinter we get about six hours per day when this would be a nice comfortable spot for a well-dressed person to work. So effectively the farm has much more indoor workspace during the winter. To me, this dry space is much more valuable than a little bit of kale or other winter crop that I might be able to squeeze from it. Greenhouses with nothing growing inside become dry as a chip rather quickly.

Seasonal storage
Unused greenhouses provide great storage space. Items which require protection from rain can be heaped into unused greenhouse space for the winter. By the time space is required for planting, these things can be stored outside again. I've never had a workshop that didn't sometimes require overflow space. During the winter the greenhouse provides this, and during the dry summer a patch of lawn would be just as suitable.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/104916 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/104916 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Lori Leigh wrote:
I;m leaning towards scraping the whole project after reading these forums.



Have you looked into ... http://undergroundhousing.com/greenhouse_book.html]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/104990 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/104990 greenhouse suck factor
Although we don't get huge amounts of direct sunlight in the winter, I can assure you that sunrooms gather plenty of heat during our winters. Whenever I get a demolition job which contains a south facing sunroom, I make that my temporary home. They often get warm enough to dry laundry. I've had several of them reach temperatures of 80°F in December. A properly managed sunroom can add plenty of heat during the period roughly between 10 AM and 3 PM on mild days.

The first job I tackle is to chop down all of the trees which many fools allow to grow immediately south of their sunroom. I would guess that about 75% of the sun spaces I've encountered have been compromised by trees. Many of these are quick growing varieties which weren't present when the structure was built.

Of course they cool off at night, which is why it's important to have a way of closing the space off from the rest of the house whenever it's not supplying heat.

It would not make economic sense to try to grow plants year-round in most greenhouses or sunrooms, but if managed properly they can extend the season on both ends for plants and then these rooms can be emptied for the winter, turning that space into a useful solar collector for several hours on most days. We had one near Ladysmith which was often used as living space in the winter with no supplemental heating. On warm days it added heat to the house. It was closed off during cold weather but even then provided a thermal buffer.

The amount of available light also varies according to altitude and distance from the ocean. I'm on high ground 8 miles from Nanaimo on a south facing slope with unobstructed southern exposure. Quite often my place is in sunshine when all of the towns along the coast are in dull overcast conditions.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HUMMING BIRDS. On a totally separate note, sometimes hummingbirds find their way into unused greenhouses and sunrooms and are unable to find their way out.

I have found two dead one's and I've also found at least five that were still alive but completely out of energy. I revive them with sugar water. You know a hummingbird is near the end when he's easy to catch in your hand or just sits there while being handled. After a good drink of sugar water they are able to fly off in search of other food.

For those with many hummingbirds it might be a good idea to provide a feeder inside the structure. If they are able to eat they are likely to eventually find the opening before running out of energy. Alternatively, screens could be used to ensure that birds are unable to enter.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/105151 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/105151 greenhouse suck factor http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/shcs.htm
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111396 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111396 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse.

Clearly the people who were going to build a greenhouse in the dense shade of evergreens weren't even competent gardeners in the first place. A greenhouse is an advanced gardening structure, and people should be competent gardeners before undertaking the additional complexity of growing under a permanent, weather-altering structure.

I'm loving the *@#$& outta my 20'x24' hoophouse. I was an experienced gardener to begin with (and I put it in a sunny location!) but it's still a learning experience....

How to deal with burrowing varmints (shrews, mice, voles)
dealing with insects--aphids, cabbage "worms", cutworms, cucumber beetles...
dealing with heat in summer (venting ain't enough in Nebraska). I bought shade netting late last year to try out this summer.
managing the soil for maximum production
VERTICAL GROWING!!! (just installed aircraft cable runs midsummer)--it's a revolutionary improvement!!!
how to space your growing beds, when to plant, how to water, etc....

I'm deliriously happy with my hoophouse. I don't think I'd ever want a glass greenhouse--they present additional burdens like building permits (and the additional real estate tax) in most areas, and though double-paned glass can be an adequate insulator, the effect of the sash DECIMATES insulation values. Why pay the additional costs then?

