<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0">
	<channel>
		<title><![CDATA[permies: "farm income"]]></title>
		<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/forums/f-41/farm-income</link>
		<description><![CDATA[The newest discussed topics in the forum "farm income"]]></description>
		<generator>JForum - http://www.jforum.net</generator>
			<item>
				<title>What legalities or gov requirments are involved?</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I have heard stories and seen reports about FDA raids on organic farms. That leads me to this question.<br /> <br /> Many have talked about selling their surplus.  Being a hard core independent minded libertarian capitalist I think that is a grand idea.   <br /> <br /> What legal/regulatory requirements, if any, are there to selling such surplus farm goods to local markets?  For example,  I am going to have a nice blackberry crop this year.  Much of it I plan to freeze for personal use but I may sell some at a local farmers market.  If I start doing things like that am I going to have to worry about having some gov bureaucrat on my back?<br /> <br /> If not, at what scale of production does such a thing come into play?<br /> <br /> Ray<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14674/130475</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14674/130475</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, May 15 2012 14:36:28 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Ray Cover]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>farms , circa 2050</title>
				<description><![CDATA[a view towards how things may change<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://persquaremile.com/2012/05/10/farming-circa-2050/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+psm-articles%2Ffeed+%28Per+Square+Mile%29" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://persquaremile.com/2012/05/10/farming-circa-2050/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+psm-articles%2Ffeed+%28Per+Square+Mile%29</a>]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14653/130308</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14653/130308</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, May 14 2012 14:48:01 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Morgan Morrigan]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Advertising </title>
				<description><![CDATA[I'm not sure what category this fits into so I put it in this one, hope that's OK. I've started a garden business and want to keep everything permie like but my current advertising isn't getting any joy. What should and shouldn't I say when it comes to trying to persuade people to take me on and to use permaculture methods?<br /> <br /> Thanks Permies :-)]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14585/129673</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14585/129673</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, May 10 2012 15:04:33 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Wenderlynn Bagnall]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Need Recommendations For a Cash crop ?</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Hi folks, I live off-grid in eastern Utah zone 5. I have about 3/4 acre and plenty of water and good soil. I am looking for an easy to grow low labor intensive crop that will bring in enough money to pay for property taxes and a little extra. Any suggestions ?<br /> <br /> I am looking at asparagus, sweet corn, and raspberries but would love to hear what other people are growing and selling ?<br /> <br /> Here is a vid of my off-grid cabin and land under construction:<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIl_Eq6vRZU" target="_blank" >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIl_Eq6vRZU</a><br /> <br /> Thanks<br /> <br /> LaMar]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14548/129425</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14548/129425</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, May 9 2012 06:29:11 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[LaMar Alexander]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>ABOUT AN AD ON PERMIES FOR THE SALE OF A COW</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I read an ad by a person who said he had a cow that he wanted to sell. He said that the cow was due to freshen in about a week from when he wrote that was two about two months ago. The ad was on this site. But I can't find that ad any more. I also forgot the name of the person who put that ad on Permies. I think her name starts with S and I'n sure she is a woman. I was just curious if the cow gave birth to a calf now and if she was able to sell the cow or the cow is still in her family and her family is milking the cow.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14417/128388</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14417/128388</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, May 2 2012 17:35:25 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Satish Bhardwaj]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>I had the opportunity to check out TERA</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Last weekend at PAX East, I had the opportunity to check out TERA, an upcoming action MMO. Buzz has been in the air about TERA for quite some time, but it was only last weekend that i had a chance to go hands-on with it. First things first. TERA advertises itself as a “true action combat” MMO, <a class="snap_shots" href="http://tera.igxe.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">tera gold</a>due to the fact that the emphasis is on skill, positioning, and timing to win fights. There is no point-and-click or tab-targeting. Instead, players aim most of their skills greatly akin shooter games. It will probably come as no surprise to you that TERA also fully supports a controller set-up in addition to standard keyboard and mouse. There are seven races and eight classes to choose from, and no factions to speak of. Everyone picks their allies and enemies regardless of race (and really, isn’t that how any idealized world should be? )#).<br /> <br /> At PAX East, there were a large number of Pcs available for people to stop by and try the game out. These all had different classes set up on them so people could sample the various playstyles. My appointment, however, was quite a bit more exciting than what was on the show floor. My four other fellow reporters and I were treated to Twilight Valley, an end-game (levels 58-60) party dungeon. With a brief introduction to the dungeon, we dove right on in.<br /> <br /> Our party consisted of a Lancer (the tank), a healer (I don’t remember if it was a Mystic or a Priest), a damage Warrior, a Sorcerer, and a Slayer (melee dps). I was assigned the Slayer. While I normally don’t play a melee dps role in other MMOs, I was pretty happy with this setup since I’d never set my hands on the game before in my life. Some of the other media folks had tried it at least a couple times before, and were thus given trickier roles. As we played throughout the easier part of the dungeon, we were given tips in our headsets by our guides for the demo. While we were a little clumsy at first, with our helpful guide’s assistance, we soon began to really work together as a group. And just in time, too, because after only a few groups of weak enemies, <a class="snap_shots" href="http://bladeandsoul.igxe.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">BAS gold</a> we ran into the boss (or BAM - Big Ass Monster - as they are labeled in TERA).<br /> <br /> He was an enormous centaur-like monster with some killer charges and stomps. It became immediately clear that no one would want to stand in front of that thing besides our trusty Lancer. Our casters remained at range, as was fitting, and the Warrior and I attempted to stay behind the BAM. This sounds easier than it actually was. The BAM kept charging around and changing direction, and a couple times our Sorcerer actually drew his attention! Also, in addition to worrying about my position, I had a job to do. As the Slayer, my role was to try to knock down our enemy as much as possible.<br /> <br /> Not only did a knockdown prevent my party from taking damage while he was down, but we were also able to do extra damage to him as well. Several minutes later, the BAM fell like a tree. No one had even come close to dying! It was a challenging, but extremely satisfying experience, and despite the fact that I was in a role that i don’t normally play, I utterly enjoyed it. TERA certainly looks to be a unique and action-packed experience. The open beta occurs next weekend (starting April 20th) with the game launching May 1st. <a class="snap_shots" href="http://runescape.igxe.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">RS gold</a> will have a standard monthly subscription.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14185/126603</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14185/126603</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Apr 19 2012 23:40:13 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[melinda xie]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Wanting to start a farm using Fukuoka's farming techniques....</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Hello everyone, this is my my first post here, and I'm very new to farming and the way of life associated with it - so forgive me if I'm really out of my element at the moment, but I'm trying to learn. To be straight to the point, I'm planning on starting a farm in the Philippines (3-4 hectares of land); this idea was first proposed to me by my wife's family who come from a long line of farmers there. I've been doing a lot of thinking about what life would be like if I did start a farm there; and how involved do I want to be with the farm besides the business side of it; so I started doing greater research into the lifestyle of farming and the different skills and practices of farming used in Asian countries. Well, I came across Masanobu Fukuoka and his philosophy and methods of farming, and it left a mark on me for sure. Not only do I see the beauty in this style of farming, but I can see how it makes practical sense for our health and well-being, not to mention the benefits from a business point of view.<br /> <br /> What I really would like to know is, how can I practically make Fukuoka's methods a reality for my future farm? No farmer in the Philippines I could hire will know these kind of organic/natural techniques of farming, so how can I possibly learn these methods and also teach them to my farmers? I'm planning on reading "The One-Straw Revolution", but is this book alone able to prepare someone to start farming like him? <br /> <br /> Just to be clear, this isn't something I want to do to make money or get rich; it's a way of life I greatly admire, and I feel like this might be an opportunity for me to live the kind of life both me and my wife want for our family so we can get back to a more traditional and simple way of living, which is more fulfilling and gratifying than living in the corporate dominated culture here in America. Any help or advice anyone could provide would be immensely appreciated - cheers! ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14051/125373</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/14051/125373</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, Apr 13 2012 00:22:32 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Brian Marchesseault]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>I am not greedy....</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Just looking for a way to build our homestead on permaculture principles for idealistic reasons. We love food and beauty from the earth. This spring was gloriously colorful. I want to be able to support this lifestyle and to prosper in it. Why pay for gym membership and expensive herbal supplements when I get up and work like a pioneer and then pluck my own medicine. I would love to see my neighbors hold on to theirs and hope to create niches for each others yields. All this requires that I transition from working overtime in my outside job and make the difference up in farm income. Certainly the savings to our home adds up and is surely income. Salatins book "You Can Farm " lists the ten best and worst farm enterprises. I envision a combination of CSA market garden , Pastured poultry and Herbal Medicines. From you alls experiences - what are some of the best and worst permaculture enterprises? Thanks for any input.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13951/124710</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13951/124710</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Apr 8 2012 07:05:12 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[wayne stephen]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Farm to Table</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Hello again.<br /> <br /> I've mentioned elsewhere that my wife and I own a restaurant.  It's medium sized, with 65 seats (scaling to 85 in the summer with outside seating).  We serve primarily breakfast and lunch, focus on local sourcing, organic where it makes sense, and other aspects of sustainability such as using compostable to-go containers.  Our menu is heavily meat oriented (though we do have quite a few vegetarian options), focusing on pork, though chicken and beef figure prominently.  Of course, with a heavy breakfast focus, we serve a lot of eggs and potatoes.<br /> <br /> I tell you all this because I thought, in a discussion on farm income, it would be interesting to know how much product a single mid-sized restaurant consumes.  It may help with ideas about how much a direct-to-restaurant sales strategy might be worth.<br /> <br /> In 2011, a sample of what we purchased is:<br /> <li>3400 pounds of bacon, </li><li>1180 pounds of ham </li><li>954 cases (171,720) eggs, </li><li>475 gallons of half 'n half,</li><li>1065 gallons of milk</li><li>1100 pounds of Cheddar cheese</li><br /> So, our restaurant consumed 130 pigs' worth of bacon, the egg production of 575 chickens, and the milk production of just one cow.  We buy enough cheese, though, to keep a small herd of cows busy.  In addition to the Cheddar, we bought between 1500 and 2000 pounds of other cheeses, from pepper jack to chevre (goat), in a variety of sizes and quantities.<br /> <br /> A friend of mine has a restaurant, similar in size to ours that focuses heavily on meat.  He buys pigs by the half, two halves a week and consumes everything he buys.  Between us, that's a lot of hog.<br /> <br /> I've been knocking around the idea of buying a farm and setting up a farm-to-table system of food production to offset the grocery bill for our restaurant, which last year was over $200,000.  