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Doubts about Holzer?

Yone' Ward


Joined: Feb 14, 2012
Posts: 135
Location: Springdale, WA USA - Cold Mediterranean Climate
Some people go straight to the sue option as soon as something goes wrong. Once they go that route fixing the problem is impossible because all that person wants now is blood.


Just call me Uncle Rice.
17 years in a straw bale house.
Rose Pinder


Joined: Nov 18, 2011
Posts: 124
I can't make much sense of the translated website, so this isn't a comment on what happened or Holzer or the woman who wrote the book.

A few people here have talked about how you can't apply what works in one place to another place. That's true, but isn't the point of permaculture that it is a design science, and once you have those design tools you can apply them appropriately to any situation (climate, land etc)? If I hired a permaculture practitioner to work on my land I would expect that they could adapt their own experience and knowledge to my situation, and that if they couldn't then they would need to address that.

I haven't done one, but as I understand it the PDC specifically teaches students to work in all situations, not just the one they live in.

I also think it's reasonable if you pay a professional to work on your land that you can trust their expertise without having to increase your own to that level. A few comments here have suggested that one should learn permaculture and figure out all the issues oneself, but that's not possible for some people. Not everyone who owns land is going to be a permie. That's why we need professional permie designers
Abe Connally


Joined: Feb 20, 2010
Posts: 1314
Location: Chihuahua Desert
    
    6
Rose Pinder wrote:I also think it's reasonable if you pay a professional to work on your land that you can trust their expertise without having to increase your own to that level. A few comments here have suggested that one should learn permaculture and figure out all the issues oneself, but that's not possible for some people. Not everyone who owns land is going to be a permie. That's why we need professional permie designers

Exactly! Otherwise, what are you paying them for?
Abe Connally


Joined: Feb 20, 2010
Posts: 1314
Location: Chihuahua Desert
    
    6
Yone' Ward wrote:Some people go straight to the sue option as soon as something goes wrong. Once they go that route fixing the problem is impossible because all that person wants now is blood.

Yeah, you're right, though I don't know if that applies in this case or not. It seems like a lot went wrong there, and none of us know the details of the situation (what was paid, how it was handled, etc), but I imagine there was a lot of money spent for a lot that went wrong.

Does anyone have contact info for Holzer? Let's get his story on here.
Tyler Ludens
pollinator

Joined: Jun 25, 2010
Posts: 5318
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
    
  20
Rose Pinder wrote:
A few people here have talked about how you can't apply what works in one place to another place. That's true, but isn't the point of permaculture that it is a design science, and once you have those design tools you can apply them appropriately to any situation (climate, land etc)? If I hired a permaculture practitioner to work on my land I would expect that they could adapt their own experience and knowledge to my situation, and that if they couldn't then they would need to address that.


Keep in mind Sepp isn't a "permaculture practitioner" he is a practitioner of "Holzer permaculture" his own invention. He can't be compared to a permaculture designer who has learned permaculture from books, PDC, seminars, workshops etc. He's practicing his own thing which he invented on his own land. He doesn't practice Permaculture (the design system invented by Mollison and Holmgren) , he practices Holzer permaculture (invented by Sepp Holzer).
Abe Connally


Joined: Feb 20, 2010
Posts: 1314
Location: Chihuahua Desert
    
    6
Keep in mind Sepp isn't a "permaculture practitioner" he is a practitioner of "Holzer permaculture" his own invention. He can't be compared to a permaculture designer who has learned permaculture from books, PDC, seminars, workshops etc. He's practicing his own thing which he invented on his own land. He doesn't practice Permaculture (the design system invented by Mollison and Holmgren) , he practices Holzer permaculture (invented by Sepp Holzer).

I doubt most permie newbies and outsiders see it like that, though.
Tyler Ludens
pollinator

Joined: Jun 25, 2010
Posts: 5318
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
    
  20
It's true, most permie newbies and outsiders don't know squat about permaculture (hey, do I?!? I've never taken a PDC, etc!) Not sure how to break through the "I don't know permaculture but I know I distrust it!" sort of mindset I often run across on the internets (can't speak to the real world because I've never met a single other permie in the real world, not one!)
Abe Connally


Joined: Feb 20, 2010
Posts: 1314
Location: Chihuahua Desert
    
    6
that's terrible, Tyler. You're gonna have to come visit (if I count as a permie).