No, it's a hoophouse for me, now and forever. I want nothing more.

It's only my third winter with the house (the first winter was largely lost since the house got installed the last possible moment before snow flew). So that winter it just overwintered some kale, parsley, and perennial cutting starts. Plus, I had to compost away all the tough turf grass that was under the hoophouse.

First summer was spent largely dealing with the tough turf grasses and green manuring. The tough grasses were layered over with corrugated cardboard and mulch. Areas that were soft enough to be turned (not many in the clay soil) were succession-planted with buckwheat to break up the tough clay. A few monster tomato plants also grew there and produced bountiful harvests.

By fall some areas could be planted for a few overwintering crops--onion family, Egyptian walking onion, more perennial holdovers, kale, parsley, etc.

Last year the soil was finally ready for large-scale planting. Basil, lettuce, kale, kohlrabi, spinach, turnip greens, peas, cucumbers, gobs of tomatoes, green beans, and very happy pepper plants. We are still harvesting carrots, daikon radish, parsley, green onion, and kale. Next winter we'll add more root crops and spinach (this year we had too many tomatoe vines to plant the winter crops).

It's all an intense learning experience.

Oh, and I live in zone 5b, Nebraska. It's a sunny 20 degree day outside, and in the hoophouse the temps are in the 50s. (On an overcast day, there is not quite the same heat gain of course!)]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111726 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111726 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse around thanksgiving...its not really passive solar, I have a small heater that I kick on at night when it gets in the single digits and the fan, but the thought is there...I should be harvesting my first greens this weekend im pretty psyched
http://www.yourgardenshow.com/users/kicknochis/gardens/passive-solar-greenhouse]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111750 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111750 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111762 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111762 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111780 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111780 greenhouse suck factor feed yourself greens out of it all winter long. A friend of mine in Missoula (Montana) grows greens in this coldframe (outside, of course) all winter. Also, I'll bet that with some ground heat exchange you wouldn't even need the heater. But, that would involve a PITA retrofit. Have you considered a little rocket stove with the outlet run under a bed? I've been thinking that a rocket stove would work well with a greenhouse. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111790 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111790 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111791 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111791 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111796 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111796 greenhouse suck factor
Re. the CRMPI design, here's the link: http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/shcs.htm
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111805 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/111805 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112511 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112511 greenhouse suck factor BTW, is a that a hardwood-floor I'm seeing there? Is it salvageable? How about the windows?
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112513 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112513 greenhouse suck factor The windows are single pane which works best for peak gain in mild climates. The floor unfortunately is crappy plastic over crapwood laminate. But there's lots of other good salvage.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112515 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112515 greenhouse suck factor ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112518 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112518 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse sticking out of the snow. But we are able to supply all our greens for the family plus belpeppers, tomatos, parsley, greenbeans, lettice, beetgreens or maybe I should say reds and a number of others that never came ripe without the this wonderful building. We used wood and plastic. It is supprising what we can grow.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112526 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112526 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112527 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112527 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112533 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112533 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112567 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112567 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112598 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112598 greenhouse suck factor We plan a greenhouse for v ranch II, while it get cold down there in winter,there is very little snow by comparison, t he season will be longer and some things can winter well.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112620 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112620 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse could melt enough snow to maintain sun exposure... with resulting water stored inside the space for thermal mass and use. Any chance for something of that nature?
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112635 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112635 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse which I use to grow my seedlings (after starting with a warming pad) for spring. However I wanted to grow cold tolerant vegetables in the soil during the winter and I have now constructed two cold frames (each 10ft by 4ft) which seem to be working.

I used cement blocks on the north side for the first and the cost was approx $40, facilitated by the purchase of windows for nominal cost at the local thrift store. For the second I used large stones dug up while constructing a contour ditch - the stones act as a heat sink and total cost was less than the first. I have min/max thermometers inside and outside and when the ambient temp fell to a low of 20 degrees the inside temperature was just over 30 degrees and my vegetables are growing well. I also sited my gravity fed irrigation system in the cold frame so that watering can be done without opening up the frames.