If on-farm production could supply even half of what we consume, that's an operational budget of over $100K for a farm.  I don't know what kind of farm it would take to produce that much product in a sustainable way, but it seems like that much money is a reasonable base to start from.<br /> <br /> Any thoughts?<br /> <br /> Thanks.<br /> <br /> J.D.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13933/124572</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13933/124572</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, Apr 6 2012 21:28:41 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[J.D. Ray]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>News Story: Food for 9 Billion</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Trying to balance reading the Permies forum and watching the evening news, I was surprised to find a juxtaposition of topics when this story came on:<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/globalhealth/jan-june12/food9billion_04-03.html" target="_blank" >http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/globalhealth/jan-june12/food9billion_04-03.html</a><br /> <br /> While I'm somewhat concerned about the idea of teaching people to be reliant on fertilizer for growing crops, at the core, this is a good project.<br /> <br /> Cheers.<br /> <br /> J.D.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13876/124138</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13876/124138</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, Apr 3 2012 21:25:12 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[J.D. Ray]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Selling cantaloupes for income</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I have been raising cantaloupes to sell now for three years..Have not had much luck.In 2011 it was so hot and dry the cantaloupe died off.This year I have plenty of water and lot more know how on growing cantaloupes. Now I need to advise on getting people to buy them.and how much to sell them for I'm in Texas.I was thinking of finding a whole sell buyer.but do not know where to look]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13870/124090</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13870/124090</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, Apr 3 2012 17:42:44 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Jim Norris]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Fukuoka believed organic food should be cheaper than commercial food.  Is this possible?</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I was really struck in reading ONE STRAW REVOLUTION that Fukuoka was disgusted when he learned shops in the city were selling his organic produce for higher prices than commercially-grown produce.  His philosophy of organically grown food was that it should cost LESS than what big agri and supermarkets charge, not more.  Of course today we have the opposite scenario in North America, and I'm guessing other places as well.  Why is this?<br /> <br /> Theoretically, it seems to me that if one were really to practice his methods, one could justify lower prices by the fact that far less inputs of time and equipment (and no chemical inputs at all) are needed.  If you are an organic farmer and you find you must sell your produce at higher prices just to cover your costs, then I am curious to know what it is about your practice that is making your costs higher.  I'm not trying to start an argument here or put anyone on the defensive--I really just want to ask the question.  Thanks.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13753/123190</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13753/123190</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Mar 28 2012 18:58:05 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Willy Kerlang]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>millionaire amish farmer</title>
				<description><![CDATA[<img src="http://www.pabook.libraries.psu.edu/palitmap/amish-farm-cart.jpg" border="0" /><br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://nichegeek.com/amish_millionaire" target="_blank" >http://nichegeek.com/amish_millionaire</a><br /> <br /> It sounds like they are focusing on "nutrient dense foods" - beyond organic.<br /> <br /> I wonder how many acres they have.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13618/122128</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13618/122128</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Mar 21 2012 14:53:56 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[paul wheaton]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Here's a great home farm based business- each region needs one</title>
				<description><![CDATA[<a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.studiogblog.com/plants-natives/plants/instant-hedging/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.studiogblog.com/plants-natives/plants/instant-hedging/</a><br /> <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13549/121631</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13549/121631</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Mar 18 2012 17:46:17 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Morgan Morrigan]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Hours to pay for rent at minimum wage.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Very depressing.<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/417092_10150674664707980_31151752979_9288951_2089558495_n.jpg" target="_blank" >http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/417092_10150674664707980_31151752979_9288951_2089558495_n.jpg</a>]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13545/121604</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13545/121604</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Mar 18 2012 15:26:13 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Morgan Morrigan]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Producing Real food and competing w/ Safeway - podcast 124.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Producing ‘Real’ Food and competing with Safeway<br /> Just finished listening to Podcast 124 where Paul talks about people who are producing real food and want to sell it at prices that are competitive with Safeway.  It seems that there are a lot of people who want to do this and IN MY OPINION  - they really need to change the way they are thinking and how they are thinking about their product.<br /> Pretend it’s not food.<br /> <br /> I want to produce a widget that is WAY better than the widgets produced in China.  And I want to sell it at the same price (or less) than the ones produced in China.<br /> <br /> 1. The widget in China is produced using several thousand employees who work for peanuts per hour.<br /> 2.  Because they are selling billions of widgets they can purchase supplies for production of widgets in MASSIVE quantities at a very cheap price.<br /> 3.  These raw materials are also usually of inferior quality and use human labor that works for peanuts per hour.<br /> 4.  The cheap widgets (in theory) have a guaranteed market and are shipped to cheap stores all over the world to customers who are only concerned about price – not quality.<br /> 5.  That market sometimes fails so the widgets are sold at a loss to even cheaper discount stores.<br /> <br /> If you replace the word food (or beef or watermelon) everywhere you see the word widget and this is a pretty accurate example of how our food system works.  And yes, even entire boatloads of watermelon come to us from as far as China.<br /> <br /> To try to compete with Safeway is not a sustainable goal.  The idea of providing good food to people of all incomes is a very just and noble idea but in order for these people to have access to quality food they are going to need to adjust their expectations.  In the ‘old days’ meat was not the staple food of the common person as it was too expensive.  Only after finding ways to mass produce meat did it start showing up on every table.<br /> When I was very poor and raising children we used meat for flavoring.  There just was not enough money for everyone to sit down to a big slab of meat.  As a matter of fact I really cannot remember one single time that the kids and I ate a steak for dinner.  This is because I was poor and too proud to ask for government money – not because I was smart – so they accidentally had a much better diet.<br /> <br /> So to get back to the original point:  Trying to produce real food and be competitive with Safeway does no one any favors.<br /> <br /> 1.  I would end up being my own slave labor or trying to find people to hire (exploit) for pennies.<br /> 2.  There are people out there who are willing to forgo premium smartphone services or the latest tennis shoe in favor or healthy fuel for their bodies.<br /> 3.  Local Markets and Quality grocers like the Rosewood Deli and Earth Fare in my area have stayed PACKED with customers in this depressed economy while mainstream grocers selling inferior cheap food have been going out of business left and right. <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13523/121322</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13523/121322</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sat, Mar 17 2012 08:07:01 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Jeanine Gurley]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Can a Solar Dehydrator generate revenue on an Urban Homestead?</title>
				<description><![CDATA[This first part is optional, skip if tl;dr<br /> <blockquote class="uncited">
			<div>I am one of those many people who go to work to get a paycheck but dream of moving away to the country and getting a place of my own.<br /> And like many, I am still in the phase in which you save as much as you can try to pay off your debts. To satiate my impatience and prepare myself for homestead life, I am trying create an Urban Homestead while living in an apartment with my wife and children. Some principles of homesteading and permaculture I have fit easily into our urban living. Saving electricity, preserving food, composting/gardening... etc.<br />  I felt it would ease my wife's worries if some of the homesteading principles could begin to generate revenue. As such, I have been considering the following:  </div>
		</blockquote><br /> <br /> I've been considering constructing a Solar Food Dehydrator<br /> ( Much like the ones in Paul's videos <a class="snap_shots" href="http://youtu.be/oVTcnCuX2Qc" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://youtu.be/oVTcnCuX2Qc</a> )<br /> and creating products as means of generating income.<br /> <br /> If I had the data I would want to find out how much food could be dehydrated and how long would it take. The only way to get this would be to invest the money and build it; then run delicious test batches and collect the data.<br /> <br /> <br /> Possible Items:<br /> Dried fruit and trail mixes<br /> Fruit Leathers, I've seen soccer moms pay $20+ a box at the chain store for 'Organic Fruit Leathers' for their offspring. approx $3/oz<br /> Drying garden herbs for herbal teas<br /> Potpourri (HINT: an essential oils still or press would also work on a Urban Homestead)<br /> <img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sqNKueqdGDc/T1-VHn3EnuI/AAAAAAAAAhM/FF1JOoUvSYc/s650/dehydrated.jpg" border="0" /><br /> <br /> Please impart your dehydrator wisdom upon me.<br /> <br /> Resources:<br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.amazon.com/Fruit-Leather-Spiced-Apple-organic/dp/B002YBJZEA/" target="_new" >Amazon: Fruit Leathers</a><br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.youtube.com/user/paulwheaton12" target="_new" >Paul's Youtube</a>]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13441/120791</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13441/120791</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, Mar 13 2012 12:44:29 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Nicholas Green]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Short-Term Plans for Six Acres</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ :???: Help!<br /> I have a rented six acre field that's been managed organically for the past 4 years and if I can't make $300-400 per acre this year my farming partners may "pull the plug" on it and put it back to GMO's, pesticides, and chem. fertilizers.  :cry: <br /> <br /> It's been mostly alfalfa and grasses except for the two acres I plowed up to plant corn on last year, which yielded miserably but produced enough for a couple years worth of chicken feed.  The hay ground hasn't paid off very well since we don't own haying equipment and the difficulty in finding a buyer.  After the first year of hay a neighbor with cattle has been paying us to bale it and take it.  I've thought about putting hogs or cattle on it (little or no experience with this) but would need to get the ok from the landlord and make necessary provisions.  <br /> <br /> Since I'm running out of time and ideas for this I thought I'd put it out here.  Any thoughts would be much appreciated.<br /> <br /> A little bit about the land and us;  We have very little extra time from about mid-april till mid-june,  august is a good month for extra projects.  The market for organic and local-sustainable food around here (or anywhere less than a 2 hour drive from here) sucks,  at the local co-op, which amazingly exists here, people will not buy organic oatmeal even if the regular oatmeal has run out and it's been marked down to the same price and if that's the only reason they went to the store!   I know because my wife worked there.<br /> <br /> The land is USDA zone 4,  fairly heavy clay loam, black, 4-6% organic matter, mostly well-drained, flat to gently sloped, surrounded by woods, meadow, and landlords large fancy house to the E, S, and W.  County gravel road to the N.  Since this is rented, for now woody crops are out unless they yield after one year.  I know this is definitely NOT permaculture right now, but it could be transitioned (landlord dependent), or it could be used to support or jump-start a permaculture project on my own land just two miles away if I can convince myself it's worth it to pay $300-400 per acre for whatever's produced.<br /> <br /> Even if your ideas don't work in my situation I'd like to hear them, maybe they'll fit someone else's at least.<br /> <br /> Oh!  forgot to mention... I have all the normal "industrial" farm equipment at my disposal including a no-till grain drill, back-hoe, skid-steer, and tile plow but I'd prefer not to use any machines if feasible.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13419/120598</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13419/120598</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Mar 11 2012 21:38:16 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[S Haze]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Christmas tree farm income</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Hi all!