<![CDATA[permies: Latest posts for the topic "Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?"]]>

<![CDATA[permies: Latest posts for the topic "Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?"]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/t/23/homestead/gun-homestead-solutions JForum - http://www.jforum.net Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? 2 Your more likely to get robbed just for the gun.
3 Kids killing kids with parents gun.

I grew up in the city and even owning a gun is dangerous.
So I am a vunerable women in the country, I already got my site robbed more than once. There are a lot of dangers but everything I know about guns says its more dangerous to own one than not. I do realize that a lot of people are not responsible enough to own a gun and guns don't kill people (but that is thier only use to kill something). If you are not prepared to kill someone coming at you (meaning shoot to kill) than for get it. I believe I am more likely to claw your eyes out than be able to shoot kill. What about bee keeping? seems to me people really don't like to go near bees. A dog would alert me early and maybe even an attack dog?Ughh.... Sigh...I'm really not sure]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117680 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117680 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? whatever reason (inability, lack of skill, lack of conviction, beliefs, whatever), then you need to find another answer.

A well-trained dog would be an excellent answer. If you have experience with dogs, you'll have some background; otherwise, do your research and volunteer at shelters to begin to understand dogs. Guard Dogs are a deep investment in time and effort that pays off, but if you can't invest the time then you will get no good returns.

Good for you for even asking the question.

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P Thickens wrote:Responsible, trained firearm owners do not increase injury rates. Unfortunetly not every gun owner is responsible and trained. So the real question is "can you kill another human with your weapon?" If the answer is NO, for whatever reason (inability, lack of skill, lack of conviction, beliefs, whatever), then you need to find another answer.

Great answer!

I would add that if you are going to have a gun for self defense it's a good idea to have a less than lethal alternative. Pepper spray, bear spray, taser something along those lines. That way you have options in case you are ever forced into that postition. If an attacker / robber / tresspasser doesn't respond to your warning they get the LTL weapon, if they keep coming then they are insisting that you use copper jacketed lead. Also a warning shot into the air can act as a LTL alternative, and shows you mean business and know how to defend yourself.

+1 to the dog

Even a small yappy dog can help alert you and distract an attacker long enough to allow you to get your weapon. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117689 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117689 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Brad Davies wrote:If an attacker / robber / tresspasser

It is not legal to shoot someone for trespass in the US.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117693 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117693 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Brad Davies wrote:If an attacker / robber / tresspasser

It is not legal to shoot someone for trespass in the US.

Depends on the circumstances and state. Every firearm owner should do her research before presuming to have a working weapon in the home. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117701 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117701 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

P Thickens wrote:

Depends on the circumstances and state. Every firearm owner should do her research before presuming to have a working weapon in the home.

There is no state in which it is legal to shoot someone for trespass. The circumstance can not be simply trespass.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117704 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117704 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? Trespass isn't limited to the curtelage of the property it could include entering of a building as well.
I've always lived in a home that has had firearms so familiarization and a concept of just how dangerous they can be is important.

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Tyler Ludens wrote:

Brad Davies wrote:If an attacker / robber / tresspasser

It is not legal to shoot someone for trespass in the US.

Depends on the situation. For just tresspassing yes that would be illegal, that's why I suggested a LTL, less than lethal, alternative.

Ingham County Prosecutor, Stuart J. Dunnings III, says that you have to be in great danger before you kill someone in self defense. That issue is laid out in a statute. He says, "Here's the hitch, has an honest and reasonable belief that imminent death or sexual assault of, or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another individual will occur if certain things apply."

Cooley Law Professor Ron Bertz says, "The statute is a self defense statute, so that's only applicable when another person is physically threatening you with great bodily harm. You walk into your backyard and some guy's pointing a gun at you and says, 'You're dead now buddy,' you can pull out your gun and shoot him first. I mean, that's the oldest rule in the world and there never was a statute on that until just about a year ago."

It's important to remember that just because someone is on your property, you can't just shoot them. That's trespassing. However, if someone enters your home to commit a felony, Bretz says you can use deadly force to protect your property. He says, "If somebody's breaking into your house, that's not called burglary, that's called home invasion, and that's a felony. If somebody's breaking into your house or has broken into your home, the court cases say you are allowed to use deadly force."

Bretz says, "It's applied differently, depending on what state you're in. Some states, like Michigan, we call the 'Make My Day' states from the Clint Eastwood movies. In other words, if somebody's trying to steal your stuff, you can shoot them. And, to be more specific, the law in Michigan is the citizens in Michigan have the right to use deadly force which is defined as anything that can cause death or serious injury. You have the right to use deadly force against anyone who's committing or fleeing from a felony."
Source: http://www.wilx.com/regional/headlines/80377282.html

Shooting someone should always be a last resort, but if you fear for you life you can use deadly force to defend yourself. That being said you better make damn sure you can prove deadly force was neccessary, and that you exhausted other options first if possible, hence the LTL alternatives.

This was from MI, you location may vary.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117709 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117709 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Brad Davies wrote:

P Thickens wrote:Responsible, trained firearm owners do not increase injury rates. Unfortunetly not every gun owner is responsible and trained. So the real question is "can you kill another human with your weapon?" If the answer is NO, for whatever reason (inability, lack of skill, lack of conviction, beliefs, whatever), then you need to find another answer.

Agreed completely. Guns are tools to achieve a goal, just like any other potentially dangerous tool, proper education, training and use are a must. You wouldnt just jump in a car for the first time and expect to operate it safely, the gun is the same thing. Too many idiots give responsible gun owners a bad rap. Far more people get injured or killed from vehicles than guns, it all comes down to personal responsibility. Without knowing your particular circumstances its hard to make other suggestions for self defense/protection.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117712 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117712 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117715 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117715 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? As mentioned in earler posts we should know how to load, unload, handle and use a gun safely.

Thoes who think they would defend themselfs or there family with a tea cozy should get a tea cozy, have learn how to use one and keep it handy.

Tyler, My understanding is, in the state you live in it is very legal to use nessary.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117716 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117716 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117717 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117717 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Theresa Whited wrote:Let me state that I am not against guns. Our most important right Is the right to own property and the 2nd is the right to bear arms to protect it. In states that gun ownership is more relaxed there is less crime. I am worried about the government taking our rights because lets face it the only defense we have in case of a revolution (which I would gladly fight for) is our firearms. I believe in my rights and if I need a gun to exercise them I will.

Exercising your right is a great reason too! Just be responsible

The NRA will have laws, and google searches will yield different laws. My rule of thumb is, no one gets shot until they are in my home and are a obvious threat. If they are running for the door, DO NOT shoot them in the back! From a legal perspective, you have to prove you are defending yourself not using the weapon as an offensive weapon. Too bad our domestic laws regarding offensive defense arent followed internationally.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117720 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117720 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117723 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117723 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
One day my little brother came home alone from school in the North County St. Louis. He walked in as the juvenile thieves ran out the back door (1 my brother could've been dead). They vandalized the house and took all my pops guns mostly for hunting (2 these juveniles were specifically looking for guns). They eventually caught a 12yr old waiting at a bus stop with my pops shot gun to kill another teen (3 more guns in the hands of juveniles) If anyone is familiar with Kenloch or the projects next to St. Louis Airport this is where my pop grew up and then me. I did grow up around guns and ate plenty squirrel, rabbit and dear.