You can see details in my "cold frame" posts on my website at www.nutrac.info.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112636 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/112636 greenhouse suck factor
Hello from Romania!

I am trying to become self-sufficient on a small piece of land that has a fairly big whole on what I later concluded must have been a very long time ago a small creek. I needed myself more soil for around the property and as I dug, after three/four feet I ran into sand which continued more or less up to 12 feet down to the clay of the first water bed so (with so much sand around) my hopes for creating there a (15x60 feet) lake in that location where shattered.
Not thinking of another use for the whole I am now considering building there a large basement (15x30 feet and 9 feet deep) to use as temporary living quarters - on top if which I will one day build the house. Even so, I would not get enough soil to change the slope around the upcoming basement – to be safe from water infiltration - so I want to continue the basement (N-S) with a (15-30 feet) greenhouse that would be partially in-ground (three feet).
I was thinking that I could chiefly use it to grow plants and vegetables in container (perhaps on tables) and I want to give a slope to the arched part of the greenhouse to more easily collect hot air to sometimes heat the house/basement and/or store the heat underground the greenhouse (through some kind of system) for the cold winter nights. This in fact would be an exchange of air as I could also draw heat from the basement (another reason for going nine feet high with it – larger volume) during winter and maybe even cold air in the spring (until airing it during the hot summer days using conventional heat-release methods).

It is a huge investment for me; I have not found sufficient information on the subject so your observations would be of great help. I will try to formulate some questions but feedback in any format would be much appreciated.
1. With so much sand around me, a 10/12 feet slope and conventional wall protection measures will I be safe from water infiltration if there are only three feet (for water to travel) between my basement floor and the clay soil (I will of course collect all roof rainwater so no pressure from that direction)?

2. Maximum temperatures here are from -5F to 105F (-20 to 40 Celsius). Under extreme circumstances I guess I could use some heating system but otherwise, do you consider that having an almost equal volume of air for exchange I would be able to keep the greenhouse above freezing level simply by drawing air from the basement. (I am thinking that I get a good start from the heat released by going three/four feet in ground with the greenhouse.)

3. While quite expensive, would it make a significant difference if I were to ad a one inch of foam insulation to the concrete walls exterior of the greenhouse? (I am already planning to protect from water those walls.) How about doubling the covering sheet of the greenhouse?

Some other less obvious bonuses would be:
- bring soil on the property at the same level.

- recycling some of the stone mixed with sand to serve for mixing my own cement.

- recycling lots of sand to improve soil permeability in my garden.

- recycling and circulating the preheated greenhouse air in a system that would further heat it and fuel the solar water heater and a sizable food dehydrator.

Once again, I would greatly appreciate your answers and suggestions.
Thank you kindly,

Gerula]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/114775 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/114775 greenhouse suck factor podcast]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/115766 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/115766 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse and had the same things to say about it. About 25 days either side of the winter solstice, the sun is too low to even reach my property, the rest of the winter and fall and even into spring, there is not enough sunlight to count on. I've heard of people having 100F temperatures in their greenhouse in winter. That will never be the case here unless I have heating sources other than the sun.

In my defense, I have the following needs/reasons for a greenhouse.

My location is generally too cold to grow tomatoes easily outside. People on the bottom of the valley can do it, but I've had 1 too many years of having 30 lbs of green tomatoes on the vines to not have a greenhouse.
My family uses about 6-10lbs of tomatoes a week, which is a large expense, if 400$ greenhouse can cut into that expense for 3-4 months of the year, then I have a winner.
I knew going into it that I wouldn't have sunlight hitting the greenhouse during winter. To have sunlight hitting a greenhouse, one must first have sunlight. We average something like 8-9 days of sun during the 3 months of winter.
I can keep things alive inside it during the winter that would otherwise die. My greenhouse didn't freeze this year, but outside has quite a lot. Being able to keep things alive during the winter gives me better storability of certain vegetables that are more cold sensitive than others.