<br /> <br /> So I got some great news last weekend that I want to share, and bounce some ideas around. I decided that this summer I am going to put some of this permaculture knowledge I have been cramming into my brain to good use. I put the word out to some friends that I was looking for some property ~3 acres to lease to do chicken/quail tractors at. A friend of mine has been running a landscaping crew for a local Christmas tree farm for a few years now, he said he would ask them. <br /> <br /> 2 weeks later I met with the owners son, my friends boss, he is probably late 20's early 30's. He had googled Joel Salatin and chicken tractors and was very interested. We BSed for a bit and he showed me around, they have chickens, pigs, cows, and horses. The property is 110acres with 14 acres fenced pasture, some hills, natural ponds, Christmas trees, and hardwoods. <br /> <br /> So after the tour I asked, "Ok so what are you thinking about for a lease?" <br /> <br /> He said, "Well, we tried raising broilers before and it ended up not being that profitable for us, so just go ahead and do it." <br /> <br /> I said, "Wow, well what about some profit sharing or something?" <br /> <br /> He said, "Yeah we could do that, but honestly I would want you to make sure you get your money and income out of it first. In all honesty my dad would be ecstatic to get maybe $100-$200 out of the deal."<br /> <br /> I said, "OK, well I don't really feel comfortable using your land and not helping you out in some way, what about labor?"<br /> <br /> He said, " Really? that would be awesome, actually that would be the best thing. I am busy all summer running the landscaping crews and my dad is getting up there in age and just doesn't have the motivation that he used to."<br /> <br /> So I ended up getting access to the whole 14 acres of pasture and I get to help with some farm choirs.<br /> <br /> My friend having known this guy for a few years has told me that he really wants to convert the farm to an organic farm. However he is busy running the landscaping / snow removal business and his dad is content with doing Christmas trees. I am hoping that I can show them a profitable way to raise poultry and perhaps start letting permaculture loose on the land. With the structures they already have( parking lot, sale building) a u-pick Holzer style maze would be a perfect fit into the landscape and not interfere with their current enterprises. I am going to start slow and hopefully they will continue to be receptive. The son is very receptive, he was very interested in permaculture asking questions and writing stuff down to google later. <br /> <br /> Any way I found this whole encounter rather encouraging and thought I would share it with the group. I'll make sure I take lots of pics and maybe start a thread of the progression.<br /> <br /> *Oh and raccoons seem to be a major problem on the farm. They are fine with hunting trapping them, though they don't want to do it themselves. Any suggestions to keep the raccoons out of things?<br /> <br /> Questions, comments, concerns, suggestions all welcome.<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13354/120096</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13354/120096</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Mar 8 2012 09:47:03 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Brad Davies]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Food sovereignty laws - I'd like to jump on the bandwagon</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Sedgwick Maine recently passed a food sovereignty law - or ordinance.  In my opinion this is THE answer to many of our problems; employment, economy, food safety and so on.  As for food safety the first thing I hear when discussing this issue is:  “There are no inspectors!  There are no regulations!  It won’t be safe!”<br /> There are inspectors now, there are regulations now, and enough guidelines and requirements to be met to prohibit all but the wealthiest of us from ever selling so much as a batch of cookies – and is it safe?  No.<br /> <br /> Epidemics of food borne illness have come from large scale suppliers of factory produced food.  <br /> <br /> I would like to see more communities adopt this same type of ordinance.  Frankly I am surprised that Maine has gotten away with it.  I would have thought some corporation would have squashed them by now – but if they can do it then can’t more of us give it a shot?<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://growninthecity.com/2011/03/maine-town-passes-local-food-and-community-self-governance-ordinance-becomes-first-in-us-to-declare-food-sovereignty/" target="_blank" >http://growninthecity.com/2011/03/maine-town-passes-local-food-and-community-self-governance-ordinance-becomes-first-in-us-to-declare-food-sovereignty/</a><br /> <br /> <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13069/118278</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/13069/118278</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Feb 26 2012 20:44:29 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Jeanine Gurley]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>how best to grow hay for market?</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ok, so i have little experience with growing hay, even conventionally, but i am trying to educate my grandfather on how best to grow things in accordance with nature and natures laws<br /> thus far things are going pretty good but one thing i just cant come up with an answer for, simply because i do not know, is how he can go about growing hay for market<br /> i started by thinking, well about the same as these guys do their pastures:<br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQhRIKo5rA&feature=related" target="_blank" >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQhRIKo5rA&feature=related</a><br /> by planting a large variety of grasses that will help eachother grow and regulate eachother well<br /> <br /> what confuses me is that when growing hay for market, the grass is removed and baled, leaving none for mulch/fertilizer the next year, so how is this substainable?<br /> if it is not, as i suspect, how does one go about making it substainable?<br /> <br /> <br /> he has about 5 acres total and is thinking of using about 4 for hay, with the remaining acre being used for home and backtoeden inspired garden]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12801/116019</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12801/116019</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Feb 15 2012 19:25:48 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Devon Olsen]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Noob Intro and Accounting Question</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Hello All!<br /> <br /> Just starting my wanderings in here but hope to bump into many of you more often.  In the meantime, wondering if anyone could recommend some farm accounting software that <i>doesn't</i> cost an arm and a leg...we are consolidating several arms of the farm under one business name and trying to find a software package to help track everything.  We sell stock and retail rainbow trout, baked goods, and this year, produce, eggs and soon goat milk products...<br /> <br /> Any suggestions for software would be appreciated.  Trying to get away from QB Online and don't want to go all the way to Excel make my own methods..<br /> <br /> Thanks!<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12787/115858</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12787/115858</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, Feb 14 2012 20:05:33 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Christine Raymond]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Joel Salatin: Preaching to the Choir</title>
				<description><![CDATA[<img src="http://i.imgur.com/oGYUQ.jpg" border="0" /><br /> <b>Joel Salatin: Preaching to the Choir</b> <br /> Video - 70 Minutes<br /> <br /> Direct Video Link: <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/6471/Joel-Salatin--Preaching-to-the-Choir" target="_blank" >http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/6471/Joel-Salatin--Preaching-to-the-Choir</a><br /> Pointing Link: <a class="snap_shots" href="http://hines.blogspot.com/2012/02/joel-salatin-preaching-to-choir.html" target="_blank" >http://hines.blogspot.com/2012/02/joel-salatin-preaching-to-choir.html</a><br /> <br /> Joel Salatin: Preaching to the Choir : Director: Russian River TV | Producer: Russian River TV Genre: Documentary | Produced In: 2010 | Story Teller's Country: United States<br /> Tags: United States, Americas, Environment, Farming<br /> <br /> Synopsis: In "The Omnivore's Dilemma", Michael Pollan introduced us to Joel Salatin, a farmer who's been practicing a complex form of rotational grazing in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley. In the past few years Joel has become a folk hero in certain circles of farmers seeking to challenge the conventional agribusiness model. We read as much as we could about Joel's Polyface Farm, and got to wondering how his methods would translate to Sonoma County's different climate. We have to admit, we sort of stalked Joel's schedule for a while, spying a little item that read “private farm consultation, Sonoma, March 17”. After some detective work, we discovered that Joel would be coming to Tara Firma Farms in Petaluma, and got invited to a reception and talk at the Institute of Noetic Sciences in Marin. Please join us for this enlightening lecture.<br /> <br /> <b>Video - Informative - Thought Provoking - Entertaining - ...<br /> <br /> Comments - Discussion ?</b><br /> <br /> Regards,<br /> Monte Hines]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12703/115069</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12703/115069</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sat, Feb 11 2012 01:24:31 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Monte Hines]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Leasing your managed grassland</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I was just watching Greg Judy on YouTube, at a conference in VA in 2011 (<a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6HGKSvjk5Q" target="_blank" >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6HGKSvjk5Q</a>). I was rather intrigued by the idea of managing grassland and leasing it to local cattle farmers. They would pay $21 a head, per month, for cattle to graze on his land. He says this is what he did to get out of bankruptcy. <br /> <br /> I wonder how much he was really involved with the cattle. If you had little time invested towards them, this seems like a great thing with little risk.<br /> I figure, over the long run, it would be more profitable to get your own cattle on your own land. But, if you have the open land and are just getting started, this seems like a possible route not only to introduce you to intensive cattle grazing but get some income with little investment and risk. But, I could be wrong.<br />  <br /> Has anyone here tried this or similar land leasing?]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12527/113404</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12527/113404</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Feb 1 2012 14:21:43 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Travis Toner]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>my startup income</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I am 17 days away from quitting my under minimum wage job to take the risk of earning my own income. I'll have a cash bought used pickup truck, insurance paid off in full for 6 months and 10 acres of vacant land to camp on with a monthly mortgage under $200. I want to get into dumpster diving full-time and go on a collection spree. Going freegan again, gathering produce to compost, fuel and building supplies and selling scrap metal.Stressful transition, yes, but I have had many good days hobby diving. My best is finding a 4oz 18k gold chain and a working commercial pizza oven I sold on CL for $300 a few months ago. I love the police encounters too, always friendly and inquisitive, in return I scare off the real criminals and report suspicious items like purses.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12138/110255</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12138/110255</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Jan 12 2012 17:03:13 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Carlos Romero]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Melding Home and Farm</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Found here: <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/list/505#3396" target="_blank" >http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/list/505#3396</a><br /> <br /> <blockquote>
			<div>
				<cite>Toby Hemenway wrote:</cite><br /> What Joel Salatin is doing at Polyface Farm is utterly permacultural. You use a different set of techniques at farm scale than you would at home scale, of course.<br /> </div>
		</blockquote><br /> <br /> As someone who is trying to bring income out of a small, home-based project, i would be interested to know about these sets of techniques, their differences, and perhaps finding the point at which they meet. I have a feeling this could go into a discussion of homesteading, but while I love the idea of homesteading, it's not really happening for me. I love the work I do in the (smallish) field and in the (friend's) yard, and I'm trying to create a community around that and have some monetary compensation for my efforts as well.<br /> <br /> Thanks,<br /> William]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12095/109809</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12095/109809</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Jan 11 2012 09:18:53 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[William James]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Mobile Slaughter Unit For Sale - Cheap</title>