I was looking at http://www.primos.com/landing_page2.aspx a hunting cam for surveillance. Is anyone using surveillance to detour trespassers? It seems like a pretty good idea because no matter what happen you would have proof.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117739 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117739 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://mudfem.blogspot.com/ (a small video) every time I watch this video I think "who the hell is going to be scared of that"..ha. What gun is not to expensive, easy to shoot and easy to handle for the sole purpose of protection?]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117741 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117741 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? alot of things you can do without a gun, like good lighting with timers/sensors, dogs, alarm system with obvious signs, visibly secured doors/windows(not all glass), and many more…..

If you are afraid of violent confrontations including home invasions, then defensive training for your home specifically, and personal real self defense training(not sport type martial arts) is what you want if you don’t want a gun. Unless you are willing to build a fortress with armed guards, just knowing your home and how to defend it the only alternative without a gun. For example, if you live alone you cant rely on anything including dogs alarms etc to protect you, because someone that is willing to harm you for whatever reason, will without a doubt get past defenses. This means that you need to have more than one way of communicating to the outside, LTL options and you need a safe place to hold up until help arrives(this assumes help is still available). Its not a clear cut solution. Im not an expert, so please take my advice on getting professional training for your home specifically, with or without a gun.

The last thing I will say is build community, a strong community will be a good defense against crime and violence. A large group of dedicated moms on the watch, working together are more effective than police at this point in time.
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Theresa Whited wrote:After the LTL. Here are my thoughts if I did buy a gun. She says "you need a shotgun" I am 115lbs and don't they have a lot of kick? Then they say "a 9mm is good for you" even the add at the bottom says not good if you need to shoot to kill. I recently shot a G22 Gloc (still learning not sure spelling) and it was surprisingly easy http://mudfem.blogspot.com/ (a small video) every time I watch this video I think "who the hell is going to be scared of that"..ha. What gun is not to expensive, easy to shoot and easy to handle for the sole purpose of protection?

As for home defense guns, any gun is better than no gun. However, its my personal belief that a 12g shotgun is the most effective for the lack of penetration, range and power. Im sure someone will disagree

If you have never shot a 12g, go find somewhere to shoot one before you buy. If its too much a 20g or youth shotgun would work too. Although I own a pistol, I dont rely on it for home protection by itself.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117744 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117744 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
In that case I would recommend if you do make the choice to own a gun you should invest in a locked case to keep it in. Select one that is either too heavy to pick up, or can be secured with bolts from the inside. This way if thieves do come by again they will either be deterred, or have to work really really hard. The trail cam is a great idea, I would select one with IR so it will work at night. Make sure it's in a position to get a license plate # or faces as they enter / exit.

My roommates family had a similar incident with someone breaking into their cottage in Northern MI. They kicked the door down, ransacked the place stole a go-kart, electronics, ect.. They also did the same to the neighbors cabin. The neighbor only visits his property maybe once a year so he had devised a setup that dropped a very thick piece of lumber across the door from the inside. I have no idea how he did it, but it was like a medieval deadbolt. The robbers would not be deterred, so they took a chainsaw and cut a new door into the log cabin. once inside they found nothing of value and left. My roommates family reported it, then placed a trail cam in the woods overlooking the entrance to their driveway and cabin. A few months later the thieves came back to have another look around. The cam picked up their license plate #, the sheriff was notified and went out to ask him some questions. When he got to the guys house there was a shiny red go-kart sitting right out front next to the garage. The thief went to jail, probation violation, and also got some new charges.
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I will have a gun safe, I will take a conceal and carry class, I will learn my gun inside and out and shoot regularly to stay familiar and everything else we have spoken of. Just so we all know that there's not another "idiot with a gun".

I do believe the surveillance is the best protection. Unfortunately most of them are for computer users and that is sometimes hard for people in remote areas. The thing about is as long as you replace the batteries you can always delete old images and then if something did happen you would have it on the camera.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117759 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117759 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
I would like to remind folks to please state your position without suggesting that anybody on permies is anything less than perfect.

Also, if you quote a post that is outside of my comfort zone, I'm going to delete that too.

This issue does have controversy, so let's all please attempt to be respectful of other positions.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117764 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117764 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
What made the people of England free was the longbow, it was inexpensive and the people could protect themselves and their family from the lords, the bandits and the strong. It led to the sighing of the great paper{ The Magna Carta}

Se vis pachem para bellum, if I spelled it right means: If you wish for peace prepair for war.

Well, we don't have need to get ready for war, tho being able to make it unsafe for unkind people to hurt you and your loved ones, is more than a good idea. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117767 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117767 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
My dad was a gun collector, and his best friend owned a gun shop. Granted, we were in a small farm town as opposed to a big city, but my dad had me shooting before I started kindergarten. So, you probably already guess what side I'm on.

Like the others have said, you really want to be comfortable with a gun. Practice with it on a regular basis so you don’t get rusty. If you do lock it up, you’ll want to have it in a location that will be easily accessible in the event that someone does break in; often you don’t get much notice, and if it does happen, you will be panicky and will have a hard time opening the safe.

I'm 5'2"and about 110lbs, and I can handle a shotgun just fine. Shotguns look very daunting to a burglar. Plus, you don't have to be as good of an aim with a shotgun (again, you’ll be panicked and shaking if the worst occurs). The shot will not travel far, as opposed to a handgun. If there are people in adjacent rooms this will factor in. I have a Mossberg that came with two barrels, and I keep the shorter barrel on it. It makes it just a bit lighter, gives it a wider shot dispersion, and it’s easier to wield around. Skeet shooting is a good (and fun) way to get used to a shotgun.

As for the high number of people who get shot with their own guns- from what I’ve seen, they are usually the ones who never really learned the respect that goes with gun ownership (for example, always, always treat a gun as if it’s loaded, be aware at all times where the barrel is pointed, never mix alcohol and guns, etc). Living in the city gives a different perspective of guns than what someone would get in a farm town. There’s no hunting going on in the city, for example; usually, guns make the news as part of a crime.

If you plan on actually carrying your handgun with you, then a concealed carry class will be good; however, there are other classes that teach gun safety and self defense that may be more appropriate in your case.

Good luck!
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Lets not forget what my daughters calls "weapons of opportunity" and where I come from would be "surviving in the projects" ..ha. What could you keep handy to protect yourself? A bat, a shovel, my pop likes brass knuckles. What ever it is you keep under your bed or by the door (that is not a gun) just in case, lets hear it.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117779 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117779 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
I once traveled a long distance to pick up a friend, arived later than I knew. When I approached the back door, a ladys voice from the upper deck said" Please don't move" my friend hadn't mentioned I would be coming and his mother wanted to know who at that hour would be this far into the compound. I didn't move. I thought it very wise of this family. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117799 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117799 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117806 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117806 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
So with that being said guns are not the only weapons to use for self preservation. Archery is pretty deadly with the right person pulling the bow string. I am pretty sure I do not know of anyone who has managed to shoot themselves with a bow and arrow. It is a skill which has to be learned. This means spending time to learn how to do it, lots of time if you want to be good at it. If you do it well it is fun and there are others who share this love and it just adds to the numbers of people in your network. There are some other things but probably not really practical but still could be defensive. Hatchets can be thrown to take someone out, I have seen that done before in a reenactment, mock of course but still very deadly. Big knives work pretty well but if you lack strength they would not be a realistic option.