I run into that mindset a lot: "that's that hippy religion, right?"
Tyler Ludens
pollinator

Joined: Jun 25, 2010
Posts: 5318
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
    
  20
I would love to visit!

Abe Connally


Joined: Feb 20, 2010
Posts: 1314
Location: Chihuahua Desert
    
    6
did Mollison ever take a PDC? what about Fukuoka? Lawton?
Peter DeJay


Joined: Aug 10, 2011
Posts: 102
Location: Southern Oregon
Lots of great discussion going on here! While I will admit I haven't looked at any of these articles about this controversy, I just wanted to say that no matter how simple or complex a system is, the bottom line is if it is installed/implemented on your land, even if you had someone help you set it up, if you don't fully understand the what and why of whats being done to/with the land then it is doomed to fail. Permaculture, Holzer Permaculture, or even Organic Gardening are not just install and forget turn-key projects, they are a constant feedback loop of imagining-implementing-observing-modifying-more observing, etc. The reason so many people I believe resonate with Sepp's ideas is that they understand the genius behind them. Right?
Rose Pinder


Joined: Nov 18, 2011
Posts: 124
Tyler Ludens wrote:
Rose Pinder wrote:
A few people here have talked about how you can't apply what works in one place to another place. That's true, but isn't the point of permaculture that it is a design science, and once you have those design tools you can apply them appropriately to any situation (climate, land etc)? If I hired a permaculture practitioner to work on my land I would expect that they could adapt their own experience and knowledge to my situation, and that if they couldn't then they would need to address that.


Keep in mind Sepp isn't a "permaculture practitioner" he is a practitioner of "Holzer permaculture" his own invention. He can't be compared to a permaculture designer who has learned permaculture from books, PDC, seminars, workshops etc. He's practicing his own thing which he invented on his own land. He doesn't practice Permaculture (the design system invented by Mollison and Holmgren) , he practices Holzer permaculture (invented by Sepp Holzer).


Nevertheless, if one charges money to do a permaculture conversion on someone else's land, there are responsibilities that go with that. As I said, I can't follow the translation well enough to have an opinion about the situation with Sepp Holzer and the woman. My comment was more in response to things said in this thread.

While I think there are plenty of things one can do and call permaculture, I do believe that if one charges money for it, then it needs to be within certain limits. Being able to adapt one's experience and practice to other locations seems a core thing that every professional permie should do (or they should only work on land the same as their own).
Rose Pinder


Joined: Nov 18, 2011
Posts: 124
Abe, I think Lawton took his PDC with Mollison. AFAIK Fukuoka never claimed to be teaching or charging for 'permaculture'. And I'm pretty sure Mollison has taken many, many PDCs


Peter DeJay wrote:Lots of great discussion going on here! While I will admit I haven't looked at any of these articles about this controversy, I just wanted to say that no matter how simple or complex a system is, the bottom line is if it is installed/implemented on your land, even if you had someone help you set it up, if you don't fully understand the what and why of whats being done to/with the land then it is doomed to fail. Permaculture, Holzer Permaculture, or even Organic Gardening are not just install and forget turn-key projects, they are a constant feedback loop of imagining-implementing-observing-modifying-more observing, etc. The reason so many people I believe resonate with Sepp's ideas is that they understand the genius behind them. Right?


That's true, and some of the responsibility is with the land owner and some with the person doing the project. I'm guessing that problems like this one arise because of communication problems.
Rose Pinder


Joined: Nov 18, 2011
Posts: 124
http://www.permacultureglobal.com/users/19-geoff-lawton

Tyler Ludens
pollinator

Joined: Jun 25, 2010
Posts: 5318
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
    
  20
Rose Pinder wrote: I'm guessing that problems like this one arise because of communication problems.


100% agree. Most of the problems between people under any circumstances arise because of communication problems!
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14156
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
With nothing more than glancing at the pages, and glancing through these comments, my gut feeling on all this is:

1) I cannot help but think that monsanto or some other icky organization is behind it.

2) the pictures don't look like what holzer does. So i kinda wonder how involved he really was.

3) When people ask for my advice on stuff, many of them seem to already know what they want to do and they want me to "bless" their ideas. And a lot of people seem to just not come anywhere close to understanding what I am trying to say. Then they go and do crazy stuff and say that that is what I said. I cannot help but think that this could be a possibility.