Paul says that it is a lot of work to take care of the plants inside of it, because you now have to water, etc etc, however, it is no different than raising livestock in a paddock system, you have to move the animals every so often otherwise your paddock is ruined. With a greenhouse, all of the manual tasks besides the initial planting (and pruning if desired), can be automated through timers and temperature based door openers. In the summer however, I can leave the doors or sides open and not have to worry about over/underheating.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/115896 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/115896 greenhouse suck factor podcast 109

They talk about his greenhouse.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/116170 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/116170 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse, take a look at our progress. This is an easy and efficient way to heat your greenhouse...we've posted progress pictures.. today we measure the heap, 1 ft in...and got 150 degree reading...so exciting to use manure and leaves to heat your greenhouse from the outside...not in!! take a look all!!! https://www.facebook.com/pages/HomePlace/111118865630769

Just go to facebook and type in HOMEPLACE...
lee in KY]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/117389 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/117389 greenhouse suck factor sustainability should take a close look at it. You must select the proper greens to plant obviously and most of the seeds should be started in the fall before it gets too cold to get them going. Like everything else you should do your research before you get started. My house is double layered 6mil plastic inflated with a small blower and the plants are also in a tunnel inside the house. A rocket stove with the raised beds for the mass might be a great idea to try.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/119703 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/119703 greenhouse suck factor
I do have two small pre-fab greenhouses that are mounted on a south facing stone wall. I use them to start seeds in the spring. A lot of these seedlings are traded with friends and neighbors for other varieties. I do find that I need to start peppers, melons and eggplant in the greenhouse or they won't get enough of a head start. Our summers are usually three months of drought with very high temperatures during the day and cool temperatures at night. During the summer months my little greenhouses are far too hot for plants, but they do an excellent job drying fruit. Over wither, they house young or sensitive plants. I don't monkey around with worrying about trying to keep the inside temp above freezing. I sort of use my mini greenhouses like sun traps rather than real greenhouses. We had an awful cold snap this year which had lows around -15 C. Because I don't keep anything that isn't frost hardy up to -8 C, I didn't have to worry, which was nice. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/120219 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/120219 greenhouse suck factor webpage]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/120342 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/120342 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse to the trash?The ecological costs here are staggering!.
Ive been eating the enzyme rich fruits of Sorbus Domestica bletted in the winter which taste like a cross between chocolate and apples.I sure am glad I chose to spend my money on plants that actually do good where I live instead of a plastic dome to grow plants that dont.And the best part is that S.domestica lives for 400yrs instead of the brief blip of a life of a greenhouse.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/121348 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/121348 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is a tool.
Poorly constructed or thought out greenhouses fail just as badly as poorly thought out food forests or gardens.
Living in the cascades I have had some tremendous snow loads on my greenhouses and they have survived.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/121349 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/121349 greenhouse suck factor organic,has a much smaller ecological cost.In fact,it might be a benefit!.Glad that you have achieved greenhouse sainthood but many people have a rougher learning curve and along that curve mistakes are made.When we deal with all organic things like plants,than those mistakes often take a lower toll on our enviroment.Not everyone is going to do things perfect.I am advocating for people to avoid using short lived industrial technologies because many will be used inapropriatly which will result in a non organic waste stream.Sure,some will get it right but if more than a few get it wrong than a problem exists.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/121357 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/121357 Re: greenhouse suck factor
Brenda Groth wrote:mine is double wall polycarbonate with aluminum framing..i am fairly well pleased with it as it has lasted me for well over 20 years now..and it has more than paid for it's original $1,000 price tag in saved plants..