So if you are in a big city and homesteading there, do you really need a gun? They attract attention and where you going to go to teach your kids safe gun handling procedures. You would be better off with a dog and a baseball bat. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117807 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117807 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Brenda Groth wrote:ninja with samuri

I was wondering if anyone would bring up Asian weaponry, they do seem to be very creative with hidden metal stars and such. I think you would have to definitely be trained an knowledgeable if you want your hands and feet to be deadly weapons.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117817 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117817 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
A firearm is a tool like an ax or knife. not everyone has, wants or knows how to use an ax. its best if one who does not know how to use an ax, not use one till they can do so safely; this requires a bit of training. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117824 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117824 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Walter Jeffries wrote:

Theresa Whited wrote:So I am a vunerable women in the country

Get several dogs. Big dogs.

OK, ready for the circular argument? You might need a gun because of your dogs!

That's what happened to me, anyway. After 18 years of living in the woods of Vermont, I finally got a 22 (my mother's day gift). The day before, one of my dog got quilled. The new vet charges $400 to fix this, as opposed to $80 when the old vet did it. I have 4 dogs and after some quick math it seemed to me I might have to shoot some porcupines.

Ultimately, I didn't shoot any porcupines (yet) but I did use it to kill my Thanksgiving turkeys. I could only get within 3 feet of them and I was running out of time!]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117903 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117903 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117957 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117957 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117965 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117965 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
Having said that...yes, you do need a gun if you are homesteading. You will probably use it reluctantly, and hate having to use it, but there will be times when it's unavoidable... predators, porcupines that won't move on, terminally ill or injured livestock or pets when you are a long way from the nearest vet...etc, etc... maybe even a deer to supplement the food...and you will learn a lot about yourself and living and dying and mortality and respect...

Learn how to use it safely and teach your kids responsibly, and Always treat it like it's loaded...

A smaller hunting rifle / carbine is the gun i find most need of in a homestead situation. Shotguns are for hunting ducks...or if loaded with slugs they are an effective last resort close range defense gun if you are spending a lot of time in camp in serious bear country, they aren't that great for the applications i mentioned...

i hope you can find a quiet place to breathe some clean air and get to know your neighbours...]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117969 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117969 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Theresa Whited wrote:It was my neighbor who said "get a shotgun" and she is a mature, kind person. I'm not sure why this is so controversial or why anyone would be negative. The topic isn't about gun control or ownership it is simply your advice on how to protect your homestead. I'm a little shocked that there are such intense feelings about this. No one has much to say about surveillance? or is that a different topic?

Please let me tell you where I'm coming from. I was a California Armed Guard, and my family has had more than its share of Armed Service Members and police. I'm active in the NRA and keep an eye on stats, both from the US and worldwide. This is what I think.

Firearms are a hotbutton topic, no matter what country you're in. They are expressly made to kill. Killing is emotional. So people are emotional about their stands on firearms, whether it's panicked avoidance, obssessive need to own, something inbetween, or what-have-you. So I think that this is a subject where a little emotion is totally excusable, even understandable.

* Firearms are a good choice if you think you can kill someone. If you can't, don't have them on your property because it is possible they could be seized and used on you. I would hesitate to have 2 feet of rifle or shotgun for use inside the home because, while defensive and imposing, tight quarters maneuvering is difficult with such a large weapon.
** If you do get a gun, do not bring it home, stick it in a drawer, and forget it until you think you have a problem. Take it to the Range and fire it A LOT. A LOT A LOT. Get used to it. Revolvers are better for occasional, emergency use because you can leave them loaded without damage, such as can occur to an automatic or semiautomatic's clip mechanism.
* Surveillance is good but expensive because you have to pay someone else to watch your place.
* LTL options are excellent if you know how to use them.
** Pepper spray drifts in any kind of breeze, and if you're panicked and fire into the wind, it's very unpredictable. Kind of like trying to use a skunk!

** Baseball bats are good.
** We have Shinai (bamboo practice swords) by all the doors just in case, because someone charging out with a weapon that looks like three feet of razorblade is not condusive to a smooth robbery.

* Dogs are one of the best options! They make great rodent-killers, means you can put a good sign up that will make intruders want to go elsewhere, and they're good friends. Make sure you can control your dog! Something medium-sized or bigger, like a Australian Blue Heeler (30 - 40 lbs) can actually stop an intruder. Train to the word "attack", though you may have to get an expert for this.
* Take a self-defense class.
* Keyring pushknives can be on your keyring for emergencies. They are an ince of sharp "back off" to hold safely between your knuckles. If you can punch, you can use them.

Whatever you feel is the best for you, make sure you are familiar and comfortable with it. We have one dog (so far), lots of BEWARE OF DOG signs, and use shinai for deterrant purposes... so far have only had to use that on deer.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117983 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117983 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/list/40/2798#91505
Most country people in NZ have guns for shooting dinner. Generally a .22 and a .303. Sometimes a shotgun if there's a duck hunter in the household.
We have very different legal and philosophical attitudes toward gun-control over here.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117986 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/117986 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Kari Gunnlaugsson wrote: Having said that...yes, you do need a gun if you are homesteading. You will probably use it reluctantly, and hate having to use it, but there will be times when it's unavoidable... predators, porcupines that won't move on, terminally ill or injured livestock or pets when you are a long way from the nearest vet...etc, etc... maybe even a deer to supplement the food...and you will learn a lot about yourself and living and dying and mortality and respect...

Learn how to use it safely and teach your kids responsibly, and Always treat it like it's loaded...

I was thinking about this too. It is said that if you have livestock, you will have dead stock. We have had to put down a couple of goats and I don't think we could have done it without a firearm. We don't have ours for protection, they are unloaded and not readily available. We slaughter our own meat which was our primary reason for buying them. We started with a 22 handgun and then had to buy a rifle when my husband shot a pig who did not go down but was clearly in pain. We couldn't get close to him so now we have a rifle as well.

I also wanted a rifle because we have had several situations with dogs going after our chickens and foxes as well. We haven't had to shoot a dog so far, and I hope we never do.
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118012 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118012 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
It's somewhat like having insurance, You're betting you'll need it, the insurance company is betting you won't and you're hoping they win.

If you have one, you won't need it. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118041 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118041 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
If you are moving to the country, there will come a day when you will need a gun...I guarantee it. No, not to fend off armed robbers...the percentages of that happening there are much less than where you come from. Guns are tools just like a chainsaw or lawnmower. If you live in the country, you will eventually need one of each because there are lots of trees, lots of grass and there are lots of creatures that may need to die....for one reason or another, they may need your quick response to end their suffering.

For instance, a deer got hung up in a barbed wire fence and hung by it's hoof all night. By the time I approached it, the leg was broken and wild animals had been attacking the defenseless animal. The most merciful thing to do is kill it but one wants a quick and clean kill. This is most readily completed with the use of a gun.

Best to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, just like anything else that is vital to survival. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118044 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118044 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
if you are in doubt take a hunters safety class or some other program that will let you get a feel for it. IMO any tool is dangerous in inexperienced hands.