				<description><![CDATA[<br /> <br /> Vermont is selling their nearly brand new mobile poultry processing unit. It cost $93,000 to build and is on auction going for pennies on the dollar. See:<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://flashweb.com/" target="_blank" >http://flashweb.com/</a><br /> <br /> for a post with links to the auction, various news articles and such with photos of the interior.<br /> <br /> Here's your opportunity to own your own USDA/State inspect-able poultry processing unit.<br /> <br /> Cheers,<br /> <br /> Walter Jeffries<br /> Sugar Mountain Farm, LLC<br /> Orange, Vermont<br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog" target="_blank" >http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog</a><br /> <br /> Future On-farm Butcher Shop: <a class="snap_shots" href="http://sugarmtnfarm.com/butchershop" target="_blank" >http://sugarmtnfarm.com/butchershop</a><br /> Order Form: <a class="snap_shots" href="http://sugarmtnfarm.com/SMFOrderForm.pdf" target="_blank" >http://sugarmtnfarm.com/SMFOrderForm.pdf</a><br /> Literature: <a class="snap_shots" href="http://SugarMtnFarm.com/lit" target="_blank" >http://SugarMtnFarm.com/lit</a><br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12077/109628</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12077/109628</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, Jan 10 2012 11:05:13 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Walter Jeffries]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Toby? - membership-full diet Essex Farm</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I wonder if the business plan at Essex Farm - individuals buy a membership, and pick up a weekly box of food for a complete diet - vegs, meat, dairy, eggs, frut, maple syrup, etc - all organic, horse-powered, etc..  Seems to be a winner, that could work permaculturally. Here's a summary of their operation...<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.newenglandvfc.org/pdf_proceedings/2009/EssexGHPM.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.newenglandvfc.org/pdf_proceedings/2009/EssexGHPM.pdf</a><br /> <br /> Also, Mrs. Kimball has written a book - 'The Dirty Life" which I'm enjoying very much.<br /> <br /> Toby H..... what do you think re: economic feasibilty and permaculture?<br /> <br /> (Also, I can see various pol/econ philosophies working out here.. profit <i>maximizers</i> could increase their membership price at every opportunity, while those more generously inclined, could hold their prices at whatever provides them an adequate and comfortable living.... and possibly undercut the 'greedier' ?  :)<br /> <br /> (If this has been fully discussed elsewhere, please forgive and send me there ;)]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12037/109328</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12037/109328</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, Jan 9 2012 10:46:06 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[nancy sutton]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Get breif knowledge for many health care products</title>
				<description><![CDATA[This seems like a great initiative. Speaking personally, I use the internet to get more information about medication and I am often unsure how reliable the information is. A single portal to reliable sites would be a great help in this area and if you want's to get breif knowledge on the same you can visit <a class="snap_shots" href="http://affordablemedz.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://affordablemedz.com/</a>]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12022/109273</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/12022/109273</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, Jan 9 2012 04:48:52 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Daniel red]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Dawn Redwood</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Crazy question or idea how ever you want to categorize it.<br /> Dawn Redwood was used by the local farmers in the valley where it grew in china in the 40s as a fodder crop for their animals. <br />  So saying that along with how fast it grows could it not be a reasonable option to heavily plant several acres with the dawn redwood with say 8 feet spacing’s?<br />  Then thin those out every few years in the same methods used is the teak forest.  With the speed of growth it would be reasonable to have eight inch saw logs within a decade.  If the rule of thumb for one foot of spacing every inch of trunk then the original eight foot of spacing would allow the harvest of an eight inch saw log before overcrowding becomes a problem. The dawn redwood also grows well from the cut stumps according to what I have read. The means the follow on cuttings could be mulched or turned into a fuel source.<br />  The big question is what plants would be compatible with the dawn redwood. It is a conifer species so would it kill off other useful plants. Its tolerance of high acid soil may make it a good candidate for reclaiming distressed land. <br /> I guess the biggest problem is the tree has mainly been planted as a specimen tree and not really researched as a timber species due to the extreme low numbers in the 1940s when it was discovered in the remote valley in China.<br /> I need to also find out if there would be a market for the wood. I could easily see a small home workshop business from the trees when my son needs college money.<br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11901/108287</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11901/108287</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Jan 1 2012 13:27:26 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[John Sizemore]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title> Berry questions ,To swale or not to swale.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I planning on doing a berry patch in a old horse pasture in the hope of building a little extra income some day. I have a small 3 year old patch of thornless black satin blackberries that's pretty productive with little to no care. My area receives 48 inches of rain per year. I get a lot of forest effect rain. My soil is pretty crappy, little topsoil and lots of clay. Should I swale, or do straight rows? I was thinking I get enough rain to not swale, but digging swales will help make my project bigger and more time consuming to help keep my mind off of my day job drudgery. Instead of doing monocrop rows, I was thinking of doing inter crops of raspberry, blackberries, and mulberry trees trained into small bushes. Any advice welcome.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11823/107730</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11823/107730</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, Dec 26 2011 23:59:00 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Joseph Fields]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>TEDxAlbany-2011-Sarah Gordon-Marketing for the Future of Small Family Farms</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I thought you all would enjoy this talk.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://youtu.be/Cg53rBdDGWM" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/Cg53rBdDGWM/hqdefault.jpg" /></a><br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://youtu.be/Cg53rBdDGWM" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://youtu.be/Cg53rBdDGWM</a>]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11812/107603</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11812/107603</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Dec 25 2011 19:04:26 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Mark Rose]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>paul wheaton</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Paul (meaning Mr Wheaton) - I meant to ask you an indiscreet question: how do you make a living?<br /> Do you have a job other than your podcasting and maintaining permies and richsoil?<br /> <br /> Cuz I’ve heard you many times saying how you’ve given away a lot for free (indeed, I do not pay for your podcasts, nor for membership here @ permies; although I never took advantage of the software you’ve given away) – but people usually need some money to get by in this world… So I was curious as to what you do in that respect, since (I assume) you retired from software business.<br /> <br /> Whether you choose to respond or not, thanks a bunch for what you do!!<br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11204/102211</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11204/102211</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Nov 10 2011 11:54:33 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Dmitry Markov]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Washington orchards desperate for apple pickers</title>
				<description><![CDATA[This article illustrates some of the unsustainability with our current apple production system.<br /> <br /> However I don&#039;t think (large-scale) permaculture would solve the harvest labor issue, would it?<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/nov/09/washington-orchards-desperate-apple-pickers/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/nov/09/washington-orchards-desperate-apple-pickers/</a><br /> <br /> <blockquote class="uncited">
			<div><span style="font-size: 12ptpx; line-height: normal;">Washington orchards desperate for apple pickers</span><br /> <br /> By SHANNON DININNY, Associated Press<br /> As of Wednesday, November 9, 2011<br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 10ptpx; line-height: normal;">YAKIMA, Wash. (AP) — Apple growers say they could have had one of their best years ever if a shortage of workers hadn&#039;t forced them to leave some fruit on trees.<br /> <br /> Growers in Washington state, which produces about half of the nation&#039;s apples, say the labor shortage was made worse by a late start to their harvest. The growing season got off to a slow start because of a cold, wet spring, and some migrant workers didn&#039;t stick around to wait for it.<br /> <br /> But farmers say an immigration crackdown by the federal government and states such as Arizona and Alabama scared off many more workers. They have tried to replace them with domestic workers with little success and inmates at a much greater cost. Many growers have resorted to posting &quot;pickers wanted&quot; signs outside their orchards and asking neighbors to send prospective workers their way.<br /> <br /> Jeff Pheasant and his sister Darla Grubb are the fourth generation in their family to grow apples near Soap Lake, about 120 miles east of Seattle. They said their harvest was a week behind because the fruit wasn&#039;t ripe, then another week behind because they had no workers to pick it.<br /> <br /> Pheasant Orchards usually has 65 workers at the peak of harvest. Only 50 pickers arrived this year, and many were inexperienced, Pheasant said.<br /> <br /> &quot;You have to have people,&quot; Grubb said. &quot;They&#039;re the reason we have fruits and vegetables. We couldn&#039;t do this without our workers.&quot;<br /> <br /> About 15 billion apples are picked in Washington each year, all by hand. Orchards line the hillsides and valleys east of the Cascade Range from the Canadian border in the north to the Columbia River in the south.<br /> <br /> Growers have struggled for years with labor shortages, but they say this harvest season is one of the toughest yet. Typically, about 70 percent of the state&#039;s farmworkers are in the country illegally. But many Mexican and other migrant workers stayed away this year after some states passed tougher immigration laws and the federal government cracked down.<br /> <br /> &quot;We&#039;ve been dealing with this for a number of years now, and until something changes at the federal level, growers are going to struggle having enough workers,&quot; said Mike Gempler, a farm labor contractor for Washington growers.<br /> <br /> Gov. Chris Gregoire assembled a delegation of 15 farmers last month for a trip to Washington, D.C., where they urged Congress to enact comprehensive immigration reform. At the time, Gregoire estimated the state still needed 4,000 workers to complete the harvest, which could have been the third-largest in state history.<br /> <br /> &quot;Our problem now is: How do we get it off the trees?&quot; Gregoire said. &quot;We don&#039;t have a work force, and that is at the doorstop of the federal government.&quot;<br /> <br /> Farmers in other states also are struggling with a labor shortage. A Georgia pilot program matching probationers with farmers needing harvesters had mixed results. Some Alabama farmers tried hiring American citizens after the state&#039;s new immigration law chased away migrant workers, but they said the new employees were often ready to call it a day by mid-afternoon. Many quit after a day or two.<br /> <br /> In Washington, a state office that matches workers with available jobs posted hundreds of openings at orchards with few takers, and many farmers complained that those who did apply were too inexperienced.<br /> <br /> Some critics say growers would have enough workers if they paid more. Washington has the highest minimum wage in the country at $8.67 per hour. Apple pickers are often paid based on how much they pick, but they&#039;re guaranteed at least minimum wage.<br /> <br /> Erik Nicholson, Pacific Northwest director for the United Farmworkers of America labor union, said that&#039;s not enough to attract a steady labor supply.<br /> <br /> A growing number of farmers have turned to a federal guest-worker program to bring in foreign workers, despite longstanding complaints that it&#039;s too cumbersome and expensive to be of any real help. Growers in the program generally must pay a higher wage, plus provide housing and transportation in and out of the country.<br /> <br /> The Labor Department approved about 4,200 guest-workers for Washington this year — up from nearly 2,100 three years ago — but that&#039;s far fewer than the thousands needed to work each year.<br /> <br /> McDougall &amp; Sons orchard, which has been family-owned for five generations, brought in 240 foreign workers under the program. A one-week extension to their contract kept them here until the end of October, but their exodus left the orchard short pickers when the harvest still wasn&#039;t done.<br /> <br /> That&#039;s when Scott McDougall became the only grower to accept the governor&#039;s offer of inmate labor.<br /> <br /> More than 100 inmates arrived, with security officers in tow, to pick Jazz apples, which are in limited production and have a higher value. Each inmate cost $22 per hour, which McDougall pays the state to cover transportation, food, housing and security.<br /> <br /> &quot;I&#039;d say they&#039;re probably picking about half what an experienced picker would pick,&quot; he said. &quot;The value of the fruit obviously — vs. having it frozen on the tree — warrants the higher rate.&quot;</span><br /> </div>
		</blockquote><br /> <br /> There are some decent comment after the article.  I liked this one:<br /> <br /> <blockquote class="uncited">