4) Suppose Sepp is trying to do a job and some crazy woman is out there telling him that he is doing it all wrong, and undoing things, and doing stupid things simultaneously - or requiring him to do crazy things which he refuses to do.

Based on what little I know about this whole situation, I expect that the woman doing the suing is a lunatic and Sepp remains as awesome as ever. I suspect that if I walk in and get every last detail of information on everything going on, that that will be the final analysis also.

Further: I think you should all expect to see stuff like this coming up A LOT. The future of what happens on this planet may very will be defined by the conversation that follows in this thread.



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Lloyd George


Joined: Jan 25, 2012
Posts: 159
I think paul is very much correct i this....I also think that money is louder than talk when dealing with the giants...monsanto, cargill etc. I worry about where this will go.
already we see big agriculture competing with big oil for water rights. greeeaaaat.
Alex Ames


Joined: Feb 24, 2012
Posts: 304
    
    1
Well if we give Sepp the mountains of the world and Salatin the plains and meadows and Bill Mollison
the yards and public lands there would be no food shortage and we would be able to eat like man was
intended to eat. That will not happen but it is not insanity to imagine it.
Susan Noyes


Joined: Dec 06, 2011
Posts: 50
Location: Dallas TX
paul wheaton wrote:

2) the pictures don't look like what holzer does. So i kinda wonder how involved he really was.


Here is an interesting thread about Sepp terrace implementation:

http://www.permies.com/t/8565/permaculture/Holzer-terraces
Alex Ames


Joined: Feb 24, 2012
Posts: 304
    
    1
Susan Noyes wrote:
paul wheaton wrote:

2) the pictures don't look like what holzer does. So i kinda wonder how involved he really was.


Here is an interesting thread about Sepp terrace implementation:

http://www.permies.com/t/8565/permaculture/Holzer-terraces


Wow! What a disaster that could be with continued rain. I wonder how that turned out?

It appears no vegetation was left in place as they terraced that whole hillside. I might undertake
one terrace at a time but nothing that radical.
R Scott


Joined: Apr 13, 2012
Posts: 1814
Location: Kansas Zone 6a
    
  19
paul wheaton wrote:
Further: I think you should all expect to see stuff like this coming up A LOT. The future of what happens on this planet may very will be defined by the conversation that follows in this thread.


Very much like what happened to Reynolds. He learned some HARD lessons in how to write contracts and experimenting on someone else's home.

We have "adults" these days that only know how to run to mommy/daddy (lawyer or zoning/code enforcement) and not actually resolve problems themselves. We also have adults (and corporations and .gov) that only know how to bully to get their way. Very few actually fix their own problems anymore.

Not looking too promising for mankind....outside places like this, anyway.




"You must be the change you want to see in the world." "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Mahatma Gandhi
"Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words." --Francis of Assisi. "Family farms work when the whole family works the farm." -- Adam Klaus
Shawn Harper


Joined: Mar 01, 2012
Posts: 210
Location: Portlandia, Oregon
paul wheaton wrote:

3) When people ask for my advice on stuff, many of them seem to already know what they want to do and they want me to "bless" their ideas. And a lot of people seem to just not come anywhere close to understanding what I am trying to say. Then they go and do crazy stuff and say that that is what I said. I cannot help but think that this could be a possibility.



I'm inclined to beleive this is the case. I have personally had experience with this. Often people will listen to only the part they want to hear, but it's your fault when they only do half of what you said


See the animal in his cage that you built, are you sure what side you're on?
Abe Connally


Joined: Feb 20, 2010
Posts: 1314
Location: Chihuahua Desert
    
    6
I think this went beyond simple advice.

There are some documents on that site where Holzer was representing his client at councils/courts for permissions or appeals. According to that site, Holzer billed her for the work he did. The budget for the project includes a budgeted item for "Holzer Permaculture", in the amount of over 200,000 Euro. Additionally, because some of his "appeals" were denied by the council, she is being forced to demolish some of the work he did (dams and ponds).

It remains to be seen just how much of a part of the project Holzer was involved in, but if he was representing and charging her, then he was employed. As such, his name is tied to the project.
Michael Radelut


Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 193
Location: Germany, 7b-ish
Abe Connally wrote:I wonder what he charged her for that work?