But i will say one thing ad rest my peace. Do not get a firearm on someone else's word.....]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118052 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118052 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? I have made a connection to where you are. I have it on pretty good authority, (my wife has lived near where you are), that the problem you have is on that is real similar to the one occurring in the meth capitol of the US which is just down the road from you about 3 hours. The locals really do not want to hurt you and would be really frightened by someone who, has a gun, who is a crazy city person who would shoot them for just being on your property. (legal or not) or you are somehow connected to the DEA, FBI, CIA, KGB or whatever 3 letter organisation you want to use. All of them are connected in some way so getting the word out that you are going to shoot the next person who comes on your property would be fairly effective. something else to keep in mind if there is nothing to steal they will leave you alone. Make all of the things you value not visible, if you look like you have something they will steal it and make sure your opinions of drug use is well known. We have had people who really worked pretty hard to "be friends" and came to our house just to have a look at our cabinets to see if we had any drugs they could steal. After finding out we dont bother with that stuff they really did not want to "be friends' so much any more. The meth addiction or other things they are on will make them brave to get the next dollar for the next high. Something else would be to make sure they think you have an arsenal of selected weapons that would kill with extreme prejudice any who would venture close to your well designed abode. All of this would not have to be true but they need to think that it is.

Unfortunately this will remain a problem that will never go away. My wife lived there more than 10 years ago and the problems in the rural areas have gotten worse as the time passes especially in the poorer counties in the midwest. You are an easy target since they view you as a "city slicker" so you will need to change the perception to crazy gun toten willing to shoot first and ask questions later person who would shoot them and have what is left prosecuted and turned over to the DEA. drawn, hung, quartered and sent to the four corners of the empire. If you need any help in the drawn and quartered department the wife and i may have a free weekend coming up. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118081 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118081 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
It's hard enough for a newcomer to become part of a close knit rural community without going out of your way to alienate people. And i think there is a lot more security to be had in having good friends and neighbours around you than in having everyone nearby afraid to have anything to do with you.

I'd honestly much rather have some stuff stolen off my place periodically and let it go than to have to live like that. Seriously, if it's that bad I'd really question if it was worth living there... If you showed up in my part of the world with the attitude Steve is recommending, I wouldn't have anything to do with you and neither would any of the other good people out here, you'd just miss out on so many friendships and when you needed a hand you'd be screwed.....why bother being in the country at all? you could live like that in the suburbs...]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118122 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118122 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? apple tree, last week, where it can take advantage of the gray water. Hope it takes hold.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118132 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118132 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Kari Gunnlaugsson wrote: Well, I am always dismayed and upset at the level of fear that is out there. Maybe I am blessed to live in a really special place, but I don't think my situation is that uncommon...i'm homesteading in the country and I have a great community of farm neighbours and zero concern about protecting my place, or violence or installing surveillance. I don't even have a lock on my door. IMHO this is about a sort of survivalist fantasy that seems common among those cloistered in suburbia and watching too much sensationalized television. It's a sad way of viewing the world and really it should be left behind in the city because it's not that helpful.

Having said that...yes, you do need a gun if you are homesteading. You will probably use it reluctantly, and hate having to use it, but there will be times when it's unavoidable... predators, porcupines that won't move on, terminally ill or injured livestock or pets when you are a long way from the nearest vet...etc, etc... maybe even a deer to supplement the food...and you will learn a lot about yourself and living and dying and mortality and respect...

Learn how to use it safely and teach your kids responsibly, and Always treat it like it's loaded...

A smaller hunting rifle / carbine is the gun i find most need of in a homestead situation. Shotguns are for hunting ducks...or if loaded with slugs they are an effective last resort close range defense gun if you are spending a lot of time in camp in serious bear country, they aren't that great for the applications i mentioned...

i hope you can find a quiet place to breathe some clean air and get to know your neighbours...

Very well spoken! For the past 6 years I've left the front door key in the front door lock...and I live 20 yards off a main country road. I'm a single woman also and the dogs are in the back, contained to guarding the livestock.

Before that I'd always lived way back in a holler...there's really no safer place to live. Your neighbors are all nosy and know instantly if someone strange has been at your place and, if they can see your house, they are usually watching with binoculars.

Another thing to remember, anywhere you may live.... don't keep anything at your house that you can't afford to lose. Anyone is welcome to anything in my house and I have nothing that anyone would want to steal. I'm always amazed when city folks feel scared to live in the country and feel more secure in the city...safety in numbers, perhaps?

Two guns that are indispensable for country living...a .22 rifle and a shotgun. You don't really need a handgun or rifle, you can kill a deer as easily with a slug from a shotgun than you can with a rifle. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118201 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118201 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118211 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118211 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Jay Green wrote:

If you are moving to the country, there will come a day when you will need a gun...I guarantee it. No, not to fend off armed robbers...the percentages of that happening there are much less than where you come from. Guns are tools just like a chainsaw or lawnmower. If you live in the country, you will eventually need one of each because there are lots of trees, lots of grass and there are lots of creatures that may need to die....for one reason or another, they may need your quick response to end their suffering.

For instance, a deer got hung up in a barbed wire fence and hung by it's hoof all night. By the time I approached it, the leg was broken and wild animals had been attacking the defenseless animal. The most merciful thing to do is kill it but one wants a quick and clean kill. This is most readily completed with the use of a gun.

Best to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, just like anything else that is vital to survival.

I was planning on keeping my powder dry and not saying anything on this thread (even though it was of great interest to me). However, I feel compelled to make two points and then one comment:

1. Well said Jay Green on the (infrequent but necessary) need to put animals down. When I slaughter anything bigger than a chicken, I am going to put one well placed .22LR round into the animal's head. It is as close to an "off" switch for the central nervous system of that animal as there can be. I HATE to see animals suffer. I have been around some real hacks when they slaughter, and it completely turns my stomach to think of that animal having to suffer because of their ignorance, poor planning, whatever. When the time comes to do the needful, you OWE it to that animal for it to be quick. "Nature is not sentimental" (Geoff Lawton), yet as stewards of our own livestock and stewards of the earth at large we are responsible to do the right thing when need be. To answer the original question, do you need a gun to homestead, "yes." It is like a chainsaw, a noisy powerful tool that can hurt you, but is necessary for certain tasks and demands your respect and proper training.

2. I am always saddened when I see discussion about taking the life of another human being. I am certain that no one has discussed this as a trivial matter. Personally it is altogether different for me. I have been in three theaters of combat, and I have been in situations where the exchange of bullets was very likely, but through divine providence it never took place. I consider myself very fortunate to have never had to do that, but the hours that you spend with that implement in your hand makes you think of what the flow chart must be. Make no mistake about it, taking a life is a very serious thing. I believe it comes down to a moral decision where you know that you must be correct in what you are doing for the right reasons or else it is a possibility that ought not to be considered at all and another course of action must be developed.

Comment: A .22LR revolver is quite handy for the above mentioned reasons regarding animals, and a shotgun (with the right shells) will likely take care of anything larger (vermin, pests, predators or game). Both of these could be purchased for less than $500 if you look around. I also think that one rifle capable of shooting a sporting game round is a good idea as well if your budget allows.