			<div>I&#039;m having a hard time understanding the goal of this article. What is presented is that the apple industry has built itself on the backs of illegal labor (and so, by extension the American Taxpayer) and now that there has been some measure of law enforcement, that labor is no longer available. Does the author intend that I feel bad about that? To be a legal and legitimate business costs money. Further, would the author have me to conceive that only illegals from accross the border can adequately pick fruit because $22 an hour inmate labor (certainly not the cream of society&#039;s crop) does less than stellar work? Or that Georgia and Alabama workers are &quot;less than&quot; because they are not interested in dying an early death in the orchard for minimum wage? Apples will simply have to cost more. When we can afford them, we&#039;ll buy them. When we can&#039;t we won&#039;t. That&#039;s the way the system should work.</div>
		</blockquote><br /> <br /> There are some hot-button issues involved here (illegal workers, unsustainable pay, lazy Americans, etc.) but I would like this thread to focus on this question:<br /> <br /> <blockquote class="uncited">
			<div><span style="font-size: 10ptpx; line-height: normal;">How does (or how can) permaculture solve the harvesting issues described in this article?</span></div>
		</blockquote><br /> <br /> If I understand permaculture correctly, harvesting costs are considerably higher in a permaculture than they are in a mono/industrial agriculture.  I think that is a major mental hurdle for many people, so it does need to be addressed. ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11172/102074</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11172/102074</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Nov 9 2011 13:23:59 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Dave Miller]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Trevor Van Hemert from Pedal to Petal making money with permaculture</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Here is a inspiring interview from a guy who started a company I just heard of today. This is something anyone could do. There are many youth in our world looking for work. Rather than point them to fast food, this is just great. I hope you will enjoy.<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/trevor-van-hemert-from-pedal-to-petal" target="_blank" >http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/trevor-van-hemert-from-pedal-to-petal</a><br /> <br /> The interview starts about 5 minutes in.<br /> please do, Share your thoughts. I for one love to ride my bike anyway and getting outside to get cardio. my only concern would be our months where bikes dont works so well with our deep snow. <br /> <br /> maybe sleds?]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11162/101965</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11162/101965</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, Nov 8 2011 21:05:46 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Casey Halone]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Asparagus farm?</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Asparagus is the only conventional vegetable which has survived the drought for me with no care.&nbsp; It grows well here in our somewhat alkaline clay loam yet I don&#039;t know if there are any local asparagus farms.&nbsp; If I were to try growing asparagus for sale, how do I calculate how much to plant?&nbsp; I want an annual income of about $1500 from it.&nbsp; I would be the only person working this farm.&nbsp; Sales would be to neighbors and from a farm stand or possibly to a restaurant in town.<br /> <br /> How much can I expect to earn per plant or per square foot?]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11138/101698</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11138/101698</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, Nov 7 2011 08:02:15 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Tyler Ludens]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>What to do with garlic scapes</title>
				<description><![CDATA[As I was planting garlic today, I started thinking about scapes and how I knew of one farm who grew 10 000 head of garlic and simply tossed all the scapes aside from those kept for personal use. I thought I&#039;d relay the few ideas that we&#039;ve tried for processing scapes for market.<br /> <br /> Selling them as is, in twist tied bunches: Kinda obscure, and hard for us to sell, even in Toronto markets. Might do better in your area though.<br /> <br /> Pesto. There are many recipes out there, and pesto is pretty popular in general.<br /> <br /> Pickles. My favourite type of pickle by far.<br /> <br /> Powder. Dehydrated, then ground up and bottled. Easiest, and a good seller for us.<br /> <br /> <br /> It may seem obvious to some but samples might make the difference for the pesto and pickles. We put our pesto samples on corn chips and it really helps sales.<br /> <br /> Any other ideas that have worked/not worked for you?]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11125/101607</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11125/101607</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Nov 6 2011 18:32:43 MST]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Travis Philp]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Preventing butcher shop thievery.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[  I seldom speak to anyone who has taken sheep or cattle to the abattoir who doesn&#039;t complain of receiving less than all of the meat. Many have also claimed to get back five-year-old mutton when they brought in a young lamb. I&#039;ve met one employee who said they participated in this sort of thing but he says it was years ago and was unwilling to reveal further information since it was a relative.<br /> <br />      Is this practice common within the butchering business or is it unique to small markets where unsophisticated clients bring their animals to the only available guy?<br /> <br />     Is there some way to mark the meat in a manner that would deter this?<br /> <br />     Does anyone have other ideas about what is being done or might be done to avoid being ripped off. Obviously the whole get a good butcher thing would work, but it may be necessary to work with a less than honest butcher. How would you keep them honest?<br /> <br />     I was thinking that the animal could be simply quartered but that defeats some of the purpose of taking them in.<br /> <br />             Thank you: Dale Hodgins, someone with a very suspicious nature.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11112/101439</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11112/101439</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sat, Nov 5 2011 16:46:04 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Dale Hodgins]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>$$$ High Food Prices are a good thing $$$</title>
				<description><![CDATA[$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$     I often encounter people who lament the high cost of food. Many of them believe that spending 10% of their income is outrageous. I checked some statistics and it turns out that the average person in Canada spends around 6% of total income on food and some of that is restaurant fare. So other than for those in very low income situations, food is not expensive. It&#039;s cheap.<br /> <br />    For most of human kind&#039;s existence we put most of our labor into the acquisition of food. Now that our money goes into cell phones,credit debt, haircuts, cars, rent and mortgages, many people choose to spend freely on other things while skimping on food. It&#039;s a priority thing.<br /> <br />    Those people will not be my target market. I plan to produce plenty of food, but nothing cheap. I can&#039;t begin to fill the whole market in my area so it makes no sense for me to grow low profit items. I&#039;ll produce enough cabbage and potatoes etc. for personal use but I&#039;m not too worried if I don&#039;t have enough of that stuff for everyone. Below are a list of fairly expensive items which I hope to produce in quantity.<br /> <br />    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$     &nbsp; &nbsp;  I commonly hear people complain that one huge disadvantage to living on this island is that we get screwed by the grocery store. As I remember the song it went, &quot;you&#039;ve got to accentuate the positive&quot;...<br />   <br />      A trip to the fish market the other day was quite enlightening. They sell Tilapia for $30 per kilogram which is about $14 per pound. This stuff is not organic and it is shipped from thousands of miles away. It&#039;s conceivable that I can charge more than this. :-)  <br /> <br />    Organically raised chicken can sell for six dollars per lb. It&#039;s about the same for turkey and duck is even more expensive.<br /> <br />    Jerusalem artichokes sell for seven dollars per pound at my local supermarket. Again, they&#039;re not organic.   Then there are organic things like sweet potatoes, melons, berries... that bring a nice hefty price.  Our entire industrialized farming complex is devoted to producing run of the mill cheap product. So it only makes sense that I differentiate myself in the market not only by producing organically but also by producing expensive crops which are not readily available elsewhere. In discussing this with my niece she thought it only appropriate that I produce things which everyone can afford. But it&#039;s not my job to feed the world. I&#039;m only willing to feed those who are willing to compensate me handsomely.<br /> <br />    High food prices are only a problem if you haven&#039;t figured out how to feed yourself. I will gladly demonstrate how it&#039;s done to anyone who visits. But then I&#039;ll empty their wallets into mine. :-)$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$<br /> <br />        Thank you: Dale Hodgins, &quot;the greedy curmudgeon.&quot;--------- Yes, this is very permaculturey because I plan to give away all of the money, :-o honestly. On my 200th birthday.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11111/101435</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11111/101435</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sat, Nov 5 2011 15:43:32 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Dale Hodgins]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Quota system has stranglehold on Canadian agriculture</title>
				<description><![CDATA[&nbsp;   Although this article is mostly concerned with the Canadian quota system, its roots lie in the United States.<br /> <br /> &nbsp; &nbsp;  We have many laws in Canada which prevent small farmers from freely producing food. There are marketing boards which control the production of eggs, milk, frying chickens, ducks and duck eggs, potatoes, carrots, beets, lettuce, celery, tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers. Which products are controlled varies from province to province.<br /> <br />     In this article I&#039;ll concern myself mostly with chickens and eggs since I would need to write many volumes to demonstrate just how complicated it is for someone to be allowed to produce food in Canada.<br /> <br />    Anyone wishing to grow these products must obtain the proper licensing from government and in some cases they must purchase the right to produce these products. When you&#039;re given this license you then purchase quota. The amount of quota you purchase determines the quantity which you are allowed to produce.<br /> <br />     In checking government websites I found plenty of information which explains what a great idea this is. <br /> <br />     The reason for controlling farm output cited most often is that supply is guaranteed. I suppose this one is listed first because they want to assure the public that no one is going to starve.<br /> <br />     The next most commonly cited reason why these laws exist is so that farmers are guaranteed to cover their expenses and make a livable wage.<br /> <br />     It&#039;s called supply management. A group of government employees  calculate all of the various input costs in producing given commodities then they decide how much should be earned per pound of product produced. They set the price. Anytime there is a change in input costs the price is adjusted so that the farmers income remains stable. Sounds fair doesn&#039;t it ? They have various hearings and all stakeholders are allowed input. Stakeholders are those who are somehow involved in production of these food items. Regular citizens are not invited. Apparently the manner in which food is produced is none of our business.<br /> <br />     The system was set up starting about 50 years ago in response to major consolidation in the US market accompanied by government subsidy for agribusiness. Instead of simply closing the border to American product, they set up a system which caused the same consolidation and effectively shut most citizens out of that branch of agriculture.<br /> <br />      None of the several dozen government sites I visited explain that all of the rules regarding who may grow food and who may not, have the effect of causing a huge amount of consolidation in agriculture. Fewer and fewer small farms exist since they sell out to large farming corporations. The cost of purchasing quota is a major reason for this. For some foods such as eggs the quota can cost more than the cost of buying land, building barns and purchasing animals. If someone wanted to have a relatively small chicken operation with 1000 hens it&#039;s likely that the entire operation could be set up for $15,000. That will build a small barn leaving enough money to buy 1000 young chickens. But the price of quota is $250 per hen. So the farmer needs to shell out $250,000 to purchase quota. This cost, effectively puts most young farmers in a position where they are unable to enter the egg market.<br /> <br />     1000 chickens is not nearly enough to make a viable full-time farming enterprise. This many chickens are likely to produce 70 dozen eggs per day. A business 10 times this large with 10,000 chickens could produce 700 dozen eggs per day. The profit per dozen is generally under one dollar so this is not a very large business in monetary terms. But the quota for this little egg business would cost $2.5 million.<br /> <br />    There are exemptions for those producing small quantities for personal use or for farm gate sale. In British Columbia for laying hens that number is 99 birds. Those 99 birds will produce seven dozen eggs per day. Supposing that this person raises these hens in a manner suitable to be considered organic, they might get four dollars per dozen for a total of $28 per day gross income. Once all costs are factored in it might be possible to make $10 per day. There are different rates of exempt quantity for turkeys, frying chickens, hogs and other commodities. It&#039;s not legal to grow even one cranberry for personal use without purchasing quota.