Newbie to the forum here

This is how ours is built as well. Not sure exactly how big it is because my husband designed it, I just use it *ha* but I believe its about 12x20. We have auto vents and fans as well as radiant floor heat so we can grow in it all year round. We live at 5,700 ft in the mountains of SW Montana. Winters are long and usually hover around 15 degrees, except at night when it goes below zero and we also have an "arctic" period for about 3 weeks, usually in January every year, where the temps are well below zero and the wind chill is even lower. Anything other than a green house would hardly afford us the opportunity to grow most foods in this particular spot.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/123269 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/123269 greenhouse suck factor underground house book?" The author also does a book on Underground greenhouses. I think these would be fantastic! Keep chickens or rabbits penned up in a (heat sink-the lowest point in the room). Then they put Co2 AND heat in the air. This helps a lot in colder climates, letting you push your grow season months further, considering your ambient room temperature is roughly 55 degrees, without the animals, or any sunlight. Plus your animals are pretty safe underground, as are your plants, so long as you follow his guidelines in construction properly. Mike Oehler, definitely has a lot of great ideas and years of wisdom that we all could learn from.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/123935 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/123935 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is needed when growing tomatoes or other vulnerable veggies in the winter but will kill plants in the summer under a conventional greenhouse system.

We designed and built two small greenhouses to take these factors into account. One grows veggies and the other grows orchids. The greenhouse has removable vinyl sides that come down in May and go back up in October. There are fans and misters in the greenhouse to further cool it in the summer. Screen walls remain on the greenhouse to keep out bugs in the summer. These basic design elements make the greenhouse useful year round and solve many of the problems alluded to in the posts above. We've now had these greenhouses more than five years, and they've proven their value. So, with a little bit of thought and planning a greenhouse can be useful in almost any location. Feast your eyes on the greenhouse porn below. These are pics of our greenhouse with a hydroponic set-up.





]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/131687 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/131687 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse to extend our growing season on both ends, as it is otherwise too short for most peppers or tomatoes. And then, because we cover it with solex, which only transmits 71% of the light, we get to grow cool weather crops like kale and lettuce in intense summer sun. Without it, they just bolt. Permaculture for food is kind of tough in the high desert mountains, unless you live on pinon nuts! And, to reduce water use (a VERY big deal for us), we use Sub-Irrigation Planters (see globalbuckets.org). Really simple, clean, productive, and successful for us so far...]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/137272 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/137272 greenhouse suck factor
Bill Kuhn wrote:Here in the mountains east of Albuquerque, we need a greenhouse to extend our growing season on both ends, as it is otherwise too short for most peppers or tomatoes. And then, because we cover it with solex, which only transmits 71% of the light, we get to grow cool weather crops like kale and lettuce in intense summer sun. Without it, they just bolt. Permaculture for food is kind of tough in the high desert mountains, unless you live on pinon nuts! And, to reduce water use (a VERY big deal for us), we use Sub-Irrigation Planters (see globalbuckets.org). Really simple, clean, productive, and successful for us so far...


hey Bill, I'm interested in your experience with solexx. are you happy with it?]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/137998 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/137998 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/138588 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/138588 greenhouse suck factor
Does anyone have any useful tips for me for growing veg in greenhouses a) where it averages 90 - 100+ degrees most days and b) where there is no shade (no trees!). thanks ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/154213 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/154213 greenhouse suck factor
Joannah Stutchbury wrote:Hi everyone, I am from Kenya in Africa and many NGOs are starting to promote the use of green houses here to help prevent famine and create income generation. My own limited experience with greenhouses (closed plastic ones) is that they get infested with all kinds of mildew etc. I understand you have to create a healthy environment and give the plants space, but it gets sooooooooooo hot and humid in there................... The companies who sell the greenhouses also sell them together with a "kit" of chemical fertilisers; chemical pest control and GMO seeds, so we have a long way to go!!

Does anyone have any useful tips for me for growing veg in greenhouses a) where it averages 90 - 100+ degrees most days and b) where there is no shade (no trees!). thanks


Yeah. Keep the frame, ditch the plastic, put up shade cloth instead. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/154237 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/154237 greenhouse suck factor trees.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/154238 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/154238 greenhouse suck factor half way with some cool tips - I believe ventilation is the key - shade netting would definately be a better option.

And of course as Tel says - planting trees!!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/154393 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/154393 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse. I can feel and smell dirt even in the winter.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/168071 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/168071 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse is condensation.