HOWEVER, Theresa if you are keeping a firearm to protect yourself from someone taking your life or causing grievous bodily harm, then what would be the deterrent from them taking your crops or livestock? Taking something from someone that they have earned/produced is equal to stealing the time it took them to earn/produce that item away from the finite total days they will live on this earth. If a person is outright murdered, all of the time of their life is taken at once. A firearm is not going to change the moral fiber of your geographical location. It seems heart breaking to live in a place where that is possible. The courage that it takes to pull the trigger to take another's life (in self defense) is far greater than the courage needed to live your dream somewhere else where it is far less likely to ever need to do that in the first place.

Best of luck to you.

Wilson]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118213 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118213 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118216 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118216 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118271 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118271 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118272 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118272 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? We had one doe taken, another mortally wounded. He haunted us for 10 days. We were afraid to let the children out of the house. I slept in the barn overhead but he would just strumb the fence, he knew I was in there, when I came in he would be over the fence. He's a good bear now.
An electric fence has done wonders and a light so I can see, to make a good bear, if rain shorts the fence.

They break into homes with people inside. One lady and her child were called for help trapped in her house while a bear trashed her home. The sherrif came the bear wouldn't leave, he shot the bear. Nut were calling his wife, saying they were going to kill the family for shooting the bear.

I use to like them but they're no fun any more.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118281 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118281 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118283 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118283 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

richard valley wrote:Ken, I can imagine having deal with a bear. We have a good deal of problems with bear in the mountains. For a long time they were protected, when a problem bear was caught he was released elsewhere where he would again be a problem.
We had one doe taken, another mortally wounded. He haunted us for 10 days. We were afraid to let the children out of the house. I slept in the barn overhead but he would just strumb the fence, he knew I was in there, when I came in he would be over the fence. He's a good bear now.
An electric fence has done wonders and a light so I can see, to make a good bear, if rain shorts the fence.

They break into homes with people inside. One lady and her child were called for help trapped in her house while a bear trashed her home. The sherrif came the bear wouldn't leave, he shot the bear. Nut were calling his wife, saying they were going to kill the family for shooting the bear.

I use to like them but they're no fun any more.

Richard, I wanted to continue the conversation but realized that it had more to do with bears than with guns, so I didn't want to take this thread off-topic. I have created another one at Living with Bears.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118360 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118360 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? local dea here in St. Clair, MO because I know my best bet is knowing the local law and they know me. I have teenagers and their friends tend to know where the drugs are before the law. I also agree that just like the city, there are good people and bad people where ever you are. I have lived in some very close neighborhoods that stuck together and we were happy kids playing in the streets all night and such. There where a lot of troubled youth in the city including me and we stuck together to keep from the gangs and guns. I have a big heart when it comes to people with bad circumstance that may just need a little help.

I grew up in North County, was born in Ironton MO, spent summers on a farm in Monitcello IL, and a family farm in Lonedell MO. I'm not just a city girl my fathers side is knee deep in drugs to the point where I have had police follow me just for my last name. I won't move because I already really enjoy my gardening, canning, neighbor who tells me where I can get sawdust, rock, and supplies afford ably. I know this area has good families that have been trying to get the meth out. It was my neighbors that pushed out the meth head on my property 3 years ago. I will inform the law when I smell someone cooking and I will get a gun and stay for my neighbors. It is a case where I would not be where I am with out my neighbors help digging my foundation with a tractor and dropping my mound of rock for building. Actually I don't think anyone has helped me like these folks have especially in the city. Its worth owning a gun and standing up for a safe place to live. The city is a good example of how bad neighbor hoods turn around all the time into nice places to live without having to move.

Thanks for all the ideas and advice on gun ownership, I have learned tons in this thread

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118369 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118369 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Theresa Whited wrote:What could you keep handy to protect yourself? A bat, a shovel, my pop likes brass knuckles. What ever it is you keep under your bed or by the door (that is not a gun) just in case, lets hear it.

I sleep much more soundly with my trusty machete tucked discreetly between my mattress and bedframe, easily accessible at arm's length.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118711 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118711 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? permaculture in the past because that is how it was done. They will just call it farming.

My family are all gun owners and I cannot remember a time where they ever pointed a gun at anyone in self protection unless they served in the military, the difference was the guns were 16 inches in diameter or mounted on a jet aircraft. They live in Missouri, Iowa, Michigan and Arkansas. Not one of them fear guns and this is probably why none of them has had to think about shooting someone, there is a confidence that comes from being able to protect yourself and feed yourself, you will not owe anyone any apologies. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118852 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/118852 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

I am clapping loudly and hurraying for this response! I was just about to quit reading and say this myself, so it was nice to see someone else get there first.

What IS everyone so scared about these days that they feel the need to be constantly on guard and defensive? We have lived on our little homestead for 20 years -- in what most of the people in this county refer to as the "wild west" -- where we have meth labs, pot growers and high speed car chases with shootouts -- even though we are in the middle of the boonies, right smack dab agains a few thousand acres of national forest (with bears, mountain lions, bobcats, etc. by the way). Yet I have never felt afraid walking around on our property or in the forest by myself at any time of the day or night. It simply never occurs to me to worry to that extent. I'm too busy enjoying the beauty around me or too busy dealing with my animals, garden, building projects and so forth.

We have never locked a door -- even when we have been gone for a few days at a time. In fact, our policy is that if someone needs something we have (which is not much) so bad they need to steal it, then they probably needed it more than we did. Since I have no intention of shooting anyone under any circumstances (mainly because I don't think I could -- it just isn't me) I would be a fool to pretend I would. My dad was a cop, but he never wore his gun. He always said that if you carry a gun you should be prepared to kill, and he didn't think he wanted, or needed, to do that. (Most people just looked at him and decided he was not to be messed with. He really didn't need the gun.) Anyway, I'm like that. I can get very angry but still have no desire to do bodily harm. However, if you mess with someone I care about, (including my much loved animals) you are the one who is going to need the gun -- not me.

It is my experience that people who act afraid and defensive look like victims. Victims get victimized because criminals are basically cowards and bullies. If you don't act, or look like a victim, people give you a wide berth. There are too many easier targets out there!

I also wanted to say that though I will never shoot a gun at another person or wild animal, we do keep a shotgun. It was my husband's grandfather's shotgun, so it has heirloom value. However, we would have gotten rid of it a long time ago despite the sentimental value, except that, as Kari says, a homestead may have other reasons to need a gun. We have had to put down several goats over the years when they were in pain from illness or injuries, and at least a couple of our dogs. (The nearest vet is over an hour away.) I do not want any creature to suffer, so for a quick death to ease suffering, a gun is an indispensible homestead tool. That is the ONLY reason we have one on the premises.

Anyway, that is just my two cents. We don't have those silly yard lights that you can see 10 miles away either. I prefer moonlight in the country -- its why I moved here. If you like lights, you should really be in a city. There are plenty of them there.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/119373 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/119373 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
I think everyone who've pointed out the essential difference in perspective between urban gun issues and rural gun issues are spot on. I personally don't think guns should be carried at all in urban environments. Just break down the range of any firearm you could fire in a city and look at how many people could accidentally be shot in such a densely populated place. I think that in urban environments we really need to look at other options for self-defense.