<br /> <br />     I had to search around the Internet quite a bit in order to find out exactly what happens to those who produce agricultural products without quota. Penalties can range from a stern warning to seizure of all assets, fines and imprisonment. The only reference to a fine I was able to find was $270,000 for a licensed producer who went over the quota amount. Most other information on this concerns farm seizure and livestock seizure.<br /> <br />      This regulation effectively keeps all but the wealthiest newcomers out of the market. The entire business of producing this food is thus reserved for big agribusiness. They have banking arrangements which allow these large corporations to borrow money for quota, barns and equipment. Anyone attempting to operate outside the quota system is denied access to capital.<br /> <br />     Regulations state that each chicken must have .75 ft.² for frying chickens and laying hens are given a slightly larger allotment. This minimum has become standard practice. Animal-rights activists point out that the quota system is largely responsible for the standardization of conditions which many consider inhumane. <br />     <br /> <br />      So that&#039;s how much control agribusiness has in British Columbia. Someone who owns a decent piece of farmland can&#039;t just start producing food. They must wade through all the information of what is legal and not legal and then choose what to produce. Of course the vast majority of small farmers are immediately put off by the huge costs involved. Thus we have a situation which prevents those who have agricultural land from becoming producers of our nations food.<br /> <br />      Small farmers organizations have been able to make a few inroads into production of controlled crops. There is now a program which allows certified organic growers to have 399 layers. And personal allotments for some other products have been raised in the past 10 years. But each gain has been at great legal expense.<br /> <br />    I think ultimately trying to chip away at the armor of agribusiness through incremental gains will be futile. It may make more sense to challenge the entire system under the charter of rights. The charter would need to be changed to state that any citizen may freely produce food for personal consumption or for sale. After that, all other laws concerning food should simply be a matter of protecting public safety.<br />     <br />      Almost any new system would serve the public interest better than what now exists. The current system criminalizes the simple act of producing food. If I were to raise 1000 chickens without purchasing quota the legal and financial ramifications are likely to be be greater than if I were to walk out into the street and assault the next person I see. That makes no sense to me and I doubt that it would make sense to most people. So the question becomes should the punishment fit the crime. And to be a crime, shouldn&#039;t there be an identifiable victim. The only possible victim here is large agribusiness as each new private producer would take out a little chunk of their monopoly.<br /> <br />     The real victim in this is every citizen since we are denied food choices. We are denied the ability to grow food for profit.  And for those who choose to not grow food ,we are denied freedom of choice. Since new farmers are kept out of the business most consumers end up consuming products produced under the quota system every day. <br /> <br />     Most Canadians remain blissfully unaware that agriculture is controlled to this degree by government and corporate interests. Only well-publicized legal challenges could possibly change the current state of affairs.<br /> <br />            Thank you: Dale Hodgins<br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11069/101087</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11069/101087</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Nov 3 2011 08:33:21 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Dale Hodgins]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>raising and selling rare (expensive) heritage breeds</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I notice that some breeds are in significant demand as future breeding stock, and are worth a good deal of money just on the sale of the animal.<br /> This seems pretty true for several breeds where the price for the live animal would be quite high for a living critter, maybe more than it is worth as a steak.<br /> <br /> Anybody making money the old fashioned way by selling rare breed livestock? What examples can you give?<br /> <br /> Richard]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11062/101009</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/11062/101009</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Nov 2 2011 20:24:10 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[R Hasting]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>MOVED: Where is the line between profit and integrity?</title>
				<description><![CDATA[This topic has been moved to <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.permies.com/bb/index.php?board=12" target="_new" >meaningless drivel</a>.<br /> <br /> [iurl]http://www.permies.com/bb/index.php?topic=10393.0[/iurl]]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10942/99798</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10942/99798</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Oct 27 2011 09:05:39 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[paul wheaton]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Four season marketing – local tourism</title>
				<description><![CDATA[     A common problem I see for farmers who try to tap into the tourist market is that usually it&#039;s a very seasonal thing. All the touristy activities happen during the summer when farmers are very busy people. This leads to the necessity of hiring help or curtailing other activities.<br /> <br />     In my region winters are wet. Although we seldom get snow that sticks around for more than a week it can still be miserable outside.  Along the coast we get fog and drizzle sometimes for weeks at a time. My place is 9 miles in land and my elevation often creates a situation where I&#039;m sitting in filtered sunlight while my neighbor down by the river is in fog.<br /> <br />     I&#039;m going to use my unique microclimate as a draw card in winter. Since I plan to have greenhouses with aquaponics and some conservatory areas with seating, this will no doubt appeal to visitors. They could go hiking  or cross-country skiing on the trails and then pop into the greenhouses to warm up. The petting zoo adjacent to the beaver pond will also bring people in.<br /> <br />     When I lived in St. Catherine&#039;s Ontario we had a winter situation that included plenty of cold damp weather but seldom enough snow for tobogganing and such. I used to take my young daughter to the Rice Road greenhouses and petting zoo. There was no admission charge but they sold plenty of vegetables and flowers and patrons could also purchase hot chocolate and other prepared items. We used to walk around looking at the animals and then enter the conservatory to warm up. We seldom left there without spending some money.<br /> <br />   Another place we used to go to was happy Rolfe&#039;s bird sanctuary and petting zoo. It had plenty of water features with swans, turtles etc. but it was closed down in the winter.<br /> <br />    The city of Niagara Falls had a beautiful conservatory attached to their public works facilities where they grow all the plants for park maintenance. This was also a fun outing for my daughter on cold winter days.<br /> <br />     I intend to incorporate features from all of these and from other parks and businesses I&#039;ve been to. Hopefully this will allow me to always have some retail activity on the farm throughout the year. My tour bus should play into this somehow. Most tour operators in my area have 4 busy months and then everybody gets laid off since few tourist are interested in cold rain and fog. I could see bringing people from the city only 8 miles away. I wouldn&#039;t charge much for the trip because this would be sort of a customer pickup service. I might even give people a cheaper fare when they purchase a minimum quantity of vegetables and fish.<br /> <br />    It&#039;s been my experience that you can&#039;t always trust customers to show up so I intend to drive to town and pick them up. :-)]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10878/99165</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10878/99165</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, Oct 24 2011 12:20:36 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Dale Hodgins]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Farm Tour Proposal--Dale's Bus</title>
				<description><![CDATA[    Dale here. <br /> <br />     I have a moneymaking proposition for many of our members. I have a 24 passenger tour bus and I plan to take paying passengers on tours of permaculture farms to eco-villages and to many other types of gatherings.<br /> <br />     This could only work for those who are along or near major highways that I&#039;ll be traveling since my bus is unsuited to rough terrain or off-road travel. For now I am just concentrating on Western Canada since I don&#039;t have licensing for the US. That&#039;s because I haven&#039;t applied for yet so I can&#039;t blame them :-). I&#039;ll pursue US licensing next summer. Eventually I would like to take trips to places like Portland and Eugene Oregon and to Missoula Montana. There are many eco-villages and permaculture farms between Vancouver and these places. I expect that many of the passengers will be attending workshops in green building techniques, rocket stove construction and things of an agricultural nature.<br /> <br />     Logistically, there needs to be plenty of room to bring a 30 foot long vehicle without scratching it up and it would be nice if there was an electoral hook up and a washroom available. I prefer to go to well-developed farms that have used green building techniques as well as permaculture. Aquaponics, vermaculture, rocket stoves and alternative energy systems of all types would be of interest to my passengers.<br /> <br />    Since there are many choices on where to go I don&#039;t want to make trips just to look at one nice garden or one rocket stove. There needs to be enough to make your place a legitimate destination for a touristy learning experience.<br /> <br />     Some may have a smaller set up which simply warrants an hour-long stopover. For a stopover like this I&#039;d be willing to pay $50 with the proviso that if we spend more than $150 as a group on farm produce or handicrafts that the $50 fee be waived.<br /> <br />       Effectively I&#039;ll be bringing you a busload of customers and you&#039;ll be entertaining them for an hour or so. I would certainly go for this at my place and I won&#039;t make any offer which I wouldn&#039;t be willing to accept if a group showed up at my farm.<br /> <br />   For those of you who are very well established and have created many interesting structures and living systems which would require hours to investigate and learn about I&#039;d like to propose a different scenario.    If I go to a campground I&#039;ll generally spend over $100 per night for a large group site which includes a bathroom, shower facilities etc. So I&#039;d be willing to pay $200 to do all of this at a farm where everyone can learn something during their camping experience. All we really need is a large parking space and some clean grass without too much goose poop on it since we&#039;d be setting up anywhere between 15 to 24 tents.<br /> <br />     My camping fees are a fixed cost so anything you can sell to the passengers over and above this would not cut into the $200. If you&#039;re able to provide breakfast for everybody that&#039;s got to be worth at least another $100. And whenever I&#039;m traveling with the bus we will be cooking meals along the way since it&#039;s set up for that. We&#039;ll constantly need to restock and that means I want to buy some of your organic produce, chicken, fish etc. so everyone can be well fed when we stay at campgrounds. So there&#039;s potential for a few hundred dollars worth of business each time we stop at your place.<br /> <br />     Some of you may already be doing some sort of farm tours and I&#039;d be interested to learn about your operation and location. I&#039;m sure this will work out well for all involved and look forward to seeing you in the near future.   Thank you: Dale  250-588-3366 or <a class="snap_shots" href="mailto:dalesbus@live.com">dalesbus@live.com</a><br /> <br />            See kids.  It takes hard work and determination to set up your farm and get everything up and running. But once you have a well-established operation the customers come to you, and sometimes they show up 24 at a time and give you $200 so they can rent your lawn for the night. <br /> <br />     <br /> <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10862/99013</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10862/99013</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Oct 23 2011 15:06:21 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Dale Hodgins]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Getting full retail for farm production –  various strategies</title>