It has south facing glazing and couple of west facing windows set into the wall. The north side and all non-glass areas of wall are insulated. It has water circulating through the ground, into tanks on the north wall and through a radiator hooked to a ducted air system drawing the hottest air from the peak. I have grown tomatoes through the winter relying on the thermal mass to provide heat at night and on cloudy days. But it got pretty cold at night due to the phase change of water from gas to liquid on the interior of the glass. (The phase change gives up 1000 times the energy needed to raise that amount of water 1 degree C) The west windows are from sliding glass doors and water does not condense on them. While I planned on having a removable night-time outside insulation/solar reflector, the size of the structure made that a very difficult build. Removable insulation would add a labor factor and a cost factor but would solve my condensation problem, which mostly occurs at night. I think the cost of double glazing is well worth the fighting and fussing with condensation issues.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/172948 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/172948 greenhouse suck factor
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173016 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173016 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse issues,I personaly believe that fermented foods are the solution to greenhouses.They provide live foods for the winter without the ick factor of plastic.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173069 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173069 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse attached to my house does dual duty in providing passive heating. A greenhouse is a tool for those in areas where that extended growing season is required. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173094 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173094 greenhouse suck factor sustainable direction.Its also good to experiment with other options.Blindly accepting the product dependent culture we are in will not move us forward.What I like about this thread is that it challenges the assumed neccesity of greenhouses.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173153 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173153 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse made of salvaged materials be considered sustainable?
Does my using my greenhouse to nuture cuttings for outside planting have a benefit?
I've seen a definite challenge on describing sustainable and if one can truly be sustainable without external inputs from outside their haven.
How does one keep animals in or out of pastures without some external input if the property does not have a woodlot?
Does passive solar heat have any value for a greehouse attached to a house?
Required clothing in a cool climate is definetly different than those of one living in a PNW rainforest or New Mexico desert. Zonal differences definitely make a difference in what's required to survive.
Are any season extenders a good thing?
The intelligent proper use of a tools, and greenhouses are a tool, is what has moved us from loin cloth and stick and I don't think that we need or will de-evolve to that time. We will have to move away from petroleum products. Plant based or bio plastic might be an answer to ick.
What I hope is that those who don't live or garden in a cold climate are open minded enough that they can accept what those of us that do, utilize tools that are not required in their area. I'm not blindly accepting a product I'm implementing Roman technology.
For instance my overnight temperature last night was 7 degrees and right now it's 55 degrees being in the mountains as I am even in the summer the range of temperatures swing wildly some type of season extender is important and prudent.
I've lived in areas that had no need for a greenhouse but a greenhouse now gives me the ability to be resilient and productive.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173170 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173170 greenhouse suck factor http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173419 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173419 greenhouse suck factor My green house with raised beds that have haybale bases have been very effective in decreasing water requirements and providing insulation.
I am of the opinion that we will see change but not slide back to pre industrialization. Dependent on more localized infrastructure but still connected outside my circle. I like to think that we are able to adapt and will.
Those of us in challenging areas will continue to use tools that are a prudent choice for our particular circumstance. I hope that my efforts are within the 18% that are considered a success.
Do you consider an Oehler design having any merit? Does the use of salvaged material removing that salvage from the waste stream have value? Is there any instance in where you think a greenhouse has any value?
I envy my daughter who lives in Woodland and doesn't need a greenhouse but I still kick ass in overall production some of which is in a greenhouse.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173441 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173441 greenhouse suck factor trees and perennials are great because the use leads away from dependence similar to building swales ect.I in no way meant to imply that humans should go back to the past but that we should go forward non industrially using the increased availability of plant genetics and examples of technique gleaned from non industrial cultures around the world past and present.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173486 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/173486 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse didn't end up being just for the care of the plants. I noticed how much better I felt as I worked in there too. The warmth, the light, the smell of damp soil. It was all very theraputic for me.