In a rural setting, however, a gun is a necessary tool. A seventh generation farmer in the Ottawa Valley where my family had property in the past had to keep one by the front door, not because he was paranoid of intruders, human ones at least, but because if he didn't shoot them, the bears would tear apart his apple trees. Big omnivores can do LOTS of damage.

I think it is important to remember what an emotional issue gun ownership can be. People are often not as noble as they ought to be, and bears are worse.

-CK]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/119409 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/119409 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Theresa Whited wrote:Awesome, I didn't know the legalities of tresspassing and I will check my state and fed laws on owning and concealing or if anyone has the fed laws that would be great here. I do know that if they are in your home that's a different set of laws. What I am getting is everyone, and I mean EVERYONE is telling me "you better get a gun, your going need a gun". For example lets say I have had the feeling someone is watching me, at this time all I have is simple sheathed knife (whole other subject) but it is on my hip and some pepper spray next to it might at least let a trespasser know that I am aware. A decent size dog by my side highly trained would be a big plus. If I am in my home and the dogs going crazy that might be a case where I would be more likely to shoot to kill if they enter. What I like about the dog idea is in case I'm not home but if they are committed they simply shoot the dog that I love. Thats when I thought of the bees because you can't just kill bees and they are easy to keep and good for the environment. Next step, Bear traps...ha whats the law if you severely injure someone that trespasses.

I own four firearms. 2 9mm handguns, a 12 gauge and a 25-06 hunting rifle. We have six cans of pepper spray in cars, by the door, etc. I also have two surveillance cameras just in case.

I think that a 12 g is too much for you to handle comfortably. Even with a good recoil pad, it isn't something I look forward to shooting. BUT a 20 gauge is every bit as effective as a home defense round, a little lighter, and half the kick. If I could do it over again, I might go with the 20 over the 12.
That said, a 9mm is a perfectly good handgun round. It will probably stop the assailant. On the other hand, the shotgun will definitely stop the assailant. The shotgun ends the conflict if you hit the target.

But, here you are in the country. I agree that you do need a gun. In this case, a shotgun with 00 buck should do, most likely for an invasion of wild dogs/coyotes. I have a buddy that had to fight coyotes off of his chickens and goats one night. He only had bird shot, so his kill count was zero. He nearly ran out of ammo before they gave up. Could this happen to you

Probably not, but better to be prepared and not need it.

This is just my humble opinion, but I would obtain at least three firearms, in the following order. Shotgun, Pistol, and a 22. If you ever might hunt, add a 243 hunting rifle.

First off, you are right about getting training on it all and keeping the firearms safe. The best way to do this is to train the kids as well, and then lock up the firearms that aren't on your person.

Best of luck to you...

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/119541 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/119541 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/124069 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/124069 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
I support the advice of previous posters that if you are apprehensive about fireams not to own one. If you want one, get trained by a professional not your uncle Moe. A lot of people have been robbed in their home while owning a firearm simply because they had to pass through the area occupied by the intruder to get to the gun or the key to the lockbox. Most people will be so overcome by paralyzing fear with an intruder in their home at night that remembering a combination or loading a gun goes out the window.

The most important thing is that you shouldn't let anyone you don't implicitly trust or can't keep their mouth shut know you have a firearm on your person or in your home. When a person intent on doing you harm knows you are armed it only escalates a minor conflict to where deadly force is usually the only option a person thinks they have left.

Also, deterring an intruder wether in the city or in the country is easier and safer than getting them out of your home once they are in it. I don't mean putting up a "protected by Smith & Wesson" sticker in your window either because the kind of person who will break into your home knowing you have weapons is the kind of person who will kill you before you have time to react in most circumstances. A dog, an alarm sticker, an actual alarm or a locked door and window usually staves off burglaries because the theif just looks for an easier target.

As for using mace on a tresspasser, if all they are diong is passing through on your outside property it is still a jailable assault offense; wether the tresspasser decides to push the prosecution is another matter.

Having a long-gun on a homestead is a good idea though, not for defense but to make the hunting and putting down of animals easier. If you are not keen on guns there are other humane ways to do these things.

Even a whole town, armed to the teeth with legal to own firearms, will not help against a wayward Government though. The government has more resources, more men, airpower and more weapons that will kill you from a distance further away than your guns will reach. That being said, it is still noble to die for what you believe in if living for it isn't an option.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/124749 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/124749 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Theresa Whited wrote:1 A very high number of people got shot with their own gun.
2 Your more likely to get robbed just for the gun.
3 Kids killing kids with parents gun.

1. Be well trained and dont do stupid things.
2. Houses in the country where the owners did not have guns got robbed because other would use their guns.
3. Be good parents and home school.

I grew up in the country where kids shot soda cans in the school parking lot during the lunch hour with the principal watching for 'safety'. I dont know of a single person that was ever shot in my home town and most of us all owned and carried guns. Here at my homestead having some kind if gun really makes it easier to deal with snakes, coons, hawks, coyotes, skunks, and other things that threaten my garden and livestock. Even if its just a good 1250 feet per second .22 cal air rifle; I would say having a gun is very nice to have. I would hate to try and club a skunk that was killing my chickens.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/124957 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/124957 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? chickens. Used to be an understanding about chicken killing dogs , not anymore. Every neighbor that has promised to pay me for my loss has never done so. Oh , well. I will not shoot raptors , illegal , and I think they are too beautiful . They don't seem to return so habitually , and they don't take my full sized birds. Just have to protect my little ones for a bit longer. As far as human predators , unless you are held by religous oath to pure pacifism and held to allow others to do violence to you , then a shotgun can come in handy. One Christmas morning at 3am - just me, my two beautiful women - wife and daughter- were sleeping and I heard a loud knock on door. Some guy in a hoody wanting a ride to next town. Bull - I told him he better get the hell out and he starts arguing - I am way out in the sticks - So I cocked the shotgun real loud and repeated myself - Ran like a whitetail deer. If I had been working nightshift , who knows ? I called cops one time for an urgent matter - 45 minutes it took a state trooper to get here. As far as handguns - 22cal. is very easy to handle and actually one of the deadliest rounds. Even if you don't kill an intruder, no one is going to be thinking of rape with a piece of hot lead in their belly.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/124969 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/124969 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? homestead, "live traps" is a whole different matter.
IMHO, live traps have no place on a homestead. If you are not willing to kill 'it', learn to live with 'it'.

Too often, some 'kind hearted' soul, rather than killing a problem, merely traps it and then gives 'it'
to somebody else down the road.
Then, the other person loses a few chickens until they kill 'it'.
To live in the country, one must learn to kill the occasional problem, or learn to live with their surroundings.

In many states it is illegal to relocate a trapped animal off of your property.
Traps are made to capture animals for skinning.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125055 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125055 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

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-CK]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125070 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125070 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

P Thickens wrote:* Dogs are one of the best options! They make great rodent-killers, means you can put a good sign up that will make intruders want to go elsewhere, and they're good friends. Make sure you can control your dog!

Agreed. Dogs are even more important than guns. Dogs are like guns with brains. They work 24/7 guarding, killing pests and any predators too foolish to not heed the warning signs and stay out of our fields. The dogs herd the livestock and keep it in the places it should be. I also have guns but if I had to pick one or the other I want dogs first, a pack.