				<description><![CDATA[   In almost any business marketing is the thing that will make or break the enterprise. <br /> <br />      With many farm products at the retail level the farmer receives a fairly small percentage of the retail price. This is most pronounced with grains and other highly processed items. In checking out what retailers are willing to pay for fruit and vegetables in my area, I&#039;m likely to receive 60% of the retail price. It&#039;s much worse elsewhere. None of them thought much of buying fish from a small producer.<br /> <br />    I only have three or 4 acres which I consider prime agricultural land so there&#039;s no way I&#039;m ever going to be big enough that I can afford to play in the economy of scale that allows a farm to produce for large retailers and receive a small percentage of the take.<br /> <br />     So it seems that the only way I&#039;m going to receive maximum benefit for my efforts is to become my own best customer. No, I don&#039;t have 20 kids to eat it all, but I do plan to get retail value for much of my production by feeding visitors at my bed and breakfast(not yet built) and travelers on my 24 passenger camping bus(I have that and it&#039;s paid for). In many cases I&#039;ll get far more than the retail value of this produce since it will be served up restaurant style.<br /> <br />     I&#039;ve done plenty of horsetrading in the past and will no doubt pay for mechanical work, labor, and innumerable other services with produce from the farm.  By growing a large variety of fruit, vegetables, fish, meat and lumber, yep lumber, it&#039;s more likely that a good percentage of this can be used in house or sold to people I know for full retail. If I were only growing wheat or oats it&#039;s unlikely that there would be enough people in my personal network to possibly consume enough of this to make much of a dent in supply.<br /> <br />     My largest input cost will certainly be labor and my tour bus is a perfect vehicle(pun intended) to ensure that I have willing laborers. Every tour operator I see, travels two thirds empty half of the time which I consider to be a horrible waste of resources and a lost opportunity for profit. So far as I know I will be the only tour operator on the island who will allow customers who can&#039;t afford their trip to work it off on an organic farm. I&#039;m sure that word of this will travel like wildfire amongst the backpacking crowd many of whom have already done woofing elsewhere. This should allow me to stretch the tourist season by a few months. The upscale bed-and-breakfast is unlikely to be occupied in the off-season so I&#039;ll fill the place up with young people who are willing to work the farm and go on bus trips. Very few farms seeking woofers can offer such a generous package so I will be in position to sort out the duds and only take those who can get along and be productive.<br /> <br />     I&#039;m building quite a bit more accommodation on the farm than I require since my children are largely grown and I am single. I&#039;ll be renting out rooms, primarily to those who want to be fed well and who want to live in an idyllic parklike setting rather than a city flophouse. Tenants will all have the option of paying for some of their rent with farm duties. Again the in-house thing.<br /> <br />     I&#039;m creating a de facto park on 700 m of my tree-lined roadway. Everyone who is travels my paths will see hugle beds,aquaponics ponds and greenhouses, and livestock along with signs indicating that there is organic produce for sale. So by inviting the public to use the steep naturally forested area of the property I will effectively be inviting people to the farm gate as well. When they buy stuff there will be no middleman.<br /> <br />    Once I have enough production to warrant advertising I will contact every customer who has ever bought recycled goods from me since this crowd tends to be concerned about the quality of their food as well. Every customer on the bus will be given the opportunity to purchase what ever is in surplus and I&#039;ll encourage anyone who helps me to market to their personal circle. I&#039;m sure I&#039;ll think of more ways to get full retail as time goes on.<br /> <br />     By following this path it&#039;s quite likely that I will never have so much surplus that I&#039;m forced to sell it off at rock-bottom prices.<br /> <br />     Tell us what you&#039;ve done to cut out the middleman and ensure that you reap the lions share from your farm, garden and forest production.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10685/97467</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10685/97467</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Oct 13 2011 15:46:27 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Dale Hodgins]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Glamping--glamorous camping</title>
				<description><![CDATA[In Vol. 35, No. 3 of Farm Show (2011), there is an article on “Glamping” as a rural getaway (glamorous camping). “You still sit around the campfire under the stars and enjoy nature. But your wall tent will already be pitched with a real bed and real linens with amenities like running water, electricity, a refrigerator, and gas barbeque for cooking.” I’m all about traditionali camping, but, willing to spend a little money, this sounds pretty good to me! A host to a glamping site says, “People come out here and uncharge.” He suggests it’s an idea rural producers could use to diversify their income, although you may need to look into permits and zoning that might be required.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10571/96420</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10571/96420</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Oct 6 2011 11:37:35 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Suzy Bean]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Beginning an Orchard</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Hello Permies!<br /> <br /> I&#039;m new. Be nice. for years I have driven past 6 vacant connect city lots. for years I&#039;ve dreamt of doing something with them-planting clover to attract bees, planting pumpkins etc. A generalized squat operation/stewardship on forgotten land.<br /> <br /> Well, a little over a month ago I was introduced to the Paw Paw. OMG NOM NOM NOM! delicious and as I discovered very nutritious.<br /> <br /> So I&#039;ve put together a proposal to establish an orchard of paw paws on these lots. I shared the proposal with the mayor of my city and she was excited, giving the project her thumbs up. Though there are many hurdles yet to overcome.<br /> <br /> Has anyone out there started out a small urban orchard? <br /> Any tips on irrigation systems? (currently imagining a system of regular and soaker hoses)<br /> Anyone ever establish a 501c3 farm or orchard?<br /> <br /> I&#039;d love to share my proposal with anyone who&#039;d bother looking at it. <br /> <br /> Cheers,<br /> <br /> Mike D<br /> Hamtown Farms]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10557/96303</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10557/96303</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Oct 5 2011 14:45:08 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Michael Davis]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>seling ornamental gourds to fund yearly garden expenses</title>
				<description><![CDATA[My small ornamental gourd patch is starting to die back as the nights are getting cooler. and i can see all the little gems that have grown there. I grow&nbsp; mini gourds and pumpkins to sell to the Flower Shop for fall arrangements and decorating. People go crazy for all the little baby pumpkins and warty bright colored gourds.<br /> <br /> I have a very small CASH CROP and usually get between 125-200 to sell. I usually make about $75 by the end of the season...that is not much but it covers all my seeds and a new tool or something for the garden....so that ensures that the food from garden really is free.<br />  <br /> I have also grown ornamental corn witch is very easy to do...but my space is currently too small as the ornamental corn crosses the sweet corn and that tastes like a cross between leather and starchy potatoes ;0(&nbsp; &nbsp; any way the corn is also an easy sell people will by a dozen just because it is so pretty<br /> <br /> any body have suggestions of other easy resale crops??]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10505/95826</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10505/95826</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, Oct 2 2011 22:17:10 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Thelma McGowan]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>$100K per acre?</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Ran Prieur just put a link to this website in his excellent blog - <br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://extension.osu.edu/news-releases/archives/2010/december/osu-urban-farming-study-whats-the-best-way-to-turn-a-parking-lot-into-a-garden" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://extension.osu.edu/news-releases/archives/2010/december/osu-urban-farming-study-whats-the-best-way-to-turn-a-parking-lot-into-a-garden</a><br /> <br /> It&#039;s about trialing three ways to grow crops on abandoned asphalt areas.&nbsp; But, about paragraph # 11,&nbsp; I see this - <br /> <br /> &quot;Kovach recently completed a six-year study of fruit and vegetable polyculture: “ecologically designed” mixed-crop plots that maximize biological diversity, minimize pest problems and earn the equivalent of nearly $100,000 an acre a year.....&quot;<br /> <br /> So he&#039;s done polyculture and <u>quantified</u> the economic results....hmmm.... must research farther....this is in Ohio, btw.&nbsp; <br /> <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10485/95650</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10485/95650</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sat, Oct 1 2011 17:58:10 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[nancy sutton]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Value-adding</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m considering several different farm products that would go under the category of &quot;value adding&quot; -- making things like heat and eat packages, smoked meats, cheeses, fermented foods, etc.&nbsp; I was wondering if anyone here has done that kind of thing and whether you though it was worth your trouble or not.<br /> <br /> One of the weaknesses in the market is that cooking from scratch is becoming a lost art.&nbsp; The number of people who can take a collection of whole vegetables and cuts of meat and make something good from it seems to be pretty small.&nbsp; That made me think that I could reach a broader market at the same time as getting a better price by selling stuff that&#039;s easier to cook.&nbsp; I know there are mountains of red tape and regulations regarding this process, but it still seems like it might be worth the struggle.&nbsp; Anybody else doing or considering this?]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10475/95555</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10475/95555</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sat, Oct 1 2011 05:35:01 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Erik Lee]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Succession in the Marketplace</title>
				<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s been a lot of discussion on here lately about whether some models of profit are better or worse or more sustainable than others with regard to permaculture.  Specifically there is some doubt as to whether the teaching/tours/writing profit model (as practiced by the more famous permaculture folks) is sustainable and really permaculture or not.  I was thinking about that and a little metaphor dawned on me that I thought was interesting, so I thought I&#039;d share and find out what the rest of you think of it.<br /> <br /> As far as almost everyone outside of this forum is concerned, permaculture is currently a fringe movement that they figure will rise and fall like many others have before.  They look at our ideas with a certain amount of eye-rolling and head-shaking, if for no other reason than there are so many other examples of passion being confused with zealotry, and they usually pass without making much of a difference.  As a result of that, there isn&#039;t much interest on a broad scale in paying extra for permaculture food products, which leads people on the forum here to wonder if permaculture is really not as profitable as it seems like it should be.<br /> <br /> So here&#039;s the metaphor: succession.  Right now, the market for permaculture products is a barren wasteland.  It&#039;s soil that&#039;s been chemically farmed for 50 years and then abandoned.  As a result, the only &quot;permaculture plants&quot; (i.e. businesses) that can survive are the hard core generalists that can do everything for themselves.  The pioneer species.  In order to succeed in this environment, you have to make your own fertility, so to speak, by developing your market in whatever way is possible.  This is what I think is being done with the tours, book writing, lectures, classes, etc.  The interest right now in permaculture is more of an intellectual curiosity for most (hence farm tours and lectures), and a difficult dream for others (classes, PDC, etc.).  So the nutrients to be found in today&#039;s market don&#039;t come from selling tomatoes, but rather from efforts at education and demand-building.  There is certainly some demand for products, but it&#039;s not yet at a level where somebody can just plunk down somewhere, say &quot;I&#039;m selling truly sustainable carrots,&quot; and expect to earn a living.  However, like natural succession, this won&#039;t last forever.<br /> <br /> If the efforts of the pioneers are successul, the market will evolve toward higher fertility (more demand).  The duff and litter they are dropping is in the form of a more educated customer base and enlightened views of the importance of how their food is produced.  The next succession stage will be reached when this has spread enough that if you ask a random person on the street what they look for in their food shopping, they&#039;ll mention sustainability as one of the criteria.  At this point, I think we&#039;ll reach the &quot;fat times&quot; for those who started into production early.  After some demand has been established, and there are a few suppliers that can feed it with superior quality products, word will start to spread and things will snowball to the point where lots of people suddenly realize that there&#039;s a lot of money to be made by making things that people can feel good about buying.  The rub here is that it takes some time to get an established system that can produce in excess of its own needs, so this is a window of time where the early adopters will probably be able to sell nearly anything they can produce.<br /> <br /> As more and more people come online with their own permaculture operations, the market will enter the final stage of succession, where it becomes an established forest.  A fertile forest is distinguished by a high level of stability, and a staggering number of specialist niches.  The stability of the system allows the specialization to happen because you don&#039;t have to worry about sudden shifts in the things you depend on, and I think the same thing will happen with the market for permaculture goods.  Before the entrance of thousands of new permaculture producers into the market, the demand was high enough that you could sell pretty much anything you could produce.  After the producers ramp up though, it will be time to get really good at a few things and make those into your main income.  That&#039;s not to say that there will be some kind of &quot;permaculture monoculture&quot; developing, but rather that it will be possible to look at the vast array of customers and pick a small niche for yourself that you believe you can do the best possible job for.<br /> <br /> So that&#039;s how I see it going -- the pioneer species (generalist farms) build fertility (demand) for a while.  After they&#039;ve been at it for a while the soil is fertile, but it takes some time for the more specialized species to move in (specialist farms).  During that period there is a lot of opportunity to grow in any number of different directions.  After a time, the area becomes a forest with its infinite complexity of niches and high degree of intrinsic stability, at which point it&#039;ll be possible to make a good living with a simple strategy to do the best you can in a couple of areas.<br /> <br /> So in my opinion, the question of whether a particular profit model is sustainable is kind of hard to answer truthfully -- the education/touring/writing model is what is needed at this stage of succession, but it will be less called for (though never completely absent) in the future, assuming a successful path is followed from barren wasteland to fertile forest.  In this case I would argue that &quot;sustainable&quot; means &quot;adaptable&quot; because the environment will be changing as a result of our efforts.<br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10416/95083</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10416/95083</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Sep 28 2011 05:43:55 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Erik Lee]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>urban ag aquaponics model from London </title>