I did find that I had a hard time controlling the watering of plants. I work from 7-5 away from home, so there was plenty of times for things to dry out. I tended to worry about them drying out too much and actually ended up overwatering. As time goies on, I will probably add the drip system, but for now I am learning. I also need to get a shad cloth because I almost fried everything a couple of times. Had a couple of casualties, but thankfully not a lot.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/174262 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/174262 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse if they are new to you. But I think they are worth it in my area.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/174493 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/174493 greenhouse suck factor greenhouse would be enough for me. I would NEED my own, personal, human sized terrarium! Complete with skylights, a waterfall, indoor pool and greenhouse area for overwintering tropical plants, starting seeds, etc.

Me too.

AND - all that extra summer heat? Seems to me you save it for winter. Greener Shelter, Don ...., is an architect with a technique involving burying it in the ground somehow - oh yes, you just put on a waterproof skirt to keep the ground dry, and it gradually becomes a great heat sink he says. Somebody else stored that heat in the attic, which of course is where it goes naturally anyway.

My greenhouse is going to be at least twice the size of the house it's attached to. (Unless I find some reason to make the house awfully big.)]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/182885 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/2098/182885 greenhouse suck factor
1. Light has a hard time traveling through evergreens, building, hills, etc. If you need winter light then you will likely want to consider lighting angles and obstructions during the winter solstice, equinox, and summer solstice.

2. A green house, cold frame, hoop tunnel, etc. is generally intended to supply a temperature higher than the normal temperature at the lowest point of the night. So some means to raise temperature must be available be it solar, burning fuel, compost heat, ground water heat pump, etc.

3. Thermal dynamics shows that heat loss from a warm green house to a cold environment is a given. So heat sinks such as black pickle barrels may be desired. Also, plants do not need clear windows when it is dark. So having insolation material to reduce heat loss might not be a bad idea.

4. Systems to trap enough solar heat during winter solstice and coldest part of winter may trap too much heat in good weather. This is why they sell automatic vents and fans. A system must be able to handle both extreme ends of temperature.

5. The greenhouse is a possible solution to a given problem. First truly understand the problem. For example a tree may be able to grow one or two climate zones lower if it can get radiant heat from very large stones, building, or any large mass that can absorb heat. One may be able to start seedling fine just using a cold frame. Certain vegetable like kale may do fine for several months growing in a low hoop tunnel. Remember if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail!!!
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paul wheaton wrote:I think that a greenhouse is an excellent idea for about 18% of the greenhouses that exist.  The weird thing is that so many greenhouses strike me as stupid.

Last year I was asked for my advice on a greenhouse location.  These people had dreams of eating veggies in the winter.  I pointed out that the trees to the south were conifers that were so dense that their greenhouse would be in the shade all winter.  They labeled me a "negative nelly" and built their precious greenhouse.  On a bright sunny day in november at about 10:30 in the morning I pointed out how their greenhouse was not only in the shade, but it would be lucky to get 15% of the available direct sunlight throughout the day.  And it would only be worse for the next two months. 

A similar thing a few years back.  With similar outcome. 

I suspect that half of all greenhouses built are built in the winter shade.    And the days are already so short then - blocking even half of the light is gonna make for a really lame crop.

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Another thing about greenhouses is that you have split yourself away from the eco system.  By having a greenhouse at all, you are filling in the position of mother nature.  Everything that mother nature does to keep things in balance, you now have to do.  So when fungus or bugs or anything gets out of hand, it is now your job to deal with it.

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I guess I felt the need to start this thread because everybody knows the upsides (food in winter) but very few people appear to be aware of the downsides.  Deep understanding of the downsides helps to mitigate them or at least decide to not put a lot of money and effort into something that, in the end, won't be worth it.

Just because I may be a negative nelly doesn't mean that these issues are less true. 

Anybody else have greenhouse issues that they would like to warn future greenhouse builders about?






Even there are many problems, we can still find a way to make the greenhouses better.
1, LED growing light for greenhouses in shade.
2, Evaporative pad and fan cooling system can prevent your plants being baked during summer. Also shade system can reduce the greenhouse inside temperature as well.
3, To improve the humidy inside the greenhouse, you can choose fog or mist irrigation system.
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