There was a news story where they were interviewing criminals and the perps overwhelmingly said they would rather go up against a homeowner with a gun than a dog because the homeowner probably wouldn't shoot them but they never knew what the dog would do.

Best option, have both, train the dogs and learn to use the guns. Both are tools. Excellent tools.

Cheers,

-Walter Jeffries
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop

Check out our Kickstarting the Butcher Shop project at:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sugarmtnfarm/building-a-butcher-shop-on-sugarmountainfarm]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125097 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125097 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
-CK]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125114 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125114 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Theresa Whited wrote:
I grew up in the city and even owning a gun is dangerous.

Owning a gun in the city and owning a gun in the country have two very different meanings. A gun in the city is there to kill someone else. Many people who live in the city all their life fear guns, because the only thing they have connected guns to is murder.

A gun in the country, while it could certainly be there for protection from humans, has so many other uses. I've shot a lame calf that couldn't stand up for months, rabid skunks and other mammals that wander onto the property, and of course deer for food. In a city the very rare rabid animal would have animal control to come pick it up in minutes, or a lame animal would be euthanized. I'm not going to sit around waiting for someone to come out to my property and take care of something I am perfectly capable of handling quickly, efficiently, and cheaply.

I grew up in the country and live in the country now. I've always been surrounded by guns and have been taught how to use them responsibly and safely. My grandfather made and sold bullets and pistols. When I'd go to his house he'd have several pistols lying on the coffee table. Nobody ever picked one up and shot anybody with it because everyone was taught to respect them, not fear them. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125116 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125116 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Chris Kott wrote:I'm with you, Walter. I'd like to know what you'd get charged with, though, if a pack of farm dogs was to kill an intruder, even armed and dangerous. I'd hate to condemn a dog to death just because it did its job.

The statues specifically discuss that working dogs are at large to protect their crops, livestock etc.

Most of all, the dogs act as a deterrent. Predators stay back away from us mostly for the simple reason that the dogs are here. The dogs mark their territorial boundaries with their visual presence, barking, howling, growling and scent. A rational being stays away from them. An irrational being is likely sick such as rabid or on illegal drugs, neither of which should be on our property. The dogs are vaccinated and our first defense. This makes it so I rarely have to back them up with a gun.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125126 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125126 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Theresa Whited wrote:3 Kids killing kids with parents gun.

We just had a Spokane police officer's 9 year old girl shoot herself with his service revolver. This is probably an example of irresponsible gun ownership. You need to take your kid to the gun range by about four and help them shoot the gun so they get familiar with guns and teach them gun safety, including don't handle a gun without supervision. If you just hide it away from the kids, then it becomes the forbidden fruit to a kid that is clueless about guns in all ways. If your kid still shoots someone in spite of the training, then you have different problem, the gun is just a symptom.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125283 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125283 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
New guy on the forum here. It has always interested me how there is a very different view of firearms between urban and rural people. Not that its good or bad just different experiences shape peoples views in different ways. I grew up with a house full of guns and was actively shooting as a kid. My dad was the local gunsmith. I have over 30 in my home half of which are handguns. I am almost always armed unless I am going somewhere that my CCW isn't allowed like the bank or police station. Both of my girls compete on shooting teams (no killing something is not the only use or purpose for a gun). There is a lot of propaganda that gets bantered around on all sides of the gun ownership issue. But I will tell you that business of a woman is more likely to have her gun taken away and used on her only applies to people who are not willing to protect themselves and it applies equally to men and women. That principle also applies to ANY defensive weapon be it a baseball bat, knife , etc.

As with anything that has a potential danger, precautions should be taken. That goes for everything from an automobile to the drain cleaner under the kitchen sink. Safety is always your first goal. Before you totally rule out owning a firearm I would suggest you take a couple training courses and learn how to use one properly and safely. I suspect that once you learn to use one properly and confidently some of your fears will dissipate. Unfortunately, the world we live in sometimes presents situations in which we are forced to protect ourselves. It may be an intruder with harmful intent it may be a stray dog with rabies. A firearm is a practical way to protect yourself in those situations.

My two cents,

Ray]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125287 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/125287 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132676 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132676 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
Besides, here in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, I was stopped by a land owner, blocked in with 2 vehicles, the hounds were released and he had a hand gun on his truck seat. He called the police and the police officer told the land owner off and that under these circumstances the police are to be called. I probably could have sued the pants off the land owner, but it was one of those strange circumstances where I could see his side...right and legal aren't necessarily the same thing. Yes, I had the legal authority to be on his land(and under orders to check the government facility on the land...it was a weird situation that I wasn't too happy with).

I guess I can see the point of having to put down animals as a legitimate reason for having a gun though. It really is a humane way of putting an animal out of its misery.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132699 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132699 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

But you're right--a gun is not a NECESSITY, but it does make a homesteader's life a lot more convenient. Like toilet paper, cell phones...the list goes on.

Edit: Just in case it's not clear the above is me being facetious--not argumentative. I just think that it's a good idea for a homesteader to at least have a good rifle for livestock and (in a secondary role) home defense.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132702 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132702 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
They all contributed in decimating my first couple of gardens. I finally decided to go on the offensive and got my hunting license. Now, I can have a real possibility of raising sweet corn, and get some fruit off my fruit trees.

For those who have never lived with this many wild critters, and tried to garden, it's almost impossible. A gun seems to be the only efficient way to get the population down to something reasonable.

And bad guys really pay attention to shotguns.

Finest regards,

troy]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132742 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132742 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

Steve Palmer wrote:Sorry to say it guys but it is or becoming that bad in parts of Missouri, Iowa, Illinois but there is hope, it is not too hard to find the good people. Most have little hope in those depressed areas of the world. They were sold a bill of goods years ago by our Dept. of Agriculture to stop growing anything and raise cattle plus plant kentucky 31 fescue all over the place. It was not known that that stuff is almost worthless as a cattle forage or as the locals say a cow can stand belly deep in it and starve to death. As an added bonus for them the mines have closed which was a good source of work, coal, lead, and iron ore either played out or were closed due to pollution problems. Unless you have attached yourself to the government teat in corrections or other stuff what do you have, not very much. You cannot blame someone for finding anything to make the pain of reality go away even if will kill you. Most of the agencies in these areas just look the other way because there is no treatment or there is no one to send to even try to fix it. The rural counties in Missouri where i live have a tax base that is so low that that are lucky to even have the funds for a sheriff and a couple of deputies. It really pays to do the research on the place you have chosen to start a new life with a homestead, some of the places out there are not "city folk" friendly.

I think that is a fairly accurate assessment of things here Steve. What part of Mo are you from? I'm in Festus about a half hour south of St Louis.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132745 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/132745 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

P Thickens wrote:

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Brad Davies wrote:If an attacker / robber / tresspasser

It is not legal to shoot someone for trespass in the US.