No need for that, it's all been detailed here:
http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jena-hof.at%2Fneu%2Fcontent.php%3Fop%3Dnews%26m1%3D1%26m2%3D4%26m3%3D3%26kz%3D41%26name%3DAufstellung%2520Ing.Schneider%26modul%3D%26menue%3D38%26sub1%3D41%26lg1%3D
Rufus Laggren


Joined: Feb 23, 2012
Posts: 322
Location: Chicago/San Francisco
    
    4
I have personally witnessed something very similar to Mr. Holzer's problem play out with one of my best friends. There were no explicitly guilty parties, but there was also a real ongoing failure of communication where neither party stood up and made a serious effort to address issues until the whole thing blew up, always saying it was the other guys place to say something. Everybody lost important money, but nobody got hurt crippled; but there were great opportunities lost and it left a bad taste for many years for everybody involved.

Developing your own system and methods and sharing and promoting them among well educated and motivated people is one particular skill set. Providing professional services to non-expert consumers (using this or any other expertise) is an entirely different, almost unrelated, skill set. The latter centers on, for lack of better phrase, customer management. It must include policies and practices designed expressly to 1) promote clear and legal understanding (this includes contracts, but also such things as milestones, progress reporting, clear delineation of responsibilities, procedures for changes or problem resolution); 2) define the job and "deliverables clearly and legally; 3) provide fall back and make-whole procedures (officially met by insurance and arbitration clauses these days).

Large companies have all this stuff codified in a zillion forms etc, but the principles must be practiced by anybody in business and don't necessarily require reams of paper. Most small business rely on the experience and CAUTION of their main decision makers, and on adhering to commonly agreed practices (eg. codes). There is a reason most (honest) businessmen are really, really conservative and slow to jump on new band wagons. They understand they may be dealing with important parts of people's lives and that sure as death and taxes there _will_ be serious problems and disagreements - the best laid plans of mice... after all. They arrange their business to proceed despite this certainty and to handle the inevitable as gracefully as possible. Done properly, it's a very high bar.

I'm sorry to hear Mr. Holzer has somehow stepped in the muck. In my limited experience the only way toward the best resolution involves a very serious effort to communicate between the principals. Somewhere some good will must be found and demonstrated in real and credible ways.

Rufus
duane hennon
volunteer

Joined: Sep 23, 2010
Posts: 347
    
    2


$.02

Mollison, somewhere described permaculture in terms of the martial art, aikido, a dance between man and nature where both parties are respected

others seem to approach permaculture as full contact MMA in the octogon
Pete Appleton


Joined: Apr 27, 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Appleton
Oooh - this seems an unfortunate situation! We don't have both sides, so can't come to any full conclusions - but if Holzer was employed to carry out the specified works and if it has turned out a complete disaster based on his own negligence - then he can be reasonably expected to redress the damages in some way.

From what I have read from the other consultant who later assessed the property - the site owner/manager didn't have much of a clue about permaculture or how she should be maintaining the site. This is a risk that I foresee with some people, who might hire in a Permaculture consultant and expect everything to be done with no work from themselves. Would you buy a puppy without knowing how to look after it?

Part of this seems to strike at the heart of the popular perception of permaculture: the notion that once implemented, permaculture requires no maintenance. To me, this is akin to a "get rich quick" scheme dressed in the clothing of ecological concern. The very idea is often perpetuated, but in truth there is a lot of work to be done. Yes, permaculture is a system of design intended to minimize the required work, but it does not come close to eliminating work.

Another problem stems from the commercial viability of the project. From what is claimed on the website, the financial planning was based upon assumptions of minimum to no labour costs. No maintenance, no harvesting. From my understanding, this might approximate a fair assumption on Sepp's own land - where people come from far and wide to harvest the produce themselves. What I gather from the other consultants assessment is that the produce on this particular site was intended for market - which would require harvesting. In a mixed system as Sepp devised - mechanical harvesting is not feasible, and harvesting by paid labour is more expensive than would be economical.

This is an unfortunate situation, and it would be good to get Sepp's perspective. As a case study, it does highlight a few important points - most importantly that we must not let our Permaculture dreams and ideals cloud the realities of working with nature, nor the economics of business. Finally, as has been mentioned by a few others: Sepp Holzer, David Holmgren, Bill Mollison etc etc are not God's! Do not accept all that they say with cultish impunity, or else this careful design science becomes more of a Perma-cult-ure!