				<description><![CDATA[Here is a NY Times article about <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/arts/19iht-DESIGN19.html?_r=2" target="_new" rel="nofollow">Making Food Seriously Local</a>. <br /> <br /> Once the Times archives the article, you might need a password to log in, so I&#039;ve also created a .pdf file and attached it here as well. But the pics are more fun in the link because you can make them larger.<br /> <br /> Interesting urban ag model with lots of permaculture aspects: public funds and donated/recycled materials used to renovate a London eyesore; lots of volunteers helped with the cleanup; businesses donated tech/growing stuff (for publicity, I assume); income model includes selling food to a local cafe, renting the space both day and eve.<br /> <br /> While I have concerns that such closed, engineered systems could be difficult to maintain naturally, it&#039;s still quite fascinating in terms of the support they&#039;ve gained.<br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10312/94259</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10312/94259</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Sep 22 2011 13:28:35 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Jocelyn Campbell]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Healthy cultivation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Hi there, I have great interest and I just want to know that what are the best suggestion to grow in NY country side,I am just starting the new cultivation land and any help will be appreciatable.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10287/94002</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10287/94002</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Sep 21 2011 00:48:24 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Lewis 01]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Growing Rice in New England</title>
				<description><![CDATA[We harvested our first rice ever last tuesday here in vermont.  We got seed from the usda seed bank to grow out and selectively breed for the northeast climate.  The variety we started with was hayayuki which is grown in the far northern part of japan which has a similar growing season as us.  We only got 10 grams to start with and of that we ended up with enough seed to grow in a paddy that was somewhere close to 12&#039;x14&#039;.  It&#039;s still hanging up to dry so we don&#039;t know how much we ended up with but it looks like a decent haul. <br /> <br /> We grew azolla as a water ground cover to suppress weeds and supply nitrogen.  We are also going to try to use it as animal feed and garden nitrogen booster. We also grew water cress on the edges and we have been harvesting it for market every week.  Next year we are going to try to make a few different plants and develop a polyculture that works here so we aren&#039;t just growing fields of rice and rice only. <br /> We think that others in new england should try to grow it in their backyards and as a agricultural crop.<br /> <br /> We have a kickstarter project going now that hopefully will help us build our paddies this fall if your interested in supporting it you can check it out at <a class="snap_shots" href="http://kck.st/oCUkod" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://kck.st/oCUkod</a> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10229/93444</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10229/93444</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sat, Sep 17 2011 15:54:01 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[jbreezy McCoy]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Creating a Veggie Pack</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Hello,<br /> I&#039;m really starting out (for about 2 years now), but next year I&#039;d like to run a pilot program of food cultivation and distribution to people in my area (by bike w/ bike-trailer still to be built). My goal for next year is to find 5 people who I can sell weekly or bi-monthly vegetable packs (half boxes or full boxes). The sum total should be 5 boxes of food per delivery.<br /> <br /> My current problem is quantifying how much of each thing I should grow. One strategy would be to just grow a bunch of stuff and see what comes out. But perhaps it&#039;s better to think in terms of <br /> <br /> 1 person = 3 tomato plants.<br /> <br /> Obviously, someone might like some veggies and not others, but I&#039;m going toward standardized food boxes, so that&#039;s less of a problem. The problem is having enough variety and being able to fill the boxes at appropriate times.<br /> <br /> Although things are developing, right now my ideas on what to grow are:<br /> Leafy things (lettuces, basil, parsley, some asian varieties like pak choi, maybe greens of some sort, chard)<br /> Beets<br /> Patty Pan / Ball Zucchini<br /> Summer Squash<br /> Cucumbers<br /> Eggplant<br /> Tomatoes<br /> Peppers<br /> Carrots<br /> Spinach<br /> Peas<br /> Corn (mainly for myself, but if there&#039;s any leftovers...)<br /> Beans<br /> Potatoes<br /> <br /> Any help developing this idea and getting a handle on how much to grow would be great.<br /> If anyone has any idea of better varieties or anything perennial that I could relatively easily get my hands on, I&#039;m all ears.<br /> Thanks,<br /> William]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10178/92952</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10178/92952</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, Sep 14 2011 07:42:17 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[William James]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>How much do you charge or pay for fresh chicken eggs?</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I have been selling my fresh eggs to co-workers for a couple years now. They often tell me I should charge more.....and maybe I should...but....I don&#039;t really want to nickel and dime My friends.<br /> In the end I make enough money from the eggs to pay for the feed I buy so it equals out to free eggs for me. I charge $2.50 a dozen.<br /> <br /> I am curious how&nbsp; much others charge and who they are selling to. I am thinking of putting lights in the hen house to keep the girls laying longer in the winter, but I am not sure it is worth it??<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10090/92332</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10090/92332</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, Sep 9 2011 22:04:23 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Thelma McGowan]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Maintaining Privacy</title>
				<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m new to the forums here and am curious as to how some of you have dealt with the loss of privacy as your lives have become more public.<br /> <br /> First a little background on me to help you better understand the situation:<br /> I am in my early 50&#039;s and my wife her late 40&#039;s, not that that matters other than to say we have been around the block a few times. I own a small, specialty building material supply business and my wife is a personal trainer, so professionally, our lives are very public. Our home has always been a refuge for us and we really appreciate the privacy it has afforded us, but that will be changing soon.<br /> <br /> We live on an old 20 acre farm/homestead in a mixed small city/suburban/semi-rural county in western Washington that we own free and clear. Without going into all the details, for several years we have been working towards developing the property as a multifaceted agri-tourism location and will begin implementation next spring if we continue to progress as planned.<br /> <br /> Our youngest heads off to University next week and for the first time in over 25 years we will be empty nesters, although we do have a couple international students boarding with us that attend the local college. The construction industry has been devastated in this economy and my little business has not been spared so the timing couldn&#039;t be better for us (me) to make the leap. <br /> <br /> I have noticed that unlike most forums, many of you appear to use your real names and there are also seems to be many here earning income from their farms, so you seem like the ideal crowd to pose the question to. We have given this much consideration and both feel very strongly that we are up to it. I&#039;m not necessarily seeking advice for my situation but rather am interested in hearing some thoughts on how others have dealt with maintaining privacy as your lives have become more public.<br /> <br /> I hope this makes sense.]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10031/91798</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/10031/91798</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, Sep 6 2011 18:05:50 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Gregory Hatfield]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Buying farmland</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Here is the dilemma.&nbsp; Let&#039;s say for example, I have a large sum of money in cash just sitting around.&nbsp; I don&#039;t want to invest in equities or gold or anything because if the great depression happens again, I can&#039;t eat gold or stocks or cash.&nbsp; <br /> <br /> I could use this money to buy some good land perhaps.&nbsp; But I need to stay at my job and I&#039;m just a newbie at farming or permaculture.&nbsp; Do you think anyone would be interested in &quot;developing&quot; my land into a sustainable permaculture type farm?&nbsp; In exchange, they could live on the land for free and they could sell whatever they produce for profit.&nbsp;  If the sh!t ever hit the fan, I would move myself and my family into the land and they would be more than welcome to stay on the land with us.&nbsp; then they could teach me how to farm and we could farm it together.&nbsp;  If economic collapse doesn&#039;t happen after about 5 years, I would ask for some rent on the land which would be predetermined.<br /> <br /> Does this sound like a reasonable idea or is it just stupid?]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/9733/89017</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/9733/89017</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, Aug 16 2011 15:32:22 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[neoplasticity Hatfield]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>Sugar Mountain Farm Butcher Shop Progress Update</title>
				<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s an update of our project of building our own on-farm USDA/State inspected slaughterhouse, butcher shop and smokehouse at Sugar Mountain Farm:<br /> <br /> <a class="snap_shots" href="http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/2011/08/butcher-shop-construction-tour.html" target="_blank" >http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/2011/08/butcher-shop-construction-tour.html</a><br /> <br /> Last week the head of the Vermont Agency of Agriculture Meat Inspection came out to check out our progress. He&#039;s been working with us since the beginning. Very helpful.<br /> <br /> We just did one pour of concrete, putting in the reefer plumbing slab. We&#039;re now working on the subdivisions of the six rooms in the refrigerated two thirds of our facility and then we&#039;ll simultaneously pour the walls and ceilings for those areas. While that cures we&#039;ll work on the administration and abattoir.<br /> <br /> This spring we got together all the money we need to finish so that hurdle is out of the way. Banks and the government were no help there but CSA Pre-Buys, small loans from individuals and our bootstrapping made it happen. Now we&#039;re cranking full speed on closing in this fall and then hopefully we&#039;ll be cutting our own meat in the winter.<br /> <br /> Cheers,<br /> <br /> -Walter<br /> Sugar Mountain Farm<br /> in Vermont]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/9714/88881</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/9714/88881</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Mon, Aug 15 2011 15:12:09 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Walter Jeffries]]></author>
			</item>
			<item>
				<title>market stand/value added product/food truck kickstarter campaign</title>
				<description><![CDATA[This is an excellent example of a value added market stand or food truck business. I don&#039;t think she grows the food herself, but she sounds committed to local, seasonal food. It&#039;s a cool model and was successful on kickstarter.<br /> <br /> Check it out: <a class="snap_shots" href="http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/980025442/spread-goodness-around-atlanta?ref=card" target="_blank" >http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/980025442/spread-goodness-around-atlanta?ref=card</a>. <br /> ]]></description>
				<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/9535/87368</guid>
				<link>http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/preList/9535/87368</link>
				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, Aug 4 2011 12:13:21 MDT]]></pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[Jocelyn Campbell]]></author>
			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>