Depends on the circumstances and state. Every firearm owner should do her research before presuming to have a working weapon in the home.

we have the make my day law in oklahoma and if thay are in your house it is shoot to kill but im sure for tresspssers ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148211 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148211 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148224 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148224 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
Let me be completely clear. I am Canadian. I have no desire to adopt NRA-style politics; we are reasonable, and have no need of such. I love dogs, as you can probably guess from my stance. This is not about handguns in cities, guns and gang violence, or good ideas about the right to stand up for one's rights and beliefs taken to reactionary extremes. When a farmer's orchard or food forest is being ripped apart for the fruit at the top of the trees because the bear is hungry, the farmer needs his rifle or shotgun. If no one has ever been closer than spitting distance to a wild bear except in a zoo (I have, twice, and the one in the garbage dump by my cottage was only a little less scary for being half-stuck in the green waste dumpster, not like the one I met picking blueberries on a trip in eastern Ontario. Both times were around late July, and so they were well fed, otherwise the one in the woods would have eaten well) I don't think that any have a basis for opinion other than wishful thinking. If there are farmers who can post to this thread who regularly deal with bear problems, with or without firearms, I would love to hear their sides. Otherwise, this sounds like some very idealistic wishful thinking mixed with equal quantities of paranoia.

As an addendum, traps can be set, and they can range from the pepper bombs mentioned, to traditional snares, deadfalls, spring traps with spikes and such, you get the idea. I plan on having a diversity of foraging animals and lots of small children running around my property; I challenge anyone to find a way to make traps and such work in a safe and predictable manner in such a scenario; why do you think we don't line our properties with proximity claymores?

Have a nice day

-CK]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148247 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148247 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? deer that were pissed off enough to try and hurt somebody. Guns are why the children with us (including me at about age 5, running from a moose) are all still safe and sound. Ok, my dad may have been able to scare those animals off with something else, but he also may not have been able to. Wild animals are wild, that means unpredictable. I also agree with the responsibility of proper gun care though, where I grew up we all took a hunter safety course as soon as we were old enough. I still remember all I learned in that course, still have my target from the test day too! ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148267 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148267 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? USGS bear safety

As a woman who lives alone, I am more than happy to have a gun on hand, but only for human problems. I suppose it would come in handy to put down a suffering animal. No bears at my current place, but I've worked in bear country. Where black bears are hunted, they usually flee from humans, like most animals. Where I was working in roadless areas of Alaska, accessible pretty much only by helicopter, the black bears were unfamiliar with people and more likely to follow them or tree them. ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148275 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148275 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?
I have had to put down injured animals without a gun. I am not doing that again.

]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148277 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148277 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

R Scott wrote:A gun is a highly specialized TOOL. Like all specialized tools--sometimes the job can be done with more common tools, sometimes it can't.

I have had to put down injured animals without a gun. I am not doing that again.

That is correct. I've noticed that if you didn't grow up with guns then the thought of gun ownership is freighted with all kinds of conflicted meanings. When is the last time you agonized over buying an electric drill? A gun is just a rapid, long range hole driller.

I use guns all the time on our farm. I put down animals to be culled. I kill predators. I shoot squirrels that are robbing the orchard. I've shot hundreds of animals over the course of my life; mostly cull chickens. At some point you see death on a farm for what it is: necessary and something that should occur instantaneously. Guns give you the means to accomplish this.

Yes, a gun is necessary on a farm where livestock is raised.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148300 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148300 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? deer, whatever. I think it's inhumane. I doubt the smartest dog would be able to do a risk assessment in the same way a human could; I won't kill my dogs to save on bullets. In fact, I find it morally deplorable to throw away life like that, or to give the dirty work to an animal who will sell its life selflessly for love of and loyalty to its owner.

On a more pragmatic tone, I suppose one's own safety is a personal concern; you are free to take as many chances on half-measures as you care to, as long as it doesn't interfere with what I need to do to ensure my safety and that of my family. As to pepper spray, good luck. I'm sure there are those who can use it effectively. I have practiced a couple of times in controlled circumstances. It is hard enough to hit a stationary target that won't kill you if you miss; I am not going to try that with an angry moving target that will get even more irritated if any spray should, by sheerest chance, I assure you, get its way into the thing's eyes.

If your design plan is successful, it will complicate itself, as opposed to simplifying, according to Geoff Lawton in a recent podcast, 195 unless I miss my guess. That means that things you don't expect or don't plan to include will likely include themselves in your system. Keeping in mind that most permaculture systems will have as a primary objective the production of food for human and animal consumption, wild animals of all sizes will be drawn to the area. It may simply be a matter of needing to off dozens of squirrels and raccoons for the sake of keeping your fruit harvest, and if I didn't need to see returns of any kind off the property, I might not use a gun. I might use a bow (I've always been a fairly good shot, but a Bear compound at 125 lbs shoots so straight you might as well be using a crossbow), but only if I wanted to hone my skills. I might get all my youngest family members to have at them with sling shots. Hell, I might string snares in all the fruit trees, and gather a harvest of strange fruit for the chickens and/or pigs. But I think that if things need removal and the only way is killing, a gun seems more humane.

I don't understand why this is even a topic of such debate. I love the earlier power drill simile. It is quite apt, as you would also never let a child play with such a tool, for fear of the consequences. In fact, I don't know of any other tools with such an availability of training and support for new operators, nor can you go to a drilling range to hone your skills in a controlled environment. Nor does one look for alternatives to a tool that does an exemplary job under the circumstances for which it was designed; a power drill is perfectly safe if one doesn't try to perform brain surgery with it (at least without training).

To be honest, I'm not a fan of firearms. As I mentioned, I like bows. You have to try really hard to hurt yourself in a meaningful way with one (you can do so through ignorance, but usually only pinches and broken skin barring mechanical failure, and woe betide you should you forget your arm guard), and there is no accidental firing, as you have to draw first. The only place I would feel firearms would be better is in a home invasion scenario, or if you happen to literally bump into an ornery bruin (or moose or anything that could spit or slit me for annoying it). I simply feel that half-measures and wishful thinking are a poor substitute for a reasonably cheap and effective tool.

I really hope everyone on this thread keeps in mind that we're talking about guns on the homestead, not in the heart of an urban centre, where in my humble opinion they serve no purpose other than to take human life. But in a rural setting, I feel guns are a necessity.

-CK
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Kari Gunnlaugsson wrote:I also wanted a rifle because we have had several situations with dogs going after our chickens and foxes as well. We haven't had to shoot a dog so far, and I hope we never do.

Check your state laws. Even if they are 'going after your livestock' you may be charged with animal abuse if you shoot a dog. In many states you are required to call the warden. If you get convicted of animal abuse they make take away your right to own animals, both pets and livestock. You could get listed in an online offenders list coming to a web server near you. All bad. Actually shooting the dog is probably not necessary so be cautious.

Not only that, but a dog that is 'going after the livestock' may be a trained herding dog that is working on herding them together and you miss-interpret what they are doing and think they are attacking. Just because you see dog 'chasing' livestock does not mean it was out to kill it.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148385 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148385 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148408 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148408 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions?

A gun is just a rapid, long range hole driller.

Excellent! And so true. I love this phrase and may borrow it from time to time! ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148691 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/148691 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? ]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/149222 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/149222 Is a gun necessary on a homestead? Is there any other solutions? 1) Work with local law enforcement. Hold a community meeting, invite them to attend and explain your issues. They will help if given an understanding of the situation.
2) Less than lethal weapons are great unless you need a lethal weapon
3) Guns are unfortunately a necessary evil in many places. Take classes, buy something that you are comfortable with and keep it in a lockbox. This is a handgun requirement in California.]]> http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/156380 http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13016/156380