Find out more at http://www.appletonpermaculture.com
$5 Permaculture Consultation, available only at: http://bit.ly/KhlBco
Matthew Nistico


Joined: Nov 20, 2010
Posts: 199
Location: Clemson, SC ("new" Zone 8a)
    
  12
@Pete - You make some very excellent points! While I suspect that we will not know (at least not anytime soon) what really happened in this particular incident between Sepp Holzer and his client, this discussion thread has morphed into something very educational to us permies in general. Though, I suspect that there is rich enough content here that anyone can take away from it whatever lessons they like. Here are a couple of the points that stand out to me as lessons...

Unfortunately, yes, people buy puppies ALL THE TIME without the slightest inkling of how to take care of them. What's worse, they do so without having yet even thought about the fact that a puppy will need taking care of at all, let alone how they plan to do it. You can never overestimate the stupidity, impulsiveness, and irresponsibility of the average person, nor the extent to which the average person is completely oblivious of this same fact. This leads to the state of the world in which dumb-asses are constantly both messing up and simultaneously looking for someone or something else to blame for it. They assume that it is natural and normal to be a dumb-ass, therefore the failures that revolve around them MUST be the fault of some external factor. This is a critically important argument in favor of Rufus' point, above, that any small business interfacing with the public - particularly with the novice public - needs to be extra-conservative and very well prepared to provide the direction and hand-holding necessary to see the project through to the end despite any number of predictable set-backs and misunderstandings.

You also hit it right on the head that the common notion that permaculture can provide a maintenance-free solution to whatever your desire might be - self-sufficiency, commercial horticulture, ecologically friendly landscaping - is very dangerous. Paul repeats this one a lot in his comments and on his podcasts. He does not of course mean it in the same way that I fear it is being taken, but the danger persists. That danger is that the message can be overgeneralized and oversimplified into a sound bite - "permaculture systems require no maintenance" - that is just begging to mislead the novice public. No experienced permaculturalist would ever suggest that permaculture can provide something for nothing. There is always going to be work. In fact, a whole lot of it during the early phases of establishment, and there will usually be some ongoing maintenance as well. True, there might be a lot LESS work than compared to conventional agriculture. And true, it might also be possible to set up a system with no maintenance beyond establishment ...IF it is the best type of permaculture design ever, and IF you are willing to accept reduced and probably continually diminishing yeilds in the long term, and IF you don't mind a totally rugged and wild aesthetic, and IF you have no other special needs for the property or unique design parameters, and so on, and so on. A lot of qualifications! None of the qualifications necessarily invalidate the starting premise, but none of them come across in the sound bite, either.


Blazing trails in disabled homesteading
Julie Helms


Joined: Dec 06, 2011
Posts: 110
Location: SC Pennsylvania, Zone 6b


Am I reading that right--she paid $88,000.00 Euros?? Wow. (That's $116,000.00 US)


http://woolyacres.wordpress.com/
Joshua Finch


Joined: Apr 23, 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Here's another $.02 from my perspective (no PDC, just learning on our own small property and time).

If my aspirations to become a permaculture designer pan out in the near future, here is something that I will make sure of.

I will absolutely refuse to design and implement for any perspective client who refuses to "go permie." Either the client has a working knowledge of permaculture or they must be willing to learn about permaculture before I would offer any sort of service. If the client has no desire to learn about permaculture and practice it, why waste precious time with them? There are plenty of other people out there who want some help transitioning.

If they don't want to do permaculture, hire someone else. There are plenty of other landscapers out there. Choose one of them.

Actually, after thinking about it, a much safer (and easier on the conscience) route would be to teach and only rarely design for others. That way, if they fail, well- they take responsibility.

Now, in this case, I still would like to see more evidence. I'm not saying Sepp Holzer could never make a huge, potentially very dangerous mistake. But I am saying, for me, that relying upon Google translate to give one side of the story isn't enough. A $100,000+ project that ends in failure like this needs full disclosure.

I do appreciate it being brought up and the discussion so far has been well worth the read.
Rufus Laggren


Joined: Feb 23, 2012
Posts: 322
Location: Chicago/San Francisco
    
    4
Human transactions are all pretty complex and way more volatile than nature; but they are more flexible and can self-heal.

The ancient Greeks probably pegged it pretty well: We all can get brought down by hubris. That and losing control to whatever glittery desire looms before us at the moment. The sirens are real and they're still out there.


Rufus
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14156
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
I spent a lot of time yesterday with Sepp and members of "Team Sepp".

I brought this up and was casually told this was old news. The woman is now in jail for this stuff and gobs of other stuff. The team sepp folks were shocked to learn that the nasty web site was still up and said they would notify the authorities. It sounds like there is a lot more information to share in this space about the particulars. One member of team sepp is gonna see if there is a link to the court decision, or maybe a link to the newspaper article that announced the outcome.



Brad Davies
volunteer

Joined: Sep 22, 2011
Posts: 212
Location: Clarkston, MI
    
    1
paul wheaton wrote:I spent a lot of time yesterday with Sepp and members of "Team Sepp".

I brought this up and was casually told this was old news. The woman is now in jail for this stuff and gobs of other stuff. The team sepp folks were shocked to learn that the nasty web site was still up and said they would notify the authorities. It sounds like there is a lot more information to share in this space about the particulars. One member of team sepp is gonna see if there is a link to the court decision, or maybe a link to the newspaper article that announced the outcome.





Glad to hear that you asked about this, I'm sure it wasn't the most comfortable thing to bring up. Just goes to show there are almost always at least 2 sides to a story, hope your having a great time talking shop with "Team Sepp".

*edit: Seriously I can't spell.


SE, MI, Zone 5b "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."
~Thomas Edison
Matthew Nistico


Joined: Nov 20, 2010
Posts: 199
Location: Clemson, SC ("new" Zone 8a)
    
  12
I can't help but admit that I am much relieved to hear that this is old news, as Paul reports. I will be very interested to read the newspaper article about the outcome of this situation, or at least about this lady's apparently multiple convictions (assuming that the article will be translated...?).
Immo Fiebrig


Joined: May 03, 2012
Posts: 1
As far as I know, Ms Barada was convicted to 20 months in jail by the highest Austrian Court in Vienna, 4 of those had actually to be served, the rest to be served in case of misbehaviour. Reason for this conviction: multiple cases of fraud and a case of arson. The second conviction consisted of a payment of 200 daily rates or jail, in case the amount of money cannot be paid, because of libel and slander against HolzerĀ“s permaculture. On the other hand Sepp Holzer has been acquitted of any of the accusations brought against him.
Hazel Reagan


Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Posts: 34
Location: SW Oregon Zone 8b
I really think that the land owner needs to take responsibility for stewardship of their land. After observing my sloping land for several years and deciding on the best method, I read Holzer Permaculture & posted a question about earth moving on this site. I did not feel comfortable because I'm clearing a forest & wanted the least disturbance as possible. Finally, I contacted Tom Ward from Siskiyou Permaculture Institute and had him do a walk through. He was very familiar with my land as he lived in the area in the 70's. He confirmed everything my intuition told me. I'm confdently and slowly putting in the paths now.
Pete Appleton


Joined: Apr 27, 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Appleton
Immo Fiebrig wrote:As far as I know, Ms Barada was convicted to 20 months in jail by the highest Austrian Court in Vienna, 4 of those had actually to be served, the rest to be served in case of misbehaviour. Reason for this conviction: multiple cases of fraud and a case of arson. The second conviction consisted of a payment of 200 daily rates or jail, in case the amount of money cannot be paid, because of libel and slander against HolzerĀ“s permaculture. On the other hand Sepp Holzer has been acquitted of any of the accusations brought against him.


Do you have a source?

Paul, I'm glad you brought this up. Allegations such as these are dangerous not only to Sepp, but to the reputation of the Permaculture movement as a whole. I am eager to see some evidence to clear this matter up - once and for all.
paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 14156
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
Pete Appleton wrote:

Do you have a source?



Immo is part of team sepp. And the author of a popular urban permaculture book in germany. Immo saw this unfold.


Pete Appleton


Joined: Apr 27, 2012
Posts: 7
Location: Appleton
paul wheaton wrote:
Pete Appleton wrote:

Do you have a source?



Immo is part of team sepp. And the author of a popular urban permaculture book in germany. Immo saw this unfold.




Then I suppose he should have better access than most to relevant court documentation so we can settle the matter once and for all.
 
 
subject: Doubts about Holzer?
 
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Paid off the mortgage.
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